I find myself hardly building any boats ever cept fisher boats or sometimes to conquer the other continent with some galeons if i play continents. Anyone else actually taking use of boats? Why are they so useless(imo)? Can they be used effectivly? I never seem to have the hammers needed. Allways seem better to build something else.
Navy
- Thread starter oyzar
- Start date
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
I have a theory that Ragnar can use boats effectively on most maps by using them as fast troop transports. Its fairly easy for him to get 4 move galleys, which can move armies much faster than they can walk. The idea would be to rapidly raid along the coastline. The great lighthouse might be quite helpful too.
3 galleys can bring 4 catapults and a couple of good defenders in the first wave, and then get the recent healed city busters in the next wave ready to attack as soon as the city defenses are down. Beserkers can attack directly off the ships too.
Unfortunately my only attempt at this ended up with Ragnar on an isolated continent ): - I did get a late war against a similarly isolated opponent using this strategy, but I was way behind the main continent by this time.
Other than that I agree - they aren't much faster and they don't carry enough troops to be particular useful apart from the intercontinental invasion or archipelago maps.
3 galleys can bring 4 catapults and a couple of good defenders in the first wave, and then get the recent healed city busters in the next wave ready to attack as soon as the city defenses are down. Beserkers can attack directly off the ships too.
Unfortunately my only attempt at this ended up with Ragnar on an isolated continent ): - I did get a late war against a similarly isolated opponent using this strategy, but I was way behind the main continent by this time.
Other than that I agree - they aren't much faster and they don't carry enough troops to be particular useful apart from the intercontinental invasion or archipelago maps.
If I'm divided from my opponents by water I love focusing on a strong navy. You can blockade ports to prevent enemy troops from ever invading you... so home defenses can be much lighter. When doing this, I usually keep warships in pairs (frigates or destroyers) so that when you encounter an enemy ship it's almost certain that you'll win. And when you sink a full galleon or transport, the effort of supporting a navy is sooo worth it.
But if it's a pangea map or you're fighting only on your own continent there isn't much fun in a navy. I miss the days of Civ I and II, when one battleship could destroy every unit on the coastline.
Half-Off-Topic: I think that subs should have a very high chance to withdraw from combat against the units that cannot see them... and no chance to withdraw from the units that can (destroyers and subs). A sub should almost always be able to survive an attack against a lone battleship... even if the attack is a failure.
But if it's a pangea map or you're fighting only on your own continent there isn't much fun in a navy. I miss the days of Civ I and II, when one battleship could destroy every unit on the coastline.
Half-Off-Topic: I think that subs should have a very high chance to withdraw from combat against the units that cannot see them... and no chance to withdraw from the units that can (destroyers and subs). A sub should almost always be able to survive an attack against a lone battleship... even if the attack is a failure.
Gorman Truart
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 7, 2006
- Messages
- 70
I've found bombarding coastal cities to be quite useful. It lets you take these cities quickly with far fewer seige weapons. It's also useful for misdirection. In my current game, I'm bombarding a Japanese city that's far from where I want to attack. They've moved a lot of defenders there, weakening the city I plan to attack next.
Naval attack units are also good when you've been asked to declare war on an overseas rival. You can hurt them and get money by pillaging, and even help your ally capture coastal cities by bombarding. While this isn't as devastating as sending over land units, it's cheaper, causes less war
, and the damage it causes is definitely not negligible.
Naval attack units are also good when you've been asked to declare war on an overseas rival. You can hurt them and get money by pillaging, and even help your ally capture coastal cities by bombarding. While this isn't as devastating as sending over land units, it's cheaper, causes less war
, and the damage it causes is definitely not negligible.
Mad Professor
Deity
Boats can speed up a conquest even on a pangea map. Troops can move 4 (or 5 if you circumnavigated) tiles per turn in enemy territory in a galleon if cities are on the coast. I've used this to great effect on continent maps in particular, but even on pangea maps. An invasion can sweep along an enemy's coast very fast this way. It sure beats having a grenadier (say) walk the distance along the coast instead...
And as DaveMcW indicates, you might be struggling on an archapelago map without boats...
And as DaveMcW indicates, you might be struggling on an archapelago map without boats...
Harbourboy
Deity
Navies are great.
They are very useful for:
- defence of isolated continents going for cultural win. With a strong navy you are invulnerable and you can not bother with many land units in your cities.
- causing havoc with your enemies sea based resources
- bombarding coastal cities
- carrying loads of planes on carriers to pillage the heck out of an enemy's land
- submarines to carry spies deep into enemy territory unseen to cause merry hell on their space race.
The thing with navies is that they need to be strong. A weak navy is probably not worth the effort because one boat by itself will probably get beaten up badly.
They are very useful for:
- defence of isolated continents going for cultural win. With a strong navy you are invulnerable and you can not bother with many land units in your cities.
- causing havoc with your enemies sea based resources
- bombarding coastal cities
- carrying loads of planes on carriers to pillage the heck out of an enemy's land
- submarines to carry spies deep into enemy territory unseen to cause merry hell on their space race.
The thing with navies is that they need to be strong. A weak navy is probably not worth the effort because one boat by itself will probably get beaten up badly.
Battleships, at the very least, should be able to bombard and wound enemy units one to two tiles inland. (And trade salvos with cannons or artillery) That would make it worthwhile to build a strong navy. As it is now, except for intercontinental invasions and a couple ships to protect your fishing boats, there isn't a real reason to, which is a shame.
"they aren't much faster and they don't carry enough troops to be particular useful apart from the intercontinental invasion or archipelago maps"
I agree. Galleys are barely worth it, and it takes a while research up to Galleons. "Inland Sea" map type - should have islands/resources scattered in the sea to encourage naval buildup. Now, it is simple enough to walk your army on roads to your rival with no reason to expand into the water.
I agree. Galleys are barely worth it, and it takes a while research up to Galleons. "Inland Sea" map type - should have islands/resources scattered in the sea to encourage naval buildup. Now, it is simple enough to walk your army on roads to your rival with no reason to expand into the water.
JimT
Warlord
Good point what are they Kamikaze Subs!!! Can't say it annoys me as I just don't build them.
On Topic Navies are great on continents/archi../fractal when you are in the mid-end game. Sinking five transports worth of units is a very effective way of winning a war. What annoys me is when you have systemically destroyed your opponents navy and your units are sitting around waiting for you to
1) Win this war
2) Rebuild
3) Start the next one
They cost a lot but are far too expensive to disband
Chemtech
Chieftain
...too expensive to disband...
They should mod-in a national wonder called "Naval Mothball Yard" or something a little sexier sounding. Ships "in port" in that city pay no maintenance costs.
If you needed to make it a bit more difficult to use because of balance issues then ships "coming out of mothballs" have zero movement points the first turn they are activated.
They should mod-in a national wonder called "Naval Mothball Yard" or something a little sexier sounding. Ships "in port" in that city pay no maintenance costs.
If you needed to make it a bit more difficult to use because of balance issues then ships "coming out of mothballs" have zero movement points the first turn they are activated.
Lord Sandwich
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2007
- Messages
- 16
Navies are very useful, though you can usually get by with quite a small one until Astronomy. If you have naval dominance, you can pillage your enemies' fishing boats, drop off reinforcements deep in his territory, and cut off his trade routes.
slightlymarxist
Comrade
Thing is, when I'm building navy I'm making the choice of NOT building land based military units. I need a very strong reason for this. Pillaging fishing boats is not a good enough reason. Bombarding enemy defenses is not a good enough reason (might as well build an extra catapult). They're not even that effective as fishing boat protectors, since it's generally cheaper to just replace destroyed fishing boats with new ones after the war, rather than maintain an expensive navy that might not be successful against a navy-building-crazy AI anyway.
On Archipelago maps it's a different deal obviously. Otherwise, I normally only build navies for one reason: troop transport, and even then I cringe at the thought.
On Archipelago maps it's a different deal obviously. Otherwise, I normally only build navies for one reason: troop transport, and even then I cringe at the thought.
Mad Professor
Deity
One very good reason was posted above. I've ended any serious AI threat in war very easily a number of times with an effective navy. JimT posted:
"Sinking five transports worth of units is a very effective way of winning a war."
It's just so good to see those invading mechs and armor filling up with water on the bottom of the ocen. They don't shoot too well from down there. (Or substitute earlier units in that sentence for earlier eras).
I've noticed that if you put down a big stack like that (either by sinking it or beating it after it lands) on a continents map, you usually have quite a long period where you are left alone by the attacker. Usually that stack is one built by the AI ready to go off to war with. You sink it and you have to build another one. By the time the AI has done that you can have done a number of other things depending on your own power or deisres - either get peace, or launch an attack of your own.
Sure. I often play without much of a navy in the hope that I really don't need one, but having one is better.
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 2,023
There is a case when I use ships for movement: during the renaissance. Frigates and galleons are faster than cannons. Load up galleons with cannons for collateral damage and some grenadiers (if you also have rifles, you've probably won at that point already). Cavalry walk on land; they are the main assult troops, with the second duty of pillaging roads and cutting off reinforcements while you're bombarding cultural defenses. With frigates it may take a while, since you want the cannons to do the suiciding.
It's a lot better than just cannons and cavalry, because cannons out in the open are subject to harassment from the defenders.
It's a lot better than just cannons and cavalry, because cannons out in the open are subject to harassment from the defenders.
bardolph
King
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2007
- Messages
- 739
I recently played a game where Rameses II was going for a cultural victory on the other side of the continent. I didn't have enough Open Borders agreements to march an army all the way over there, and his candidate cities weren't at the edge of his empire anyway.
Solution? Drop an invasion force outside of Alexandria and raze it.
The coastal bombard ability of Frigates -> Battleships is very useful: much more so than "bringing another catapult," because (a) boats are fast, and can easily move on to the second city while your stack is busy assaulting the first, and (b) ocean units are 100% impervious to enemy land units. You can't simply park a lone catapult outside a city and start bombarding, but you can do this with an Ironclad!
An amphibious assault on a city also allows a lightning strike against a city with no opportunity for the defending city to attack first.
Solution? Drop an invasion force outside of Alexandria and raze it.
The coastal bombard ability of Frigates -> Battleships is very useful: much more so than "bringing another catapult," because (a) boats are fast, and can easily move on to the second city while your stack is busy assaulting the first, and (b) ocean units are 100% impervious to enemy land units. You can't simply park a lone catapult outside a city and start bombarding, but you can do this with an Ironclad!
An amphibious assault on a city also allows a lightning strike against a city with no opportunity for the defending city to attack first.
JimT
Warlord
I seccond the posts suggesting as good reasons
- sinking transports
- quick and safe bombardment. A battleship can get the defences down before a catapult arrives
Also even if you don't want to do it the AI will ferry troops and its better to have a navy then have half your reserves guarding your flanks.
And seriously replacing fishing boats is effective. Maybe on pangaea but on continents you would never have a sea resource while at war. With a battleship and a destroyer you could save yourself a few hundred hammers and sink some opposition into the bargain
I just played the Dessert War scenerio and had a question. I had a sub I was trying to get to the eastern Med from the western side. The Med was an all out sea battle, so I was trying to slip him by using the coastal defense bonus. I had a battleship run over and attack him. I was in enemy cultural zone and next to an enemy city, but no destroyers in sight. What made the sub visible?
bardolph
King
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2007
- Messages
- 739
A destroyer may have come into sight range and then moved out of range, all in the same turn. Otherwise, I'm not sure. Can spies and/or subs see subs?
It's also possible that the battleship was merely trying to move, and accidentally ran into the sub.
It's also possible that the battleship was merely trying to move, and accidentally ran into the sub.
I've had games where my navy was key.
Usually I was a small island off of the coast of a large continent. Close enough that I got contact early (and didn't fall insanely behind in the tech game), but far enough that invasion required a serious navy.
By having a huge navy and defending my borders, I was able to project force anywhere in the world, while people couldn't project force back at my homeland.
...
Now, practically, on a large map we really need much faster navies, and the inability to "stealth land" troops.
Ie, multiple boat speeds by 1 to 4 (depending on era: 2 on coasts with sailing, 2 in the sea with compass, 3 with in the sea combustion, and 4 in the sea with electronics). Prevent boats from unloading troops if they have moved this turn (just zero the movement of all units in a boat that moves).
Viola: boats become a rather good way to move troops fast.
Usually I was a small island off of the coast of a large continent. Close enough that I got contact early (and didn't fall insanely behind in the tech game), but far enough that invasion required a serious navy.
By having a huge navy and defending my borders, I was able to project force anywhere in the world, while people couldn't project force back at my homeland.
...
Now, practically, on a large map we really need much faster navies, and the inability to "stealth land" troops.
Ie, multiple boat speeds by 1 to 4 (depending on era: 2 on coasts with sailing, 2 in the sea with compass, 3 with in the sea combustion, and 4 in the sea with electronics). Prevent boats from unloading troops if they have moved this turn (just zero the movement of all units in a boat that moves).
Viola: boats become a rather good way to move troops fast.
