My Huge Sid Milk Run

[Chamnix]

The first game described in this thread has been abandoned - for the current game, start on page 3.

Computer death caused the death of attempt #2. Before you start reading, be warned that the games in this thread were never finished.

A little over a year has passed since I submitted my huge deity histographic and swore I would never milk a huge map again, and I’ve started another one . I think I’m a better player now then I was when I started that one, and I learned a lot about milking from that game, so I’ve had this nagging feeling that I could do better, and I have finally given in. Besides, I thought I should have a game that was better documented than my first one. I thought about going for deity again, but I was afraid that I would have this nagging feeling that I could score higher on Sid , so I thought I might as well bite the bullet and hopefully this will be last one .

My tribe: Iroquois
Rivals: Russia, America, Aztecs, Zulu, Mongols, Ottomans, Babylon, and Inca – all the expansionist tribes that don’t start with Alphabet since it would be a barbless archipelago, the Ottomans so someone would get Polytheism early, and I have no idea why the Aztecs and the Babylonians are in there.
Huge, 60% water, archipelago
Warm, Wet, 5 billion years old
No barbarians
Respawn, SGLs on.
Less Aggressive AI
Sid Level

Domination Limit = 4326

I don’t have any delusions about being able to beat Moonsinger’s score or even breaking 80K, but I’d like to think 70K (maybe 75K?) is within my range. We’ll see…

 

[Chamnix]

I’ve played many starts, but I finally have one that I am planning to continue beyond 1000 BC. The start:



The capital generally started with a settler then a granary without any warriors. Ideally (as in this game), my second city was coastal and could push out a few curraghs for exploration. I would set up the capital as a 4-turn settler factory, and eventually it would become a 4-turn warrior plus settler factory so I could finally explore land and build some MPs for the race to Philosophy. Research was Writing at the minimum. My first progress check came at turn 50 when Writing completed:





9 cities
22 citizens
9 workers
4 curraghs
6 warriors

4 contacts with embassies with each.

After Writing completed, it was full speed to Philosophy generally completed around turn 70. At that point I would trade up through Polytheism and select Monarchy. Once out of anarchy, I would start lots of phony wars some tied with peace treaties to try to keep the tech pace under control and for some war happiness – I want my people to be ecstatic the entire game . I will just have to be very careful to make sure the sides are balanced so no AI becomes a runaway.

As of 1000 BC:



19 cities
60 citizens
2 settlers
34 workers
6 mounted warriors
13 warriors
10 catapults
2 curraghs

It was well below average in terms of city count, but above average in terms of citizens + workers which is my primary yardstick. I have contact with all rivals already and embassies everywhere. Not shown on F4 are the Babylonians who haven’t met anyone else yet:





As you can see I am borrowing quite liberally from the Zulu and using their money to rush military. I kind of regret tying the alliance with them to a peace treaty, since they have 2 luxuries to trade to me, but at least if they declare, I will get my money back. I’d like to cancel that alliance ASAP and then go to work on the Americans. One of the nice features of this map is that I have a very narrow front with the American:



Throw in the facts that the Russians will be signed in against them from their other side, I have no tribe that can attack my back from land, and the Americans lack iron, and it should be a winnable first war (although it might take a few more than 6 mounted warriors ).

Notes for next turn set – build some spears to put behind walls in my frontline cities since the Americans have horses. Build 3 swordsmen to be ready for my first army (armies with defense of 1 go obsolete too fast). Trap American spear/settler pair inside my territory so I can get them to declare on me during my turn.

I will wait to complete Literature until all wonder cascades are finished, and the Americans are the only ones I will give it to. I’d like them to build me the Great Library, so I don’t have to research until late in the game. I’d build it myself, but I want to be able to give it away and take it back, so I don’t want to use a productive town on it.

 

[Aigburth]

I was wondering why you had been quiet in the gauntlets recently, not that I'm complaining

Best of luck, I will be following this with great interest.

 

[Bartleby]

Good luck.

 

[Marsden]

I agree with the Englishman in Cork.

 

[Calis]

I subscibed to this thread and will follow it closely...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The greatest test of Civ III ability is the huge sid milkrun, at least in my opinion. It's also the greatest test of Civ endurance

 

[Chamnix]

Thanks everyone . I guess this means I actually have to go through with this game now .

The next turns were already slowing down. I was struggling to stay solvent with all the gpt I was spreading around. Even with both sliders at 0%, I was at negative gpt. Every turn I had to change a bunch of citizens to taxmen to get my gpt positive temporarily, borrow all the gold in the world, and then put my citizens back to work on the tiles where I wanted them (and of course spend most of the money I collected keeping only a 1 turn cushion).

In 925 BC, the Zulu discovered Currency to become the first tribe to enter the Middle Ages. In the post 925 turn, the Aztecs and Mongols signed peace causing the Aztecs to declare on me for my first dose of war happiness. Unfortunately, although I had borrowed some from the Aztecs, they had been a net donor to my treasury.

In 900 BC, I also signed peace with the Mongols as long as they promised to go back to war with the Aztecs. I had to throw in Map Making, but we had a deal. I discovered Literature intending to give it to the Americans to build the Great Library for me, but instead this happens:



I wasn’t planning to build the Great Library myself because I would have to use a productive town, and I might eventually want to give the Great Library away to recapture later. Now I could build it myself in a town that I wouldn’t mind giving away. I thought about saving the SGL, but I didn’t see anything else useful coming. I would have built the Temple of Artemis in a second if that had been available, and of course the Pyramids were long gone by then.

All Ancient Age wonders except the Great Library had been built, and I didn’t think any of the early Middle Age wonders were that important to me, so the Great Library it would be. I just didn’t have any really crappy towns to put it in yet. My worst 2 towns were 63% and 59% corrupt without the Forbidden Palace even being completed yet, and one of those towns had horses and the other incense. I decided to build the Great Library in Ganogeh.



Having Literature in hand was also comforting because it gave me a way out of my economic crisis if necessary since the Zulu would pay top dollar for it. That was a very good thing because as of 900 BC, even with every citizen as a taxman and both sliders at 0%, I could only manage a paltry +5 gpt. I wasn’t ready for the tech race to accelerate yet, so I wanted to keep the secret of building libraries to myself, but by 850 BC, I had to declare bankruptcy. Even with every citizen a taxman and both sliders at 0%, I was at -2 gpt, so everyone thought I was a bad risk, and I couldn’t borrow any more. I had to sell Literature to the Zulu for 350 gold and 30 gpt for a much needed cash injection to keep the financial system solvent .

In 800 BC, all my original alliances/peace treaties ended. I resigned peace with the Zulu (we had peace and an alliance tied together), and I had to pay 9 gpt for the privilege. I ended my alliance with America against Russia saving 19 gpt. I gave the Ottomans 6 gpt for peace. With the Incans I renewed my alliance against Russia tied with a peace treaty again – the Incans should still be good for war happiness eventually.

With 17 mounted warriors, 16 catapults, and 3 spearmen (and assorted regular warriors being used as MP), I was just about ready to take on a Sid AI – war vs. the Americans will start soon…

 

[Marsden]

Thanks everyone . I guess this means I actually have to go through with this game now .

Yes, if you don't will hunt you down like a dog.

 

[Chamnix]

In 750 BC, the Aztecs declared on the Incans. The Zulu completed Feudalism making them 2 techs ahead of everybody else (Currency and Feudalism). I will have to keep a close watch on them .

In 730 BC, my spearmen had reached the front lines. My military:



I made several unreasonable demands to Abe, and then I told the Americans to get out of my territory, and they chose to declare war instead. I killed the spear guarding the settler and snagged another worker giving me 3 slaves, took Portland, and started my Golden Age. Ottomans and Zulu signed peace.

The Americans started with just 9 horses entering my territory in the first turn. I killed 8 of them without a single casualty (and without a single promotion), but I left the ninth because it was in a forest I didn’t want to lose a mounted warrior on the counterattack. Back on the home front, I started adding lots of workers to cities and get several core towns to 30 spt, and my Forbidden Palace completed. I really took too long with that - I should have added workers to my Forbidden Palace town earlier.

On the IBT, my spear killed 2 AI horses before dying to a third.

690 BC – killed another 4 American horses without loss gaining my first 2 elites.

IBT – my spear killed 2 horses and retreated a third before dying. The first American ancient cavalry comes into my territory (oops – forgot about the Statue of Zeus!).

670 BC – Killed 9 horses and 1 AC without loss. Gained 1 promotion to elite, and on my first(!) elite victory:



All the good luck wishes helped - I certainly can’t complain about my luck. I got an SGL with a non-scientific tribe on my 4th monopoly tech and now a leader on my first elite victory. I still didn’t have swords (I hadn’t hooked up my iron yet ). My second elite victory of the turn didn’t yield a second leader .

650 BC – There were only 3 AI units in my territory this turn. I killed a spear and a horse without loss, but left the archer alone since he is by himself in a forest. I picked up 2 more elite wins and pulled out the "Bikini Babe" trick. I left a settler unguarded just out of the AI's reach, so they would come forward into my catapult range instead of just attacking my cities.





630 BC – The Americans discovered Currency and were the second tribe to enter the Middle Ages which meant I would finally get Currency from the Great Library. I started changing core builds to what will end up as marketplaces. Again there were only 4 Americans in my territory – I planned to move forward next turn. I killed 3 more AI units without loss including 1 elite victory.

610 BC – Aztecs and Russia also reached the Middle Ages. Russia got Monotheism for free. Zulu already had Feudalism. 7 Americans in my territory – killed 6 without casualty (2 with elites) and left 1 in the forest again. I still had 14 healthy mounted warriors, so I attacked Los Angeles:



LA was guarded by 5 spears and 2 archers, but I took it with only 1-2 mounted warriors lost (and gained another promotion to elite) and captured a catapult. In general, I expect to raze most AI cities for slaves and to avoid culture flip problems, but LA was only size 1 so I kept it.

I finally got my iron hooked up, but now I am building markets instead of swords so my army will stay empty a little longer .

America is kind of an oddly shaped country. I don’t know if America and Russia are connected a second time to the east or not. All my curraghs have already been sunk by tribes I declared war on. I definitely want at least one source of gems. I think I’ll try to find a choke point near Detroit and then have the bulk of my military go north. It will be slow going through all that crappy land, but the Pyramids are in Moscow, so once I get my gems, I am heading there.

 

[Spoonwood]

Chamnix,

You mentioned your science slider earlier. What do you have your luxury slider at?

 

[Chamnix]

0% - I had 2 native luxuries, 2 luxuries from a trade with the Zulu, 2 sources of war happiness (once the Americans declared), and enough MPs that every city was content without luxury spending.

At some point I may raise the luxury slider just to increase score, but for now I think the gold is more important.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

what is your score now? just curious.

and, why respawn on? I would think that would just make it tougher...

 

[Chamnix]

I'll have to get back to you about the score when I get home, but I'll try to include it in the next update.

I've never played with respawn on, so I don't know if it was a good idea or not, but I remember reading about farming respawns for extra slaves and gold and even extra cities. I'm kind of acting on the assumption that if I really want someone dead, then I will be able to make sure there are no available respawn locations, but I wanted the option of trying to farm.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

nods.

I once played a demigod conquest game to near the end before realizing I had respawn on. That sucked.

 

[ignas]

Looks like you're very lucky (SGL and early MGL) and doing pretty well. Good luck!

I've also started one with different strategy a bit (using Republic and doing self research after GL expires as Maya).

 

[Chamnix]

Thanks ignas. Good luck in your game also! Keep us posted...

The way this game is going, I may not use the Great Library takeback either. I expect to have to research at least Chemistry, Metallury, and Military Tradition myself, and the tech pace has been slow so far, so I don't know if it is worth trying to use the AI for research yet.

The top scores are all with Maya. They are probably a better choice, but I don't know how to play them. I've never been good with the javelin throwers, and it just seems to take forever to get out of despotism with them so I stuck with my comfort zone instead.

I also struggle too much with Republic on high levels in war games. The sheer quantity of units needed and the number of casualties you have make Republic difficult to manage for me. I'm sure Republic is also objectively a better choice, but I just don't feel comfortable with it.

 

[Chamnix]

On the 610 IBT, America tried to take back LA with 3 horses. They redlined my spear and killed 1 mounted warrior, but my units took down 2 horses with them. There were 10 Americans in my territory, and most of my catapults were out of range, but I could move 3 spearmen in there for the next IBT so I felt comfortable that I could hold LA.



I cleaned up all Americans in my territory, but it cost me 3 mounted warriors without the catapults nearby. I got 1 more elite victory and 1 more promotion to elite. My Bikini Babe drifted toward LA to be just out of the AI’s reach again.

My war happiness from the Americans ended. I had to spend on luxuries for the first time in a while to keep my size 12 cities happy, but in a couple of turns, they will all have marketplaces and won’t need luxury spending again.

On the IBT, the Incans demanded Literature . Of course I turned them down, but then they don’t declare . Americans attacked LA again – I lost 2 of my spears but took 2 horses with me. I should have rushed walls the previous turn, but I thought the Americans were running out of steam, and LA wouldn’t be on the front lines that long, but they came up with another 12 units to move into my territory.

This time my catapults were ready for them, and I killed all 12 without loss, including 2 more elite victories and 1 more promotion to elite.

570 BC – The Americans seemed to be running out of gas again – only 1 horse attacked (fought off by a spearman) and only 3 units in my territory. I just completed my first swordsman so my army will finally be used. Marketplaces completed in all large towns, so luxury spending goes off again and could probably stay off until milk phase.

I easily fought off the 3 Americans with 3 elites and still had plenty of healthy units so moved toward Detroit. I regretted moving toward Detroit right after I did it. I don’t like my chances of crossing 2 flat tiles to get my catapults within range. I’ll probably just retreat those units next turn and wait for my army.



Score at 550 BC = 1238

 

[Chamnix]

The Americans still seemed to have an awful lot of horses that I could see running through their territory. They killed another spearman and 2-3 mounted warriors. My stack had to return home and wait for the army.

The Ottomans made it to the Middle Ages and got Feudalism as their free tech, and the Aztecs also learned Feudalism, so there was no point in loading my army with swords – next turn I would just upgrade them to MDI.

I tacked on 2 more elite wins and got another promotion in killing American horses.

The hapless Babylonians still hadn’t even met anybody, so I decided to bring them into the Middle Ages in the hope of getting a free Engineering, and it worked! I gave them Republic and Monarchy for Engineering, and Engineering turned out to be quite lucrative:





I also sold Engineering to the Ottomans for all of their 20 gold and 14 gpt. Even if the Zulu and the Ottomans could not afford Engineering, I would have given it to them anyway. I wanted the AI to research Invention and Gunpowder for me before the Great Library expired.

After that deal, I had cash to burn. Any decent sized city got a marketplace short-rushed using a courthouse. Unfortunately, I had already moved my catapults so it was too late to upgrade to trebbies this turn, but next turn would be fine.

510 BC – I upgraded my 3 swords to MDIs, one spear to a pike, and a bunch of catapults to trebuchets. I had 5 more elite wins and nothing to show for them. I got my first army quickly and haven’t used it, and then I got into a leader drought. I started to prebuild the Heroic Epic in anticipation of any army victory.

I learned Monotheism from the Great Library IBT. My brand new pikeman easily fought off the American horses. The Americans started sending galleys down my eastern coast – I don’t know where the landing spot will be yet, but I had so many cities producing mounted warriors either every turn or every other turn that there wasn’t any need for a rear guard.

490 BC – I loaded my 3-MDI army and start it to the front. I won another 5 elite victories but no love. By my count that makes 21 consecutive elite wins without a leader since I got one on my first try.

IBT the Americans learned Feudalism, but they still didn’t have iron.

470 BC – My army reached the frontlines so next turn I could start approaching Detroit. All 5 elite mounted warriors won again extending my streak to 26 elite victories without a leader.

The Mongols faithfully kept our alliance against the Aztecs for 20 turns. I promised to give them another 20 turns of peace as long as they kept fighting.

I seem to have lost a bit of focus lately. It was stupid not make getting the army involved earlier a priority. I’ve killed lots of American units, but I’ve made no progress. I need more territory and more luxuries fast.

Score at 470 BC = 1345

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The american's are probably creating 2-3 turn horsemen in their core right now - it may well be that you aren't making any real dent in the number of units they have