My take on the game, and a few suggestions

Mylon

Amateur Game Designer
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Nov 4, 2005
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Now that I've actually finished a game (a few unsuccessful multiplayer trials), I'd like to make a few suggestions about the game.

Buildings in late game. This becomes really tedious later on when there are so many buildings to build. I would suggest some national wonders that grant the earlier buildings for new/conquered cities. Like obelisks, carnivals, later on, inns, etc. On the other hand, the cost for some buildings is a bit weird. Machinist shop costs 200 hammers, but only gives +10% and only to military production? A city would have to produce about 3000 hammers worth of units to break even (assuming it already has about +50%), which translates to 38(!) champions. Also, the wonder that gives a free obsidian gate, for it's obscene power in mobility, only costs twice as much as an obsidian gate itself. Cheaper to build than merely 3 obsidian gates and allows gating to newly conquered cities.

Victory conditions. Victory seems a bit vague... Tower of Mastery seemed to be the best bet I had, unless I really wanted to rampage across the map and conquer 4 more players, but I never noticed any of the individual towers available for building. This was a bit confusing.

Technology. It would be nice if researching one technology made other categories of technologies more expensive. This would encourage specialization and make playing the game a very different experience each time.

Guilds. I really have no idea how they are expanded, but I do like the aspect of spreading corporations for personal gain in Civ4: it would be nice to add that into FFH. Like, perhaps for the guild of hammers, it "missionaries" out to different cities, giving them a slightly better forge (even if it has none, replacing the free forge effect it has currently), but costs a bit of money to maintain (and generates money to the Guild's headquarters). The mercenary guild might dole out a point of XP every so often (again, at cost) or spawn a free unit every 75 turns or so. Something that would want players to have it spread to their cities.

Resources. Ties in a bit with above, corporations added in a benefit for having more than one of a resource. Perhaps guilds could consume resources to determine their benefit? For Guild of Hammers, this is easy, but I'm not sure what resources other guilds would use.

Religion. On a similar note to guilds, I never really noticed religion in the particular game I played. I mean, when it spread there weren't any extra buildings to build. Is state religion required? In one of my previous games, I noticed I could use acolytes to spread religion, but this isn't well documented in the interface.

Tooltips. This is an area I can offer my expertise, as it's merely an interface improvement (I'd be willing to help with the programming in other areas, too), but FFH could due with a few tooltip improvements, like mentioning what the training yard makes available, that breweries can only be built on rivers, etc. Likewise, a "description" tag can be added to buildings and wonders to explain some extra effects about what they do, so a mouseover on the building in the civilopedia would save from having to click it.

Culture. I know culture is pretty weak in default Civ4, but there's not a whole lot to build in a newly conquered city to regain some borders, or even to compete peacefully with other civs. Obelisks, carnivals, and theaters seem to be it. Of course, and then there's my whole cultural model that started my mod... :)
 
Yes, I agree about technology. Maybe it would be possible to have a modifier on research time based more on how many techs you've so far researched, rather than simply what tech it is that you're researching?

Re:religion, were you playing as Grigori? Religion is freaking huge in FFH... unless you're Grigori.
 
Now that I've actually finished a game (a few unsuccessful multiplayer trials), I'd like to make a few suggestions about the game.

Buildings in late game. This becomes really tedious later on when there are so many buildings to build. I would suggest some national wonders that grant the earlier buildings for new/conquered cities. Like obelisks, carnivals, later on, inns, etc. On the other hand, the cost for some buildings is a bit weird. Machinist shop costs 200 hammers, but only gives +10% and only to military production? A city would have to produce about 3000 hammers worth of units to break even (assuming it already has about +50%), which translates to 38(!) champions. Also, the wonder that gives a free obsidian gate, for it's obscene power in mobility, only costs twice as much as an obsidian gate itself. Cheaper to build than merely 3 obsidian gates and allows gating to newly conquered cities.

The Machanist shop lets you upgrade to Mithril weapons, if you have.

Victory conditions. Victory seems a bit vague... Tower of Mastery seemed to be the best bet I had, unless I really wanted to rampage across the map and conquer 4 more players, but I never noticed any of the individual towers available for building. This was a bit confusing.

All those 'or's in the requirements for the towers are actually 'ands'. You need ALL of the resources associated with the building to build it.

So, to build the ToM, you'll need one of each resource.

Guilds. I really have no idea how they are expanded, but I do like the aspect of spreading corporations for personal gain in Civ4: it would be nice to add that into FFH. Like, perhaps for the guild of hammers, it "missionaries" out to different cities, giving them a slightly better forge (even if it has none, replacing the free forge effect it has currently), but costs a bit of money to maintain (and generates money to the Guild's headquarters). The mercenary guild might dole out a point of XP every so often (again, at cost) or spawn a free unit every 75 turns or so. Something that would want players to have it spread to their cities.

Guilds are really just 1-off frills, and not like the corporations of BtS. If you have one, great, therwise don't expect to be able to spread them.

Resources. Ties in a bit with above, corporations added in a benefit for having more than one of a resource. Perhaps guilds could consume resources to determine their benefit? For Guild of Hammers, this is easy, but I'm not sure what resources other guilds would use.

Religion. On a similar note to guilds, I never really noticed religion in the particular game I played. I mean, when it spread there weren't any extra buildings to build. Is state religion required? In one of my previous games, I noticed I could use acolytes to spread religion, but this isn't well documented in the interface.

Religion is *huge* in this game. If you have a state religion, it will change the units you can build, as well as give you all sorts of special things, such as civics, spells, hero's, etc. For instance, the Fellowship of Leaves will slowly convert your forests into ancient forests (+1 food) and give you access to the massively powerful guardian of nature. It will eventually let you build Yvain and Kithra, two strong hero's.

Tooltips. This is an area I can offer my expertise, as it's merely an interface improvement (I'd be willing to help with the programming in other areas, too), but FFH could due with a few tooltip improvements, like mentioning what the training yard makes available, that breweries can only be built on rivers, etc. Likewise, a "description" tag can be added to buildings and wonders to explain some extra effects about what they do, so a mouseover on the building in the civilopedia would save from having to click it.

Culture. I know culture is pretty weak in default Civ4, but there's not a whole lot to build in a newly conquered city to regain some borders, or even to compete peacefully with other civs. Obelisks, carnivals, and theaters seem to be it. Of course, and then there's my whole cultural model that started my mod... :)

Culture is intentionally smitten. The Belseraph faction is meant to be far and away the cultural leaders in the game, and by minimizing the ability of a non belseraph civ to get culture, it's made even more noticeable.

Hope that 2 minute sputtering helps you out a bit. It's a lot to take in at first (The mod that is) and the documentation is pretty 'meh'. Look up Xienwolfs manual if you can, it'll help a lot.
 
Yeah, I was playing Grigori. So I guess that's why religion didn't concern me much. I had a ton of uber-adventurers which I used to conquer the country side. Previously, when I played Kuriotates, I got cult of the dragon and eventually the dragon, but seeing how I had to use a navy to get that dragon to another continent where the war was going... I didn't loose it, but it did feel very, very vulnerable.

As for fellowship of leaves, I was playing on a hub map and was using an archmage with nature 3 to slowly convert all of the ice in the center into plains. That was nice. :)

Next game I'll have to play with harder AI, it was too easy to gain a lead on them.
 
The Machanist shop lets you upgrade to Mithril weapons, if you have.

actually, it lets you build phalanx; your units are auto upgraded to mithril when you connect it

and read the manual; as someone who almost always reads the manual of anything, this is actually a very useful one compared to what you'd find in the average manual. Or more like there are so many hidden things it's almost impossible to figure out all of them. It's abit outdated sometimes(I think, but not 100% sure) however it definitelly helps a ton.
 
Oh, one more suggestion is to make the metamagic spell line available in a limited fashion to mages or archmages. The ability to switch the type of nodes is very valuable, but itself requires planning and excess resources.
 
...so you didn't notice that you were playing a civ whose primary theme is their angosticism?

Huh.
 
Interesting read although starting this tome with "Now that I've actually finished a game" makes me think that maybe you need to play a bit more to really apprecaite the subtle differences that combinations of race/faction/allignment/religion can have on the overall feel of the game. The manual is a must read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=257728 as is playing a non agnostic faction. On a side note, i just played my first winning game as Sheaim after so many defeats - simply fantastic running the AC up for a change...
 
xienwolf's manual describes them pretty well.

As far as the metamagic suggestion you have, could you elaborate because the spell that resets the node (I forget the name, it's not the Amurite world spell though) is a tier 2 spell and you need a mage for that.
 
Interesting read although starting this tome with "Now that I've actually finished a game" makes me think that maybe you need to play a bit more to really apprecaite the subtle differences that combinations of race/faction/allignment/religion can have on the overall feel of the game. The manual is a must read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=257728 as is playing a non agnostic faction. On a side note, i just played my first winning game as Sheaim after so many defeats - simply fantastic running the AC up for a change...

I've still played a few games, but they came to an abrupt halt thanks to OOS errors, and a crash when we had turned events off.

I'm not too sure about race/faction/alignment/religion, but at least technology wise, I was able to snag everything and powerhouse my way through it all. Essentially, do all of the 5-7 turn techs, and when another tech came down to 1-2 turns, I'd grab it too. From that aspect, it all felt rather homogenous, as I had military, powerhouse economy, rangers/nature units, an archmage (I did the magic ones a tad late and didn't spam adepts) and though I didn't delve into it, even the evil wonders were ripe for the taking. Of course, I'll keep playing as other civs to see how it goes.

xienwolf's manual describes them pretty well.

As far as the metamagic suggestion you have, could you elaborate because the spell that resets the node (I forget the name, it's not the Amurite world spell though) is a tier 2 spell and you need a mage for that.

Is what I had meant, is to make the node reset spell available without metamagic mana. After all, it takes at least 2 nodes to take advantage of this ability, if your capital doesn't provide metamagic. I had made the mistake of building two nature nodes trying to get to vitalize, but it turns out I still needed an archmage to cast it, and only 1 nature node is needed.

As a sidenote, now that I have everyone's attention, how does one cure disease and enervate? I was able to cure the former by sending them to a city with a world wonder, but what if I can't count on that?
 
Well the easy answer to that is to be the Amurites, although that is a one shot thing (unless you build birthright regained), it resets ALL nodes. Equivalent to trying to do surgery with an axe vs a scalpel because you can selectively reset nodes with that other spell

The analogy might not be that great but you get the idea.

As far as the bigger picture though, the way the spheres and stuff are set up right now is due to balance reasons. I can see your reasoning for wanting to do that though. Also, you really only need one metamagic node, and even then, you still need to get the first metamagic promotion and then get your adept to a mage.

Edit: um wilgar, that manual you linked to is outdated. I'll link to xienwolfs which is the latest. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265888

Anyway, yea the pool of tears is supposed to cure that. I'm not sure if there are other ways though for enervate.
 
yea, if you don't have one on your map, you're stuck with it, and it sucks even more if it's a hero and you own it.

If you're Balseraph, you can always send the unit to the arenas.
 
Mylon: For the love of all 21 Gods... PLEASE start another thread and document fully all your gripes about the Tooltips on Mouseovers. Every single last little one, no matter how insignificant it might seem.

I am seeking to improve those while I am making changes in the DLL, but the problem is that I know what everything does, and I don't actually play the game much, so I don't see what isn't documented. Either my mind fills it in, or I just don't get to that point in a game.

So please.... Start up a new thread that is centered specifically on that topic so that other people can chime in with their own requests, and I can make the game start to document itself.


Till then, as people mentioned: You can find almost everything in my manual. I hope to have the Promotions section finished sometime fairly soon, but I am in finals now, and I am sidetracking myself a lot with other projects anyway (and I want to re-format the thing again...) {PS - I take objection at the mention that my manual is EVER out of date. I will assume that person meant GreyWolf's Manual. I typically have mine updated day of the patch, if not before then based off the release notes}



Most of your questions about the game have been answered already. But your mention about the Metamagic Nodes is incorrect. You do not need 2 of them to be capable of casting Dispel. Just 1 Node, then an Adept can learn Metamagic 1. After that you do not even need the node anymore. The Adept can learn Metamagic 2 when he becomes a Mage and will be able to reset any node you desire.

If you fail to create a Metamagic Node, then your only option is to conquer some territory with a Mana Node and then you can build it as Metamagic (or Trade for it of course).
 
yea I meant Grey Fox's manual as bieng outdated.

Honestly though, it's easier to simply plan ahead and leave at least one mana node (unless you only have a few nodes and can't afford to leave one empty) to convert into metamagic.
 
Most of your questions about the game have been answered already. But your mention about the Metamagic Nodes is incorrect. You do not need 2 of them to be capable of casting Dispel. Just 1 Node, then an Adept can learn Metamagic 1. After that you do not even need the node anymore. The Adept can learn Metamagic 2 when he becomes a Mage and will be able to reset any node you desire.

If you fail to create a Metamagic Node, then your only option is to conquer some territory with a Mana Node and then you can build it as Metamagic (or Trade for it of course).

Is what I meant is... You need your metamagic node, and then you need the node that you wish to transform. I did not consider the idea of making a metamagic node, learning the spell, and then wiping the metamagic node away.
 
Never mind.
 
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