Mutual Proctection..Do you sign on or not?

[Sam_Catchem]

This is my question. When are the mutual protection pacts ever any good? I have yet to see them do any thing good for me. Everytime I sign on..the fool goes and gets himself into a war and I have to go into the fray when I don't wanna! This wouldn't be so bad but the AI pick horrible targets usually. The AI goes after other civs who have these damned pacts and the next thing you know I am in WWIII! It seems if you don't come and help your alledged ally, he makes peace and then signs pact against you! Even with the other Civs he declared war on! Jerk.

Has anybody had a good experience? I like to wage war..but on my own terms. Does anybody use these pacts?

 

[Daaraa]

I use them quite frequently.

Before I do, I make sure I am prepared to end a war against another civ in 20 turns or less.
They expire in 20 turns so I'll give a quick run down of what I do..

Turn 1 Sign mutual protection pact with say France.
Turn 2 Go to war with another civ say England.
Turn 2 or 3 Sign a military alliance against England with France if they didn't declare war.

We are both at war with England and although they will get some cities, I always have a better culture so I sometimes assimilate the cities France got from England into my culture.

The war is always finished in less than 20 turns. In this case, England was the most powerful and we took them out in 10 turns. It took me 5 turns to get London.

Did the same thing last game against the Romans with the Egyptians who were "allied" with the Romans. Egypt didn;t do anything in the opening round of war and I paid them to join me. The AI has a REAL hard time fighting two fronts.

Hope this answered your questions.

 

[ironfang]

You need to be carefull on who you sign a mutual protection act with. Here are some things to consider.

- Does that country have an adequate military to defend itself?
- Does that country have the means to actually help you?
- Is that country internationaly refuted?
- Do YOU have the military power to actually act in times of war?
- Do you have a military that can defend itself in war?

Its an equation that you have to work out on your own. You need to really "think" about the benefits. Are you really ever in danger of being invaded? Do you have enemies? Has an enemy grown substatntialy more powerful?

ironfang

 

[Malys Faisent]

Mutual protect also gets you votes in the UN, if you are into that.

I've heard about the entire world declaring war on you if you nuke someone...in one game I signed a mutual protection pack with two of the three nations on a continent and proceeded to surprise nuke (no declaration of war, no nothing...just your friendly splitting atoms) the other one. Both nations that I'd signed the pack with immediately went to war and started gobbling up the other ones irradiated land.

Also, establish embassies with everyone around the person that you might be signing the pact with, make sure they aren't already at war and make sure that the other nations don't already have pacts...If England comes to you for a pact, but Germany, Russia, and France are already allied (being Englands neighbors) you might want to think about it...England could be coming to you because they are getting ready to be attacked.

 

[Bchaeus Maximus]

On medium difficulty, huge pangea world, as Babylonians, I have a great game going and I used Mutual Protection alliances and it worked Perfectly. I was ahead in science, sold it all for cash to everyone in the same turn so I would get tons of cash. Then got Mutual Protection with Japan, Zulu, and Chinese (cost some money). Then I declared war on Greece and sacked Sparta the same turn. Next turn Japan, Zulu and Chinese all declared war on Greece. China pulled the Egyptians into Military Alliance aginst Greece. and Egyptians declared war. I made MA with half the contenders.

Now greece is almost dead, and my ultimate goal was to have all the alliances in my favor so we can turn on Rome,who's been a pain in my ass the whole game. Rome also has that lovely saltpeter just two squares from one of my cities.

Only problem is the Indians on the other side of the map are fighting with everyone too and diverting the AI's attention away from Greece. This is oklay since I get all the cities, but I have no way to get to India to honor my mutual protection.

-Bchaeus Maximus

 

[Sam_Catchem]

Hmm..Thanks all. Great suggestions.

I guess I will look into signing on again. I guess I will pick better buddies.

 

[costanza]

Yes, I've had a highly successful instance with a mutual protection pact. I had the Egyptians to one side and the Romans to another; Egypt went to war with Rome and then asked for a pact. I sat there for about 5 minutes contemplating (seriously), and then decided to go with it because:

-I was closer to Rome than the Egyptians, I could go snatch some cities before they got there and joined in on the fight with reinforcements

-I was more advanced than both civs so I was pretty confident I could be successful in a war

-I didn't care about wiping Rome off the face of the earth, just pushing them back some

-It gave me an excuse to go to war and put some live ammo in the hands of soldiers who were just sitting around

-My culture was very strong (I'll explain in a minute)

-The geography of the situation lent itself to great success with my culture

-The Egyptians asked for the pact *AFTER* they were at war. So I knew what I was getting into. If it had been before, I might not have done it, or worse, be still sitting thinking about it.

The result was this: I captured 2 cities (yes just 2), but this is where the geography came into play. It split their empire in half, with the Egyptians taking both other halves. BUT, with my strong culture, the other cities switched over to me not soon after. I gained control of 7 total cities from the Romans (some after Egyptian occupation) and 2 more from Egypt's own empire because of my new far-reaching influence grew very quickly.

This is a very specific instance of success with the pact. Be very careful in considering what you're getting yourself into. Most of the time they're more trouble than they're worth. The computer uses them to their advantage, as you will often see.

 

[Sarcastro]

I enjoy using them to start wars on distant continents that I have very little contact with. I'm playing on the large Earth map, and I own Africa & the middle east. The Persians, the Iroquois, and the Zulus cover North & South America between them. I've never even had a unit over there, and don't trade much with any of them. I'm going to use diplomacy to get the three of them fighting each other, and just watch and see what happens.

Man, it's fun playing the manipulator.

 

[solarjetman]

I've found that if you share a continent with 2 competent civilizations, it's a good idea as long as you keep up militarily. It gets you into war -- but it gets you into a war where you've got an ally. By "competent" I mean not as powerful as you, but fairly close.

If nothing else, it keeps them from signing one between themselves. In fact, I believe that if you have an MPP with A, AND an MPP with B, then if A attacks B you go to war with A, and if B attacks A you go to war with B. So if 3 civs all have MPP's with each other, whoever attacks 1 civ, attacks 2 civs. So sign with both and don't attack.

With four or more civs, well, it gets complicated.

 

[Mnus]

The mutual protection pacts are one of the additions to Civ3 that I really, really love. It makes the whole game take on an aspect of pre-WW1 diplomatic conditions. And then.......the slightest little scuffle goes on between two nations, and then the whole world is at war.
:tank:

Still, as said above you have to be careful what your getting into.

Typically, I'll use these alliances to single out a country i WANT to go to war with. I'll get a protection pact with all the nations surrounding that one. That Way, I won't have to look like a warmongering bastard who strikes out of the blue. Ive had four (4!!!) civs all team up against one. At this point, the challenge of fighting becomes less trying to stay alive, and more a speed race while trying to beat your allies to the plunders of war. It CAN backfire, though, like when some other random CIv that I had no ambition to fight attacks my ally.

Anyway got aquestion that some of you might be knowledgeable on:

1.) There are 6 total rival Civs, and the world is at complete peace. You make a pact with EVERY nation. Is this even possible? has anyone done it? what the heck happened when the smoke cleared?

 

[Albert Einstain]

I made MPP with all nation in the world and then started attack. In 3 turns every nation was in a war with all others. Wild West. "Keep your a$$ safe" game. It didn't finished yet, but in this situatuin you can attack any nation without painful penalty and take whatever you want or can. Everybody in the world make their main strategic game, so if you keep your attacks to minimum (get some useful resources etc), nobody will attack you, because AI for every nation is busy thinking about how to defend in the war with 7 civs. I suggest to use this approach when you have all your cities railroad-connected and your military is strong enough to wipe out possible attackers on your tarritory. 2 strong mobile groups for each continent with artilery support is just enough .

 

[LKendter]

World wars can very much happen. I finished my first game -finally understood enough - and I saw a lot of fun like that. The first war was easy. Zululand had war declared on them by Russia, then England, then Babylon. I said, lets join the party. I take over most of Zululand. This puts me at parity for city count with the largest player. Only 2 cities are not mine. Of course, one of those is Hlobane (Coal & Iron & Rubber!).

Later on the pacts start getting signed. Russia and England vs. France (me), Germany, Babylon and Iroquis. The Iroquis never make a dent. However, it is a land rush by the other civs. I had troops marching toward a city, and suddenly the color changes. Arrggggggggggggg

It is great though. I use to play the ultimate peacenik in Civ2 and then spy my way to everything. Much more of a challenge here. Even something as simple as building a wonder comes with a risk. I love it.

 

[Starkist]

In one game of mine, I was the Chinese on a pangea. I was invading France, and doing pretty well. England asks for an alliance with me against them, and a right of passage as well. So I agree, next thing I know, England signs alliances with everybody else against France and the whole world is all there, and also, for the rest of the game, even after France is gone, I have dozens of English units patrolling my kingdom. If I annoyed them, I would have been toast.

 

[WonderPup]

One thing I've noticed is that when you are attacked, the countries you have signed a mutual defense pact with will declare war with your enemy on the *next* turn.

This can be used to your advantage. If someone declares war on you, do whatever it takes to get a mutual defense pact signed with their nearest rival. If the enemy borders you, pick someone on the opposite side of them.

I did this in a recent game, playing as the Persians. I built up a huge military early, but got sloppy in the midgame as I built all the cultural improvements. My military staffing was behind.

The Zulus decided I was ripe for the taking. They held land on the opposite side of the continent from me, and the Babylonians sat in the middle. The Zulus brought a bunch of troops through Babylonian space and sat near my border.

I didn't like the looks of it, so I sent out a couple undefended warriors to gauge their intentions. The Zulus attacked, and the war was on.

I immediately pressed the Babylonians for a defense pact. They declared war the next turn, and slammed right through all the the Zulu troops that were strung out from my border to Zululand. I had enough intel info to see how many troops were en route, and it wouldn't have been pretty if they'd made it to me. As it turned out, only a couple units snuck through.

Lessons learned: Don't let your military fall behind. If someone goes after you, get a friend right away, since they'll still declare war on your behalf the next turn.

 

[eMarkM]

Here's three situations I found MPP useful in my games.

1) Deterrent - I'm on my way to space race win as Persia and don't want war. China and France are only two real powers left and have MPP. Their combined military is better than mine and I would have hard time fighting both if they formed alliance. I sign MPP with France which prevents France from attacking and China will have war with me and France if they start hostilities. This was a good enough deterrent and I launch ship in peace.

2) Protection - Another game as Persia, I'm the 2nd most powerful nation of 3 left. Aztecs are far and away dominant military with a whole continent conquered and I dread them landing transports full of modern armor on my shores as I try for space ship win. That and they were close to a domiation victory and couldn't let them run all over Zulus. Sign MPP with Zulus to ward off possible attack, launch ship in peace.

3) Resources - England is most technologically advanced and a threat to my win, but has no oil. I want to keep it that way, but don't want to be one who starts war. Iroquois is their neighbor and has tons of oil, but very weak. Sign MPP w/ Iroquois as their protector to prevent England from getting oil. England goes for the resource, I get involved in war and take England out before they get it and start building modern units. England reduced to non-factor and I go on to launch ship.

Here's a case of MPP backfiring - signed MPP with France & Iroquois to try to position myself for diplo victory. France is my best trading partner and gracious towards me. That is, until they declare war on Iroquois and they suddenly become my enemy when I'm forced into war because of MPP with Iroquois. Ruined friendship from MPP without specific purpose. Doh!

Always have an explicit reason like above before entering MPP or you WILL be in a war you don't want.

e

 

[Agentdenton]

Omg they can be funny, The Entire World is in one MPP aginst india

 

[Crist2000]

All this mutual protection pact is. bullsh... I had this one with English. They, in turn, had this with Germans. When I started the war with Germans my foes declared war on me!

 

[ironfang]

Now I know why some countries always stay neutral. MPP's suck if you dont use them correctly. I just finished my first game/win. However, the entire 1800's was filled with war after 1 --- count it --- 1 --- MPP was initiated by the Greeks. Then it was like dominos. In the end it was eight versus three and I was one of the three. Needless to say Militarily and Industrially I was number one, and my allies were like 4 and 5 in bother realms so after a few Right of Passages with my allies... ironfang

 

[Loopy]

Originally posted by Crist2000
All this mutual protection pact is. bullsh... I had this one with English. They, in turn, had this with Germans. When I started the war with Germans my foes declared war on me!

I could be mistaken but I believe the trick is to get the Germans to make the first attack. I don't think declaring war triggers the MPP, but the first attack, you know, that "but he hit me first" mentatlity.

The other possible good side is just being bombed by a country isn't enough to trigger the MPP in their favor. For example, I was trading with the Babs who happened to have a MPP with Russia who had declared war on me and was bombing my land improvements. I was never forced into war with the Babs and our trade agreements were never interrupted.

 

[Flynn]

Here's where the variation on diplomacy in Civ3 gets fun...

4 civs in this situation: Me (French), Americans, Germans, English.
Difficulty: Regent
Map: Earth
Year: 1375 AD

As France, I have Central Europe, Turkey, the Near East and the northern half of Africa.

The Americans are split, with 4 large cities in Spain, and the rest in Scandinavia.

The English occupy the Middle East on through India and the southwest border of China, with some expansion into Indonesia.

The Germans have been pushed up into northwestern Russia.

About 150 years ago, I attacked the Americans to grab a few key cities they had along my border. I have a strong culture, but they had adjacent cities that I wanted for strategic purposes to smooth out my frontiers. I nabbed a few of their key cities to lock up Europes except for west of the Pyrennes. In my attack, I set up alliances with a number of other nations against the Americans. Well... *my* goals were achieved in about 5 moves, so I signed a peace treaty, and left the other civs to contain the Americans.

Only problem is, 100 years later, the English have now made major strides against the Americans, capturing 13 cities and just razed their capital.

Here's the trick, my original objective in attacking the Americans was to isolate their Spain holdings, so that I could culturally assimilate them. (I've got them totally surrounded by high culture cities and I have 10 metropolis cities in WLKD at this point.) They're going to flip -- it's simply a matter of time.

However, the English are now pushing the new American capital in Finland. If they take it, the capital will move back down to Spain, and I'll no longer have the assimilation opportunity.

Now, I don't really want to go to war with England at the moment. My forces are stretched rather thin, since I just gave a pounding to the Germans about 6 moves ago, (grabbed Berlin and 5 other cities in about 4 turns!) and am kicking myself since my assault on the Germans basically encouraged them to sign the alliance against the Americans. If I were still at war with them, they wouldn't have opened up the second front. If I hadn't attacked them at all, they wouldn't need the land.

So... what to do? The problem is, I want to protect the Americans, but not with an MPP, because I don't want to take on the English at the moment. (I'm waiting for Tanks and Rails.)

My solution: Shore up the English border cities with decent protection. Sign a Right-of-Passage with the Americans. Move every unit of Cavalry I can get into the American lands and cut off the English advance by just placing the units. The English can't move against the Americans because to reach them, they have to attack my units. They won't do that, because my counter will pound their border cities into dog snot, and they'll lose all that they've gained so far. I can't force the English into a peace settlement, but I *can* get in the way of their advance, so that's what I'm doing.

I've surrounded the American capital with my troops, so that the English can't advance to it. They're scurrying around on their side of the border trying to figure out what to do. The Americans are getting time to recover, and I'm their new best friend (which should make the assimilation happen easier.)

I'll keep this thread posted on the outcome. Hopefully the result will be what I want. If so, this is truly an awesome game.