This is not necessarily about the MPP but on a recent game i had there were 3 civilizations left with mine being the most productive. I had a right of passage with both of them and the whole world was railroaded. I go into military economy mode, build up about 10 tactical and 8 icbm nukes made a crapload of modern armor and proceeded to move a stack of 4-5 next to all the major cities they had. Then when i felt its time, I unleashed all hell on them, making their spaceship-making capitals the priority targets. Needless to say I totally demolished them and their reprisal was weak to say the least. Most of their artillery/airforces where out, most nukes captured and destroyed, and I had a domination victory within 10 turns. They did try to nuke me back twice, but thanks to the Missile Defense Shield they couldn't do squat. SUCKERS!!
Mutual Proctection..Do you sign on or not?
- Thread starter Sam_Catchem
- Start date
Scipio Africanu
Consul
The Mutual Pact is really only good for two things as I can see it. To either form an ally for an engagement you plan for a date within the near future (before 10 turns. This can be very useful against another "coalition" or simply a much stronger nation), or to form a pact with a ring of nations that will ensure your protection.
I find signing pacts when the AI ask me for one is usually only to the AI's benefiet as they usually will be attacked by the enemy within those 20 turns.
The Mutual Pact should change in priority as ages change. In the ancient/medievel stage turns pass so quickly that mutual protection pacts can be dropped before any engament occurs, sometimes. In the Industrial/Modern every turn can mean a difference so MPP's should only be undertaken after some deliberation over the effects it will have on your nation.
You set the mandate! don't ever follow a "friendly" AI blindly. You set your own goals and your own treaties and everything will fall into your interests.
I find signing pacts when the AI ask me for one is usually only to the AI's benefiet as they usually will be attacked by the enemy within those 20 turns.
The Mutual Pact should change in priority as ages change. In the ancient/medievel stage turns pass so quickly that mutual protection pacts can be dropped before any engament occurs, sometimes. In the Industrial/Modern every turn can mean a difference so MPP's should only be undertaken after some deliberation over the effects it will have on your nation.
You set the mandate! don't ever follow a "friendly" AI blindly. You set your own goals and your own treaties and everything will fall into your interests.
GreenLantern
From OA
I avoid MPPs and Alliances because it limits my ability to negotiate peace. I try to make my wars quick, especially because I'm using a Democracy. There doesn't appear to be a way for an Alliance to negotiate peace with a common enemy (is there?). Seems like there should be a way to do this, but since I haven't found it, I tend to avoid MPPs and Alliances altogether.
I will only ask for MPP's if I can get two or more Civs to join me in it. If it's just me and one other, when war breaks out it'll just be ugly. With two allies it's a little easier. Sometimes you can honor the MPP but just sit back and watch, taking maybe a couple key cities.
Endureth
Endureth
Spamman_Canned
Chieftain
first of all, great posts, lots of good requirements of when to sign.
In my current game (huge map, continents, max civs ) the whole world has been ripped apart due to my not-so-nice ways of getting resources i need. Im the Babylonians and i have the tech advantage and i found i had no oil or rubber inside my borders. But there were deposits of each in territory held in Iroquoi and Indian territory. They were relativly easy takes and i proceeded to modernize my army. The Iroquoi were quite a ways away and not a problem. the Indians, while not militarily powerfull, managed to bring in a few other civs in subsequent turns. Even my immediate neighbors, the romans, signed a trade embargo against me.
Looking to relieve some pressure i made a pact with the Zulus ( had to give quite a bit ). Once they were on my side they brought the Germans, Romans, and Aztecs into the war as well.
Everyone else is involed in one way or another and im pleased with throwing the world into chaos for my own gains
In my current game (huge map, continents, max civs ) the whole world has been ripped apart due to my not-so-nice ways of getting resources i need. Im the Babylonians and i have the tech advantage and i found i had no oil or rubber inside my borders. But there were deposits of each in territory held in Iroquoi and Indian territory. They were relativly easy takes and i proceeded to modernize my army. The Iroquoi were quite a ways away and not a problem. the Indians, while not militarily powerfull, managed to bring in a few other civs in subsequent turns. Even my immediate neighbors, the romans, signed a trade embargo against me.
Looking to relieve some pressure i made a pact with the Zulus ( had to give quite a bit ). Once they were on my side they brought the Germans, Romans, and Aztecs into the war as well.
Everyone else is involed in one way or another and im pleased with throwing the world into chaos for my own gains
Ohwell
Deity
I usually will sign a MPP with 2 civilizations that already have one with eachother, also Right of passage, and trading. This ensures they will not declare war on eachother, Righ now as the Germans I am allied with the Russians and English, and they are with eachother.
something else I noticed about MPP.. in my current game, I'm the most powerful civ on earth (like my power histograph is ~ 2x that of the strongest AI civ...), and I have MPP with 2 of the weaker civs (france and england). What I noticed is that, unlike my previous games, world wars 1..10 didn't break out when nationalism appeared. No one attacked me, nor my 2 allies (wow! the AI actually saw they had MPP with me so they didn't attack them!)... So it kinda kept the world mostly peaceful...
I guess it also depends on the civs that are present in the world (here it was Germany - me! - England, France, India - beaten to 1 city only by me - , Russia - destroyed by me, China, Egypt *those two MPP with each other*, zulu, persia, rome, iroquois). The only wars that broke out after I crushed the Indians was between Egypt/China and Iroquois... Nothing more really. Egypt got France into it (probably hoping hte MPP would get me involved so I could crush iroquois?), but they never got attacked and peace returned..
all this to say they can be useful into maintaining relative peace, or to create endless world wars
I guess it also depends on the civs that are present in the world (here it was Germany - me! - England, France, India - beaten to 1 city only by me - , Russia - destroyed by me, China, Egypt *those two MPP with each other*, zulu, persia, rome, iroquois). The only wars that broke out after I crushed the Indians was between Egypt/China and Iroquois... Nothing more really. Egypt got France into it (probably hoping hte MPP would get me involved so I could crush iroquois?), but they never got attacked and peace returned..
all this to say they can be useful into maintaining relative peace, or to create endless world wars
How about this?
I'm Germany....far ahead in culture but lagging a bit militarily. In fact, England is starting to run away with things in the Power department. Unfortunately, I can't attack England head on (suicide) and asking others to attack England is pretty futile.
So what do I do? England, with their superior military (in size, not in tech) is running all over my territory in order to reach Russia and China, so I keep asking them EVERY turn to leave my territory. Gradually they get more and more peeved, and once they reach "annoyed", I sign MPPs with France, Rome, and Egypt (at a fairly heavy, but manageable, cost). Next turn? Ask England to leave my territory, they say no and attack me.
Now the Russia/China vs. England has turned into Russia/China/Rome/France/Egypt/Germany vs. England. Amazingly it didn't kill them, but it definitely brought them back in line with everyone else...and I got 3 cities out of it too
I'm Germany....far ahead in culture but lagging a bit militarily. In fact, England is starting to run away with things in the Power department. Unfortunately, I can't attack England head on (suicide) and asking others to attack England is pretty futile.
So what do I do? England, with their superior military (in size, not in tech) is running all over my territory in order to reach Russia and China, so I keep asking them EVERY turn to leave my territory. Gradually they get more and more peeved, and once they reach "annoyed", I sign MPPs with France, Rome, and Egypt (at a fairly heavy, but manageable, cost). Next turn? Ask England to leave my territory, they say no and attack me.
Now the Russia/China vs. England has turned into Russia/China/Rome/France/Egypt/Germany vs. England. Amazingly it didn't kill them, but it definitely brought them back in line with everyone else...and I got 3 cities out of it too
One time I was 3rd in power, and I saw the Iroquois (#1) build a huge military force just outside my border. I definately did not want a war at that time, as the city they were outside was my scienitfic center with Newton's and Copernicus. I contacted Hiawatha and negotiated a MPP, the troops turned around and went home.
EvilTyranny
Chieftain
I played a game not too long ago as the Germans in which Mutual Protection Pacts served me well. I started off on a continent by myself, to the south were the Babylonians and French who shared one of their own, but decided that wasn't good enough so did that annoying thing where they build cities in every nook and cranny of your continent. I got ticked off so war ensued and I expelled them from my continent.
Babylong had a higher culture value than me so I had to starve the cities I took from them to one and razed one of them, thereby making them bitter as hell. Soon after the French built another city on one free square in my north where there was absolutely nothing of any value so I had hoped no one would build there. I went to war and drove them off, Babylon joined them, then so did Rome (the most powerful country on the planet).
The French and the Romans launched an invasion at a very confusing point, confusing because it served no strategic value whatsoever. I beat them back eventually and managed to grab an important American colony (turned out to have coal and rubber) on an island off my coast.
I made peace eventually and the world was well (except I managed to make a rift between France and Babylon and war ravaged their border landscape). I was approaching the technology to build Panzers so I was strategizing an invasion of France followed by an invasion of Babylon. Originally I planned to attack Babylon but then they cozied up to me and signed a mutual protection pact with me, so I changed plans to attack France.
My attack on France was a stunning success and I was quickly in a position to invade Babylon. Babylon must have been aware of my two-pronged invasion as they signed multiple protection pacts with other powers (Russia, Japan and China). I signed my own Mutual Protection Pacts with Russia, America and China (as Russia depended on me for all its war materials and China and I had a long time good standing relationship) and declared war on Babylon. I landed my forces on their northern shore and moved my armies accross their southern border and waited for them to attack me. They did and Russia and China honoured their pact with me and declared war on Babylon, thereby stabbing them in the back.
Japan and I had been involved in wars for a long time so I had no qualms about renewing our battles, but then I also enlisted Rome (still the most powerful on the world) and a massive world war ensued that lasted through the space race and beyond.
Babylon fell and Japan conquered its neighbour, America. My coalition then invaded Japan and ravaged the nation, Japan saw itself isolated with almost its entire infrastructure destroyed. The coalition razed and destroyed all the former American cities and many Japanese cities, thereby debilitating them.
Peace settled in eventually (much slower for the rest of the world). I came out of it all as the richest, most powerful nation with the greatest culture on the planet... But then Rome surprise attacked me and the world really got weird then.
Babylong had a higher culture value than me so I had to starve the cities I took from them to one and razed one of them, thereby making them bitter as hell. Soon after the French built another city on one free square in my north where there was absolutely nothing of any value so I had hoped no one would build there. I went to war and drove them off, Babylon joined them, then so did Rome (the most powerful country on the planet).
The French and the Romans launched an invasion at a very confusing point, confusing because it served no strategic value whatsoever. I beat them back eventually and managed to grab an important American colony (turned out to have coal and rubber) on an island off my coast.
I made peace eventually and the world was well (except I managed to make a rift between France and Babylon and war ravaged their border landscape). I was approaching the technology to build Panzers so I was strategizing an invasion of France followed by an invasion of Babylon. Originally I planned to attack Babylon but then they cozied up to me and signed a mutual protection pact with me, so I changed plans to attack France.
My attack on France was a stunning success and I was quickly in a position to invade Babylon. Babylon must have been aware of my two-pronged invasion as they signed multiple protection pacts with other powers (Russia, Japan and China). I signed my own Mutual Protection Pacts with Russia, America and China (as Russia depended on me for all its war materials and China and I had a long time good standing relationship) and declared war on Babylon. I landed my forces on their northern shore and moved my armies accross their southern border and waited for them to attack me. They did and Russia and China honoured their pact with me and declared war on Babylon, thereby stabbing them in the back.
Japan and I had been involved in wars for a long time so I had no qualms about renewing our battles, but then I also enlisted Rome (still the most powerful on the world) and a massive world war ensued that lasted through the space race and beyond.
Babylon fell and Japan conquered its neighbour, America. My coalition then invaded Japan and ravaged the nation, Japan saw itself isolated with almost its entire infrastructure destroyed. The coalition razed and destroyed all the former American cities and many Japanese cities, thereby debilitating them.
Peace settled in eventually (much slower for the rest of the world). I came out of it all as the richest, most powerful nation with the greatest culture on the planet... But then Rome surprise attacked me and the world really got weird then.
Exocet
Chieftain
I generally sign a MPP with a particular nation to prevent them from declaring war on me if I have plans to attack one of their neighbours. And, as a rule, I regret doing it every time.
I wish when signing the deal, I could choose how many turns it lasted for (with a minumum of say.. 5, to be fair.) Ditto goes for trade agreements.
I wish when signing the deal, I could choose how many turns it lasted for (with a minumum of say.. 5, to be fair.) Ditto goes for trade agreements.
zebomba
Warlord
Never sign when the AI asks, bc they do it for their advantage.
Also, sign MPPs with extreme care. I was just out of a 20 turn war under democracy, so the folks were right over the line.
Then, my MPP ducked me: I was brought to that war again, and now I can't even negotiate peace. Well, since my army is just huge, I guess it's time to the communist kick some butt
.
Also, sign MPPs with extreme care. I was just out of a 20 turn war under democracy, so the folks were right over the line.
Then, my MPP ducked me: I was brought to that war again, and now I can't even negotiate peace. Well, since my army is just huge, I guess it's time to the communist kick some butt
.
I am very careful about MPPs. Never sign when AI asks--they have a reason, just As I do if I ask them to sign...
Having MPPs in place was probably got me elected in a UN victory.
In my last game, however, it all went crazy. I was going for a domination victory, and aquiring land and cities. I took most of Russia, and thrn granted her peace to give myself a break, and recover from war Weariness. She only had 4 major cities left, and a few outlying villages. I took her source of rubber and oil, so I knew she would not likely come back. Then a few turns later, she signed MPP with China, and declared war on Babylon. Then on England. Then on Germany. Then on America. I decided, I better get back in the action to get someof the spoils.
As soon as it was over (eliminated Russia) America declared war on me. No apparant reason. So I signed with China and Germany--they were glad to sign. Signed with England, for a hefty price. They all declared war on America, and generally mopped up that nation.
England attacked China and my MPP kicked in, so I had to go to war with England.
No choice offered, but i had mpp with both.
So I (Japan) attacked England, England was fighting America and now me and China. China came to my aid against England as well as America, and Germany also went after England.
Even Aztec, long at odds with me, but never war, came in against England.
The whole world was at war with somebody.
She had a huge fleet of Men-of-war, and was laying waste to my coast, then ducking into port. So I sent a few units over, and captured that port, and watches 11 large ships give up the ghost.
It was all over but the shouting, and that same turn my Culture won the game.
Having MPPs in place was probably got me elected in a UN victory.
In my last game, however, it all went crazy. I was going for a domination victory, and aquiring land and cities. I took most of Russia, and thrn granted her peace to give myself a break, and recover from war Weariness. She only had 4 major cities left, and a few outlying villages. I took her source of rubber and oil, so I knew she would not likely come back. Then a few turns later, she signed MPP with China, and declared war on Babylon. Then on England. Then on Germany. Then on America. I decided, I better get back in the action to get someof the spoils.
As soon as it was over (eliminated Russia) America declared war on me. No apparant reason. So I signed with China and Germany--they were glad to sign. Signed with England, for a hefty price. They all declared war on America, and generally mopped up that nation.
England attacked China and my MPP kicked in, so I had to go to war with England.
No choice offered, but i had mpp with both.
So I (Japan) attacked England, England was fighting America and now me and China. China came to my aid against England as well as America, and Germany also went after England.
Even Aztec, long at odds with me, but never war, came in against England.
The whole world was at war with somebody.
She had a huge fleet of Men-of-war, and was laying waste to my coast, then ducking into port. So I sent a few units over, and captured that port, and watches 11 large ships give up the ghost.
It was all over but the shouting, and that same turn my Culture won the game.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2001
- Messages
- 3,136
I love MPPs!!
They can be really powerful. In one game, I was pretty bored and advanced and rich.(a deadly combination). So, i looked to my foreign advisor screen to try to find trouble. I realized that China, Greece, America, Japan, and India all had some MPP connection with eachother.(chain effect) So, I got england, zululand, Iroquois, and Germany(me) connected with MPPs. So, next turn I declared war on India. In 1-2 turns every civ was at war with at least 4 other civs.
The world war was really fun and lasted from 1780AD to 1995AD. Eventually, my side killed Greece, Japan, and China; we dismantled India and destroyed several American cities. Unfortunately
, my side lost the Iroquois and Zulu.
In about 20 more turns, the war started again with me and England on one side against India and America.(same Mpp arrangement as before, but less complex) This time we slaughtered India and then after england wussed out
I rushed Washington and razed the size 23 city with 4 wonders to the ground. The Americans sued for peace so I sent them to war with England. They killed england and I killed them with a gigantic nuclear strike and advanced armor invasion!!!
They can be really powerful. In one game, I was pretty bored and advanced and rich.(a deadly combination). So, i looked to my foreign advisor screen to try to find trouble. I realized that China, Greece, America, Japan, and India all had some MPP connection with eachother.(chain effect) So, I got england, zululand, Iroquois, and Germany(me) connected with MPPs. So, next turn I declared war on India. In 1-2 turns every civ was at war with at least 4 other civs.
The world war was really fun and lasted from 1780AD to 1995AD. Eventually, my side killed Greece, Japan, and China; we dismantled India and destroyed several American cities. Unfortunately
, my side lost the Iroquois and Zulu.In about 20 more turns, the war started again with me and England on one side against India and America.(same Mpp arrangement as before, but less complex) This time we slaughtered India and then after england wussed out
I rushed Washington and razed the size 23 city with 4 wonders to the ground. The Americans sued for peace so I sent them to war with England. They killed england and I killed them with a gigantic nuclear strike and advanced armor invasion!!! Exocet
Chieftain
Gonzo, that story brought a tear to my eye 
slothman
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,223
Once me - Rome - Greece, and France all had MPP with each other. Then suddenly France attacked me. Greece joined the fight and I got badly needed wines and France out of the way. It was wierd that a MPP nation attacked an ally. Like the U.S. attacking Canada, and England joining Canada's, or the attacked, side.
my best experience was that to sign a MPP on the first turn after some one declares war on you. in one game, i had tons of modern armors and mech. infantries, and 40 something nukes. but still England came to ask for a tech, of course i refused, and then England declared war on me. so I went to France and signed a MPP with the cost of a tech advance, then on next turn france was fight England with me. MPP seems cheaper to me than the military alliance.
I have had a lot of trouble with two aspects of MPP's - First is that they don't seem to end after twenty turns, several times I was drawn into some war way after the thing should have expired. (Do they automatically renew unless canceled somehow?) Second - according to the handbook the MPP only comes into play if the other party is attacked. However, again several times the civ I was in the MPP with attacked someone else, and the game automatically put me in a state of war with the civ that my ally attacked.
Anybody else seen this, or am I doing something wrong?
Anybody else seen this, or am I doing something wrong?
Dralix
Killer of threads
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2001
- Messages
- 2,407
Treaties and trade agreements do not automatically expire after their 20 turns, with the exception of initial peace treaties. To cancel an agreement, open the trade screen and at the bottom of the middle panel, click Active. This will give you a list of your active agreements, with a number in parentheses indicating how many turns remain before it can be cancelled peacefully. To cancel the treaty, click on it and it will be placed "on the table." Then, simply remove it from the table.
It has been my experience that more often than not, the AI cancels most agreements after 20 turns, but if they don't, you can.
I'm playing a tiny map, 4 civs total, of course. I randomed the landform, and got continents.
Started out with me(randomed India), Egypt, and Babylon on one larger continent, and Greece all alone on a smaller one. Well, to make a long story short, after some maneuvering and sneak attacks by Babylon, all that is left is me on my continent, and Greece on theirs. So, I signed an MPP with Greece, and he's *gracious* now. I have a 4-tech lead and I am two turns from building the tanks/transports/infantry to take him out. Of course an MPP with two factions in the game is perfectly safe.
(Î would do the space race, since he's being so nice, but I want more war experience, and have yet to have a domination victory)
Also, pulled a neat move in the war with Babylon. I had gotten them down to five cities on the end of the continent, and got a great leader. I immediately took him to the city positioned perfectly for an FP, and made it the next turn. That finished Babylon, as all of a sudden, *all* of my cities could produce units quickly, not just the ones at the other end with the palace. He wouldn't talk to me at all for a while after he declared war, but, with one city left, he calls begging for peace. I had a stack of 8 longbows, 2 war elephants, and 6 catapults sitting at the gates of his only city. I wrote Hammurabi a short message: "You chose unwisely. Goodbye." :rocket:
I guess this means I *could* ROP-rape the Greeks when I'm ready, since there's no one to penalize me for it, but I won't. I'll just load about 7-10 transports full of military hardware, position them outside his sea borders, cancel the ROP/MPP one turn, and declare war the next, and land the troops. I know the ROP-rape one-turn war is easy, but I feel like it violates the spirit of the game. Way too cheesy for me. What you do in your own game is your business, but when/if MP ever comes, you can guarantee the first person to do that to me will die screaming in the next game I play with them.
Also, the AI will never do that to you as a planned, calculated move. Maybe some troops will be in your territory by accident if an MPP triggers them to declare war on you, but that's about all.
Started out with me(randomed India), Egypt, and Babylon on one larger continent, and Greece all alone on a smaller one. Well, to make a long story short, after some maneuvering and sneak attacks by Babylon, all that is left is me on my continent, and Greece on theirs. So, I signed an MPP with Greece, and he's *gracious* now. I have a 4-tech lead and I am two turns from building the tanks/transports/infantry to take him out. Of course an MPP with two factions in the game is perfectly safe.
(Î would do the space race, since he's being so nice, but I want more war experience, and have yet to have a domination victory)
Also, pulled a neat move in the war with Babylon. I had gotten them down to five cities on the end of the continent, and got a great leader. I immediately took him to the city positioned perfectly for an FP, and made it the next turn. That finished Babylon, as all of a sudden, *all* of my cities could produce units quickly, not just the ones at the other end with the palace. He wouldn't talk to me at all for a while after he declared war, but, with one city left, he calls begging for peace. I had a stack of 8 longbows, 2 war elephants, and 6 catapults sitting at the gates of his only city. I wrote Hammurabi a short message: "You chose unwisely. Goodbye." :rocket:
I guess this means I *could* ROP-rape the Greeks when I'm ready, since there's no one to penalize me for it, but I won't. I'll just load about 7-10 transports full of military hardware, position them outside his sea borders, cancel the ROP/MPP one turn, and declare war the next, and land the troops. I know the ROP-rape one-turn war is easy, but I feel like it violates the spirit of the game. Way too cheesy for me. What you do in your own game is your business, but when/if MP ever comes, you can guarantee the first person to do that to me will die screaming in the next game I play with them.
Also, the AI will never do that to you as a planned, calculated move. Maybe some troops will be in your territory by accident if an MPP triggers them to declare war on you, but that's about all.
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