NAERALITH REBORN: New Civ 5 Design and Implementation Thread

[Tssha]

Tomorrow I will be posting the first bits of arcane magic design, including the base colours that myself and TheChanger have been working on, as well as Elementalism

Also, I will attach some screenshots of the magical symbols that TheChanger has (wonderfully) put together!

Looking forward to that and other updates for sure. Also looking forward to the DLL release so you can code in these changes.

Man, you two have really hashed out a solid design here. Maybe I need that kinda help with my own mod. I've got the factions, some buildings, most of the units and some techs, but the tech tree ain't even close to being finished (and everything has to hang from that). From watching you two work, I'm really seeing the benefit of discussing design on these forums.

I hope to play your mod someday because I know I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm also learning a lot from listening to you two discuss your design and updating it with new ideas and solid gameplay elements (buildings, faction bonuses, etc.).

Ah well, maybe I should start with fixing the nations in my mod. For some reason, an update wound up breaking a lot of my new Civs. I've gotta fix that.

 

[TheChanger]

Im glad you like the design process i love designing mods, im much better with design and art than actual coding, thats why Al and i work well together i think. also if you like the discussion on this forum youd love to see our arguments on skype XD gets pretty heated sometimes but thats how we roll i guess

im interested to see what kinda mod you're working on do you have a thread yet? id love to see it

im really excited for the tech tree to finish being coded Al's doin a marvelous job (albeit he gets distracted a lot by design but it all needs to be done in the end right? )

 

[Alzara]

nice work hows the coding going?

Good! Up to era 3 at the moment.

I do have a strange issue with Era 1 at the moment (as shown in the screenshot).

I don't suppose anybody has see anything like this. The links to Faith look strange, but gameplay wise Civ understands the technology links. It just seems to have not drawn the links to Faith properly...

Al

 

[Alzara]

Looking forward to that and other updates for sure. Also looking forward to the DLL release so you can code in these changes.

Man, you two have really hashed out a solid design here. Maybe I need that kinda help with my own mod. I've got the factions, some buildings, most of the units and some techs, but the tech tree ain't even close to being finished (and everything has to hang from that). From watching you two work, I'm really seeing the benefit of discussing design on these forums.

I hope to play your mod someday because I know I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm also learning a lot from listening to you two discuss your design and updating it with new ideas and solid gameplay elements (buildings, faction bonuses, etc.).

Ah well, maybe I should start with fixing the nations in my mod. For some reason, an update wound up breaking a lot of my new Civs. I've gotta fix that.

Glad you are so interested in Naeralith Reborn

Tis good to know about the public interest out there. I'll be posting some magic design tonight for all to see! Hope you like it

As TheChanger said, we talk a lot about design... often degenerating into arguements LOL. Tis all good though! I feel we are getting further with each day hehe. Hopefully soon more modding tools will become available to help us along (access to dlls would be nice )

So what is this mod you are designing? What is the general theme?

I can understand about breaking things btw lol. Happens all the time
I work in software development so trust me when I say crashes are inevitable

Im having a problem myself with tech tree rendering... one of my links is behaving oddly... not sure why

Thanks for the interest
Message me if you need any advice or feel like helping out

Al

 

[royal62184]

I just found your development thread and just love the ideas presented in this thread. I have some questions about scarthia/slavery pages that I read today. I have not read all of your pages yet (lot of work) but I will soon. I apologize if the answer to some of these questions are already in the other posts but I haven't read them all.

1. The upgrade path appears to be initiate -> priest -> high priest -> pontifex. Do the promotions associated with each unit proceed to the next unit like a traditional upgrade? Logically, will of the overlord would have to transfer but i'm not sure on the others. A level 1 pontifex at a minimum would have seven promotions. Am I interpretting it correctly:

1. Will of the Overlord
2. Daemonic Servant
3. Sadism
4. Infernal Seduction
5. Subdue Daemon
6. Daemonic Favor
7. Master of Pain

2. Is the upgrade process (initiate -> priest) going to be experience based or just done with money after a certain technology is acquired (the traditional route in CiV)?

3. The daemonic torturer/sensual healer can be upgraded to a melee, archer, or cavalry unit. What is the appeal in giving up a magic user for a non-magic user? Sure you have some of the promotions that will transfer but I assume you will no longer be a magic user.

4. The chosen of XXX (Alzara, Suvi, Humbranarus, etc) can only be achieved by the pontifex because it requires daemonic favour. Is this to encourage specialization? Is that the concept behind these?

5. Are Infernal seduction (+25% chance of converted a defeated unit) and slaver promotion (+25% of generating a slave from combat) different wordings of the same effect and actually stack?

6. I noticed a recourring them with +X unholy/fire/etc combat and +X% resistance. How does this concept work exactly. If a high priest with +4 unholy combat attacks an enemy with -75% unholy resistance, is the final combat strenth 12 (base) + 4 (unholy) * .25 = 13?

7. Daemonic favor. What is fear exactly? I thought it cause a unit to move to a unoccupied tile but it appears that is the scattered ability.

8. Chosen of Alzara. What is Burnt promotion?

9. Can you cast a spell and attack on the same turn? Are these spell casters even meant to enter combat directly?

Thanks for killing a few hours at work .

 

[Alzara]

I just found your development thread and just love the ideas presented in this thread. I have some questions about scarthia/slavery pages that I read today. I have not read all of your pages yet (lot of work) but I will soon. I apologize if the answer to some of these questions are already in the other posts but I haven't read them all.

1. The upgrade path appears to be initiate -> priest -> high priest -> pontifex. Do the promotions associated with each unit proceed to the next unit like a traditional upgrade? Logically, will of the overlord would have to transfer but i'm not sure on the others. A level 1 pontifex at a minimum would have seven promotions. Am I interpretting it correctly:

1. Will of the Overlord
2. Daemonic Servant
3. Sadism
4. Infernal Seduction
5. Subdue Daemon
6. Daemonic Favor
7. Master of Pain

2. Is the upgrade process (initiate -> priest) going to be experience based or just done with money after a certain technology is acquired (the traditional route in CiV)?

3. The daemonic torturer/sensual healer can be upgraded to a melee, archer, or cavalry unit. What is the appeal in giving up a magic user for a non-magic user? Sure you have some of the promotions that will transfer but I assume you will no longer be a magic user.

4. The chosen of XXX (Alzara, Suvi, Humbranarus, etc) can only be achieved by the pontifex because it requires daemonic favour. Is this to encourage specialization? Is that the concept behind these?

5. Are Infernal seduction (+25% chance of converted a defeated unit) and slaver promotion (+25% of generating a slave from combat) different wordings of the same effect and actually stack?

6. I noticed a recourring them with +X unholy/fire/etc combat and +X% resistance. How does this concept work exactly. If a high priest with +4 unholy combat attacks an enemy with -75% unholy resistance, is the final combat strenth 12 (base) + 4 (unholy) * .25 = 13?

7. Daemonic favor. What is fear exactly? I thought it cause a unit to move to a unoccupied tile but it appears that is the scattered ability.

8. Chosen of Alzara. What is Burnt promotion?

9. Can you cast a spell and attack on the same turn? Are these spell casters even meant to enter combat directly?

Thanks for killing a few hours at work .

Some very good questions!

I will reply to them thorougly tomorrow

I'm pretty tired here lol.

Just fixed a fundamental problem with tech tree rendering in civ 5 (see this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420316) and am trying to get the basic colour magic design typed up before I collapse on my bed

Al

 

[Alzara]

UPDATES

Added the magic design for basic colours as well as a brilliant image atlas done by TheChanger

Elementalism is still pending as I took time out to fix a core Civ5 tech tree rendering issue as shown in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420316

As you can see from this thread, the earlier issue I had discovered with tech tree branches (which was apparently a known bug) has been fixed

I attached a screenshot (from my tech tree) to show this. I included the code so that people can use the fix in their own mods!

Hope you all enjoy the magic design!

Al

 

[TheChanger]

I just found your development thread and just love the ideas presented in this thread. I have some questions about scarthia/slavery pages that I read today. I have not read all of your pages yet (lot of work) but I will soon. I apologize if the answer to some of these questions are already in the other posts but I haven't read them all.

1. The upgrade path appears to be initiate -> priest -> high priest -> pontifex. Do the promotions associated with each unit proceed to the next unit like a traditional upgrade? Logically, will of the overlord would have to transfer but i'm not sure on the others. A level 1 pontifex at a minimum would have seven promotions. Am I interpretting it correctly:

1. Will of the Overlord
2. Daemonic Servant
3. Sadism
4. Infernal Seduction
5. Subdue Daemon
6. Daemonic Favor
7. Master of Pain

2. Is the upgrade process (initiate -> priest) going to be experience based or just done with money after a certain technology is acquired (the traditional route in CiV)?

3. The daemonic torturer/sensual healer can be upgraded to a melee, archer, or cavalry unit. What is the appeal in giving up a magic user for a non-magic user? Sure you have some of the promotions that will transfer but I assume you will no longer be a magic user.

4. The chosen of XXX (Alzara, Suvi, Humbranarus, etc) can only be achieved by the pontifex because it requires daemonic favour. Is this to encourage specialization? Is that the concept behind these?

5. Are Infernal seduction (+25% chance of converted a defeated unit) and slaver promotion (+25% of generating a slave from combat) different wordings of the same effect and actually stack?

6. I noticed a recourring them with +X unholy/fire/etc combat and +X% resistance. How does this concept work exactly. If a high priest with +4 unholy combat attacks an enemy with -75% unholy resistance, is the final combat strenth 12 (base) + 4 (unholy) * .25 = 13?

7. Daemonic favor. What is fear exactly? I thought it cause a unit to move to a unoccupied tile but it appears that is the scattered ability.

8. Chosen of Alzara. What is Burnt promotion?

9. Can you cast a spell and attack on the same turn? Are these spell casters even meant to enter combat directly?

Thanks for killing a few hours at work .

Wow thanks for the great reply a lot of what you asked hasnt actually been documented and its good you asked cause Al and I still need to expand on some of those ideas. ill go through them 1 by 1 now and im sure Al will correct me where i mess up

1. Promotions will transfer to the next upgrade just like in normal Civ5. and upon upgrade they should recieve any free promotions associated with that unit type.

2. the upgrade of spellcasters like sorcerers and divine units will almost certainly be experience based. for instance you cannot build priests or pontifexes straight out the gate, only initiates. and you cannot upgrade a new initiate to a pontifex untill it reaches certain level thresholds. however, you will still require the use of gold to actually upgrade them once you reach the level threshold.

3. The initial design was to allow divine units to upgrade to combat units like melee archer etc in order to diversify your army. units upgraded as such would still have the will of the overlord promotion and thus could still cast magic, however they would have a much lower base spellpower (we are still working on designing this concept. basically i see it as a base combat stat that determines the strength and effectiveness of your spells) so they have the potential to cast already learnt spells at a much weaker power, but they cannot learn any new ones. This is one of those points Al and Myself will need to discuss in further detail so what i just said is purely my own take on it

4. The Chose of XXX promotions are definately to encourage specialization, and due to their very powerful nature pontifexes are the only ones that can get them, (on top of this pontifexes are a national unit so you will only have so many and will be unable to get all chosen pormotions in your army at once.)

5. I dont know much about the slavery system, thats Al's baby. but from what i can gather promotions with effects like that will be stackable. Scarthia is very heavilly reliant on slavery which is why they have an additional benefit to slave creation chance. other civs like rylonia will not have any special promos to help with this.

6. Damage types are really still a concept we havent fully discussed yet. basically i envisiage a few different damage types (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Light, Necrotic, Holy, Unholy, Poison, and possibly Raw Colour) Your maths looks good and is most likely how it would work. Damage resistances would be promotions any unit can gain after a while (probably with level requirements)

7. Another concept we havent discussed fully. a scattering mechanic could work, or something that has a chance to cause combat to end before it is initiated, wasting enemy attacks and moves.

8. Ive actually forgotten what Burnt did... it was something like -10% or -15% defence strength, or it reduced fire resistance.

9. Casting a spell should use up all remaining actions including moves and attacks. this is because spellcasting is very complex. Sorcerers are going to be classified as civiliant units and as such will not be able to enter combat directly (if they do they will most likely die) but priests and dive units are more righteous and made from sterner stuff and so would be used as combat units too.

-------------------

i hope that helps (and i hope im not too far off the mark Al )

 

[Tssha]

im interested to see what kinda mod you're working on do you have a thread yet? id love to see it

Heh, yeah, it's not quite ready to be shown off yet, mostly because I gotta go through my design docs and straighten them out. It's a post-nuclear war kinda deal, with all-original factions and backstories. I come at this from a writing background, which informs my design principles. I came up with it well before Civ V, originally modding it for Civ IV. I've since converted a lot of it over to Civ V, which fits my design principles better (1upt, not-immediately-fatal battles, city walls providing city strength throughout the game, etc.).

Sorry, no thread yet. But I'll be sure to let you know when I have one.

Also, Re: the Sorcerers being civilians, that means they'd be able to stack with military units. That might make sense actually. It allows them to be protected, but if the military unit escorting them dies, they die too. They can't be outflanked though, but that's still something that makes sense as Sorcerers can't fight on the front lines anyway and are just one man, despite having the power of an entire regiment. Archers are a whole stack of men that can't be hidden in the middle of a unit of swordsmen, so outflanking them makes a lot of sense (and was in fact a crucial element of warfare throughout history).

Just ma thoughts.

 

[Alzara]

Heh, yeah, it's not quite ready to be shown off yet, mostly because I gotta go through my design docs and straighten them out. It's a post-nuclear war kinda deal, with all-original factions and backstories.

Oh I love post-apocolyptic settings
Id be interested to see more

I come at this from a writing background, which informs my design principles. I came up with it well before Civ V, originally modding it for Civ IV. I've since converted a lot of it over to Civ V, which fits my design principles better (1upt, not-immediately-fatal battles, city walls providing city strength throughout the game, etc.).

I think its awesome that you have a writing background as I have had a similar experience with this mod.

Naeralith is a world of my creation that I have been working on for years before playing civ 5 or even civ 4. I have a website dedicated to my writing (google "Naeralith" - careful, its not for kids ).

Also, similar to yourself I originally started modding for Civ 4, but have converted to Civ 5 since it came out

Also, Re: the Sorcerers being civilians, that means they'd be able to stack with military units. That might make sense actually. It allows them to be protected, but if the military unit escorting them dies, they die too. They can't be outflanked though, but that's still something that makes sense as Sorcerers can't fight on the front lines anyway and are just one man, despite having the power of an entire regiment. Archers are a whole stack of men that can't be hidden in the middle of a unit of swordsmen, so outflanking them makes a lot of sense (and was in fact a crucial element of warfare throughout history).

I will reply to TheChangers response to your questions soon (with more detailed thoughts), but I had imagined that sorcerers could stack with normal units (ie take up a civilian slot) BUT still have a strength value. This was my original intention but maybe TheChanger has different ideas? lol

Al

 

[Alzara]

QUICK NOTE

Im off on a small break until Monday. I will explain some things about the way magic works when I get back

In the meantime, TheChanger will hold the fort

Hope you all enjoy the weekend!

Take care all

Al

 

[TheChanger]

Tunive Civilisation

Spoiler Tunive :

The Tuniveshe are an honourable people for whom family ties, loyalty and respect are of great importance.
They are masters of Ni'vae riding (Naeralith's horse equivalent), possessing mounted warfare techniques that have been honed from generation to generation.
To the people of Tunive, nothing is more glorious that riding across the plains of their homeland.

Leader: TBA
Alignment: Neutral

Traits

Ni'vae Lords: Ni'vae and iron resources provide double quantity. +1 global happiness per source of Ni'vae.
Steppe Riders: Mounted units get +1 move on open flatland terrain. Mounted Units ignore terrain penalties on open flatland terrain.
Shua Ki: Priest specialist slots replaced by sorcerer specialist slots; Sorcerer Specialists produce +1 Defence and +1 culture

im reposting my tunive ideas after discussing a little with Paul Alzara. were still thinking up a few more but this is what we have so far

Tea House: Replaces Herbalist; Yield Building; Cost 80; Maintenance 1; +1 food from each worked Alendus; +2 Culture; Heals units adjacent to the city +1 HP per turn.

Ni'vae Breeders: Replaces Granary; Yield Building; Cost 150; Maintenance 1; Requires Maelo, Slui, Sporral, Yumba or Ni'vae; +2 food; +1 food for each worked Maelo, Slui, Sporral, Yumba; Provides 1 source of Ni'vae.

Zen Garden: Replaces Garden; Yield Building; Cost 120; Maintenance 2; Requires River/Lake; +1 Bard; +1 Happiness; +33% GPP; +1 science and Culture from worked Fraeyalillies

Stables: Replaces Hippodrome; Military Building; Cost 60; Maintenance 1; Requires Barracks; Requires Ni'Vae/Striders; +20XP to all Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry units

Tunive Camp: Replaces Archery Range; Military Building; Cost 100; Maintenance 1; Requires Nivae Breeders; +10XP to all Archer and light cavalry units; Light cavalry units built in the city start with 'Flanking 1' promotion.

Steppe Hunters: Replaces Hunting Lodge; Military Building; Cost 100; Maintenance 1; Requires Nivae Breeders; +1 food for each worked Avuulin and Ni'vae. +1 Gold for each worked Kratan. +10XP to all Recon and light cavalry units.

Pagoda Temple: Replaces Temple; Cultural Building; Cost 120; Maintenance 2; Requires Monument; +1 Priest; +3 Culture. +10 EXP to Heirophant Units.

Show Grounds: Replaces Circus; Happiness Building; Cost 130; Maintenance 2; Requires Carnival; Requires Ni'Vae/Striders; +3 Happiness; +1 culture from worked Ni'vae resources.

Cloud Monestary: Replaces Monestary; Cultural Building; Cost 120; Maintenance 2; Requires Pagoda Temple; +1 Priest; +2 Culture; +2 culture from each nearby Incense and Maussberries. +1 Science from sorcerer specialists.

Circle Bridges: Replaces Levee; Yield Building; Cost 120; Maintenance 3; Requires city on a river; +1 Culture from river tiles

Moflosian Games: Replaces Race Track; Happiness; Cost 150; Maintenance 3; Requires Show Jumping Course; Requires Ni'Vae or Brazain or Mulgorf; +4 Happiness; +2 Culture from Ni'Vae Brazain and Mulgorf resources nearby; +10 EXP to all Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry units

Sky Temple: Replaces Cathedral; Cultural Building; Cost 150; Maintenance 3; Requires Cloud Monestary; +2 Priest; +5 Culture; +3 Culture for each worked Marble and Obsidian. Heirophant units built in the city start with the 'Enlightened' promotion giving them -10% spell miscast chance and Damaging spells do an additional +10% damage.

Conductors: Replaces Windmill; Yield Building; Cost 100; Maintenance 2; Requires City on a Hill; +1 Engineer, +1 Sorcerer; +10% Production, +10% Pigments

Meditation Hall: Replaces Astral Chamber; Research Building; Cost 600; Maintenance 2; Requires University; Consumse 1 starmetal; +2 Sage, +2 Sorcerer; +100% Science.

 

[Alzara]

im reposting my tunive ideas after discussing a little with Paul...

Hey wait a minute... I protest

I am Alzara... Overlord of the Pit and all its nastiness... Paul is just my... umm... mortal name... yes thats it!... mortal name

Al

 

[Alzara]

TINY UPDATE

Added a new class of unit called 'Hierophant'

Also updated Arcanum Schola, Parochial School and various derivative buildings to reference this new unit type. Further details on Hierophant Units will be revealed later

Other updates due for later this evening

Al

 

[Alzara]

Other updates due for later this evening

Tomorrow even

Didn't realise what time it was lol

Al

 

[TheChanger]

Hey wait a minute... I protest

I am Alzara... Overlord of the Pit and all its nastiness... Paul is just my... umm... mortal name... yes thats it!... mortal name

Al

LOL oops sorry im so used to refering to you by your mortal name...

 

[Alzara]

LOL oops sorry im so used to refering to you by your mortal name...

Btw sorry about the delays people. Work has been unusually busy these last few days

Al

 

[Alzara]

UPDATES

Added my Essyliane unique building design!

I will add in Tunive on Saturday!

Al

 

[royal62184]

In Naeralith all magic is derived from the colour inherent in living matter, and the more brightly coloured stuff is, the more magical. this is why many of the more colourful resources have higher pigment yields. In order to get this idea across weve decided the smallest value of colour in magic is refered to as a 'pigment'.

Basically Pigments are a new tile yield similar to production (or more accurately, culture) which is accumulated in the same manner as culture for use in purchasing Magical Lores (similar to Social Policies) from the Magic Palette Tree (similar to the social policy tree). Im not certain on the specifics of the Palette tree, but as far as i know there will be at least 7 Lore Brances, one for each colour of magic. there will probably also be a white Lore and Necromantic Lore.

The purpose of these lores and magic policies is to determine what spells your sorcerers and such can learn. it acts as a limiting factor as to how strong your sorceres can be and how many spells they know.

Another effect of pigments is that the pigments present in the terrain directly affects your spellcasters strength and magical power. more pigments obviously means more ambient magical energy and so stronger sorcerers. low pigments means weaker sorcerers, and NO pigments (such as in Margorian Lands) means no spell casting (except for liches and necromancers but thats another tale)

THats relaly just a brief overview from what i understand, im sure Al will add in more later but for now thats all i know hope that helps!

What is the relationship of pigments to Daemonology for the Scrythia civilization?

Should I think of Daemonology as basically a free palette of magic that only they get?

DO the scrythia still get to research the pallette tree and still get access to the basic 7 magic groups?

 

[Alzara]

What is the relationship of pigments to Daemonology for the Scrythia civilization?

Should I think of Daemonology as basically a free palette of magic that only they get?

DO the scrythia still get to research the pallette tree and still get access to the basic 7 magic groups?

Pigments are related to arcane magic only. They represent the essence of sorcerery (derived from colour) found in all things.

Daemonology is a "religion", hence magic derived from a divine source. It is only possessed by Scarthia, and relates to the magic possessed by their divine units ONLY

Scarthian sorcerers behave in the same way as sorcerers possessed by all nations. I.e they use the palette tree and use the 7 different magic groups (plus other derived arcane magic such as elementalism and necromancy as you will see later)

For each nation, the characteristics of your sorcerers are determined by the promotions you choose for them and by the paths you unlock from the palette tree.

Divine magic (such as Daemonology possessed by Scarthian priests), is unique to each civilisation and is completely separate from the palette tree and arcane spells

Hope this is informative!

Al