need advice on blocking

[Mec AntiKythera]

...which I placed 1S of copper...

Did you? It looks like it is 1SW of copper, making the fish city a bit slippery...

Make sure Shaka can't sail by you and go settle that land you are blocking. You only need to worry about the border cities so keep a good showing there and expand. As far as those FPs go, if you cottage them they can easily be pillaged, plus you have the Pyramids, all the more reason to go with an SE.

 

[backthief]

I think you should have tried the axe rush more fiercely. 3:1 ratio units are usually required. Spamming trough slavery is a good option when you have good food resources.

Well, since u called a blocakge, lets expand west.

 

[whats a navy]

I think you should have tried the axe rush more fiercely. 3:1 ratio units are usually required. Spamming trough slavery is a good option when you have good food resources.

Well, since u called a blocakge, lets expand west.

He has land for 12+ cities peacefully and Shaka is a bit far away for this to work. The land is so good he could never have to war and just turtle up for space although Shaka may attack.

Edit: I looked at the screenshot again of his land SW and I think 15 would be easy, assuming he sets up four cities between Shaka and his cap. (why that city SW copper? It kills this fish and a great looking NE/GT city).

 

[backthief]

If you want to expand west instead of east (warring Shaka), get Iron Working and 2 workers per city. Those jungles will halt your progress. Just make sure you keep your own stack of doom by Shaka´s border, he will attack you.

 

[michmbk]

With all that land to yourself, I would definitely forget about rushing if I were you. You can easily settle another 10 solid cities (if you include taking the two barb cities) down there, and with that much land, as long as you defend against Shaka, you should be able to dominate.

 

[ben-jammin]

So alot has happened in this situation. I went for only 2 cities, which I placed 1S of copper, and then 2N of stone. I then proceeded to produce axemen like crazy for the rush against shaka. Everything was fine except this:



He didn't have copper, but he had a ton of archers, and they were behind walls. He kepts spamming the archers, and at the same time expanding to his east like crazy. I built a force of around 6 axemen or so, with more on the way, and scouted ahead. The north city, not only did it have walls, he had extra archers there, in anticipation of a settler spawning. maybe 6 archers(!) 4 of them with city garrison 1.

I scouted the southern city, and it was better - only 3 defenders, only 1 of them with CG1. I moved my stack into position, and was right about to declare war when all of a sudden on the map, he suddenly had bronze. i believe the 2% or w/e to discover metals/gems etc on the mining hit for him... ARRGHH. At this point he had 5 cities, and spamming more archers and settlers, and about to create his first axemen.


I really wanted this, but I had to call the rush off. I used 2 axemen each to fortify the 2 border towns (I was considering 3 like many of u suggested) and proceeded to scout the rest of my continent with the rest of the axemen.

here is a SS of the continent--

Spoiler :

At the point where I decided to call off the attack, I switched to building pyramids, and researched writing. It unfortunately took a while. But, i did manage to get the mids and now I am currently growing all my towns to happy cap, running 2 scientists each. Thanks to the city sites I have loads of food. ive already begun building cottages around 3rd city especially. I researched alphabet b/c niether cyrus or shaka had it, and traded it for mathematics from cyrus. shaka doesn't want to trade . im considering converting to budhism to maybe get more out of him (does he trade at pleased? )

I have a fishing boat that has scouted all round the persians to a little island but has not found anyone else. its just me shaka and cyrus. Now that I have explored, this situation for the rest of my empire looks alright. I have lots of land to expand into. So now I have to manage my power meter vs shaka, build some walls in anticipation of attack (im pretty sure, like the rest of u, it'll happen sometime).

So now its time for choosing some sites for the rest of my empire: I want to grab the marble, and potentially get the GL. The south barbarian city is alright i guess: the fish i can use in another city at the very tip, and the clam I can combine with the horses.

Spoiler :

Last for Nick --

I hope I correctly attached the original save. If you do play through it, post some SS! for those that suggested 3 blocking cities to make use of the plains here's your chance

Thanks all for the advice so far!!!

When Shaka popped copper I don't understand why you didn't just pillage it? He has only defensive units at this point...you can pillage/squat tiles like crazy and more-or-less cripple his heavily defended cities while multiplying your army.

The way I'd have run it, his more lightly defended city goes first, which leaves you with a handful of axemen who now have city raider. Did you have a barracks built in your capital? Maybe I'll shadow this game and try my rush. You may have lots of room to expand, but there's really only longterm upside to crippling Shaka early. He will be a constant threat throughout the game otherwise, and not a good tech trading partner. With him neutered and eventually taken out completely you have uncontested expansion and can have absolutely minimal defense in your many interior cities for a long time. You're then set up for a really dominant middle ages/renaissance where you can do as you please. Your starting position is SO strong...I'm going to play into this a bit and post in a bit.

Mich is completely right...you dont need an early rush here, lots of space and your leader is both expansive and imperialistic. I just feel the early rush speeds up your eventual win so that's what im gonna try to do. The doubled great general emergence only makes an early war that much sweeter.

 

[backthief]

You will be in war with Shaka soon or later. The later, the more expensive it will be.

 

[ben-jammin]

Here is my game just before the axe rush starts. The capital is producing an axeman every 3 turns, chopping is not neccessary there, whipping an axe from zero every 15 turns. The capital has so many good food tiles that you actually need to NOT work some of them while recovering from whip unhappiness. For this you have mines on the grassland hills.

All axes from the capital of course start with city raider I. Timing is critical here. As you can see Shaka has not gotten his walls up yet, and in fact I was just quick enough that his one promoted archer in this city only has 5% fortify bonus right now. if I want to take him out completely in two phases, I will be able to do the second phase with elephants for extra ease. On the next turn my latest axeman actually gets city raider 2 promo from taking out a barbarian archer. He heals and joints the battle later. On the next turn I also complete a chariot, which I want to pillage whatever copper he might get and protect if he gets out an axeman or two (I am trying my best to play this as if I hadnt already known what youve posted here). Shaka also on the next turn brings two archers out of his cities to go on the offensive, which is nice of him.

The capital in this game is so strong that I've actually only produced ONE axe in the second city at this point and am still ready to take his first city. My workers will build war-roads next. This game is actually slightly less than optimal because my tech order at the beginning was not the smartest. My first worker spennt 3 or 4 turns doing nothing, and I started horseback riding before mysticism by accident so the monument in the second city was delayed.

My tech rate will plunge even further if i keep his cities, maybe I won't. Either way I get that sweet sweet loot money.

 

[ben-jammin]

Chariot is sacrificed to take out multiple attacking archers. Firstly because it's way more efficient while they're out of their cities, two because theres a small chance he takes back the city I just captured if I dont. The chariot takes out two archers and wounds a third, excellent trade and a second chariot is whipped in the capital and ready the next turn. So 3 turns into the war I took his first city, killed 3 archers in the open and damaged a third. In total I lost the chariot and two axemen. My city raider II axe is almost at Shakas border, and an axe I just built in the capital has 2 conveniently spawned barbarian warriors right by the capital to level up to CR II on before he heads out as well. second city is now producing more disposable un-promoted axes.

 

[ben-jammin]

5 or 6 turns after I declared war:

4 axemen with CRII
chariot on the way along the southern road for pillaging as I sacrificed the first one for a return I couldnt pass up.

The second target city now has only 2 archers, only one promoted. This is because he sent archers out to retake the town and I cut em down. The warrior in the captured city came in handy, here's why: he had an archer who had killed my chariot but was wounded in the forest to the SE of the captured city, plus another archer on the hills adjacent. I had two axemen and the warrior in the captured city. With one axeman I killed the wounded archer in the forest. With the warrior I moved into the same tile with the now-wounded axeman so that I wouldnt lose a CRII axe to his archer. Leaving the unpromoted axe (who had already moved) to defend the city. I kill the wounded archer with no risk to my units, really. wounded axeman had less health than the warrior, who then would have defended had the archer attacked, leaving only a very slim chance that his archer defeats the axeman in the city. His odds against the warrior in the forest and the axe in the city were both poor, so he ends up doing nothing.

Now in this screenshot we see that he still has an archer outside his city that cannot get back in by the next turn. He also will be but down in the open. Shaka also has a settler in the target city. This is the beauty of a well-time axe-rush. I could have waited a few more turns to start but decided to go ahead with just enough units in position to take hte first city, and this is why. While every turn you delay gives you an advantage, it IMO gives the AI a bigger advantage, moving more units to the threatened cities, whipping archers, possibly completing a wall JUST before you attack, etc.

Now in this screenshot I can attack his archer on the hill with the unpromoted axe in the city. 63% odds...not that great. But its only an unpromoted axe, and next turn he can move into a forest where the odds will be in his favour. I do it and lose without even wounding him. Such is life...you play the odds. Now im left with a warrior and a very wounded axe in the captured city. This means his archer may attack and kill my warrior, but will be wounded. So I move the axe in the forest towards him to make sure I candefend the city on the next turn. I should have had the other axe to the south in that city, and also should have sent the chariot up there instead of towards the next target city. Stupid but he still cannot retake the captured city and overall results are acceptable. Another dumb thing I did was not immediately moving up the archer from my bronze city to the captured city...he's not needed there yet for happiness. I leave my other axe to the south just outside the border because units in enemy territory cost extra money and im not ready to take that city yet anyway.

Next turn I see he has an axe in the next target city, so it's time for my chariot to go a-pillagin'. Also a good time to whip another one. I decided to build a barracks in the copper city before pumping out units. I am just barely, barely in a position to do so without my early rush folding up and running on home, its a gamble but my workers have just finished building a road to the captured city and now they can run back and chop out that barracks and then work the corn and pigs as the cities border just popped. I forgot to micromanage production/food in the capital and it went into unhappiness.

 

[ben-jammin]

Shaka gets walls built so instead of dragging it out and suiciding a dozen axes to take his capital I give him a peace treaty in return for masonry. So the net result of that early rush was:

-a great general (settled in the copper city which now produces units with 2 promotions)
-captured one of his better cities
-a free technology
-money loss offset by the gold i got with the city
-lost turns of expansion partially offset by the captured city

My tech pace now sucks but the next tech is writing for libraries and scientists. Pyramids have yet to be built so maybe Ill squeeze that one in. THere will be a short period of expansion to the west until I get construction, at which point catapults and war elephants will accompany my dozen or so CR2 axes to finish shaka off.

Shaka also got a great general out of it, but was also forced to settle a worthless city in the middle of desert, and lost some productivity from everything of his i pillaged. All in all it could have been much more decisive if id managed to accelerate it by a few turns. This strategy is not as effective as I thought it would be, my axe rush needed to be a few turns faster.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Honestly, when I had a look at the overall map, I figured that early war was not worth it. I mean, look at the land to your south! All that beautiful jungle, food, grassland, I had no incentive to anything but wall off Shaka with a couple of hill cities (a technique learnt from TMIT) and then push south to settle that land. Besides, Shaka's land is crap, too much desert. Plus, even if I wipe out Shaka, I'll be isolated with Cyrus and that means no more tech trades.

One of the things I did was expand northeast and tightly pack my cities, so that my low happy cap was still capable of working all those floodplains. I did end up landing the mids and switched to rep, which raised the happy cap of my core cities, but that's okay, they did their job. I did make a mistake and push for Alphabet instead of Aesthetics, which means a ton of beaker turns was wasted.

 

[vanillasine]

Shaka gets walls built so instead of dragging it out and suiciding a dozen axes to take his capital I give him a peace treaty in return for masonry. So the net result of that early rush was:

-a great general (settled in the copper city which now produces units with 2 promotions)
-captured one of his better cities
-a free technology
-money loss offset by the gold i got with the city
-lost turns of expansion partially offset by the captured city

My tech pace now sucks but the next tech is writing for libraries and scientists. Pyramids have yet to be built so maybe Ill squeeze that one in. THere will be a short period of expansion to the west until I get construction, at which point catapults and war elephants will accompany my dozen or so CR2 axes to finish shaka off.

Shaka also got a great general out of it, but was also forced to settle a worthless city in the middle of desert, and lost some productivity from everything of his i pillaged. All in all it could have been much more decisive if id managed to accelerate it by a few turns. This strategy is not as effective as I thought it would be, my axe rush needed to be a few turns faster.

yeah, I need to work on my axe rushing i guess - maybe go for them before the 3rd city. I had a chance to take the lower city, but it just didn't seem that it would cripple him that much. my economy was already getting slightly dragged down by the axe spam and it would have hit bottom had all of them gone into enemy territory.

Im pretty sure that shaka will come after you again. in my game, he definately DOW on me, and went on the move against my copper city with about 10 units. luckily i had plenty of fortified defense behind walls so he had no chance really. im hoping he'll just get way behind tech and keep suiciding on my walls.

Honestly, when I had a look at the overall map, I figured that early war was not worth it. I mean, look at the land to your south! All that beautiful jungle, food, grassland, I had no incentive to anything but wall off Shaka with a couple of hill cities (a technique learnt from TMIT) and then push south to settle that land. Besides, Shaka's land is crap, too much desert. Plus, even if I wipe out Shaka, I'll be isolated with Cyrus and that means no more tech trades.

One of the things I did was expand northeast and tightly pack my cities, so that my low happy cap was still capable of working all those floodplains. I did end up landing the mids and switched to rep, which raised the happy cap of my core cities, but that's okay, they did their job. I did make a mistake and push for Alphabet instead of Aesthetics, which means a ton of beaker turns was wasted.

did u go all the way up the hill SW of pig? or just the desert hill around all that desert (but stil in range of clams?).

 

[Nick Carpathia]

The desert hill next to the clams. The one SW of the pigs felt too far away. It'll work a couple of floodplain cottages some lighthouse coasts, I'll whip them into walls and castles if necessary.

I'll probably show a couple of screenshots later today or tomorrow. I really pushed for using Imperialistic and Expansive, went for the Rapid Expansion route, I think I have 7 cities at turn 100 or so. I'm not going to get a chance to play for a bit.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Well, here are some screens from saves I made up until this current play session. My goal was to split the floodplains are into multiple cities, due to my low happycap. As I mentioned before, I originally wasn't going for the mids, but then I figured that I'd need some government civic. So hey, why not? I also used Oporto to get my first great person, and from then on it was my unit pump.

I landed the mids a few turns later. Went for literature, and somehow managed to chain-whip the Great Library into Evora. It was a gamble, I really should have built it in my capital, but hey, it paid off. That city's going to run a ton of specialists. I got Shaka to pleased via religion.

A little after that, Shaka went into WHEOOHRN. No worries, I had walls on both hilltop border cities, my Heroic epic was on the front lines, and I was pumping 1/turn axes. I delayed his wardec by 10 turns by begging for sheep, so I got complacent for a bit, razing a barbarian city (that I in really should have kept, I originally wanted to resettle it 2N, but that was a mistake when...)

WHAT!? I moved an axe out of my newly built city to fogbust, and Shaka's Impi and Sword got teleported into the back side of my empire! And it autorazed. ****, that's going to delay my development of my future Oxford by dozens of turns! I killed that Impi before he could run around forking cities, but that sword was still a problem. I whipped a barrackless axe and upgraded a 0xp warrior to an axe just to make sure it doesn't do any more mischief. I'm not sure how much warsuccess a size-1 city raze counts as, but it's going to delay any negotiations with Shaka for a long long time.

This was Shaka's SoD. I killed it with a few axes, got 2 great generals total, and am at nearly at the same power rating as he. He's still not talking, and his borders block me off from Cyrus, meaning I'm losing 2/city. This is actually kinda bad, my economy has somewhat stagnated from unit maintenance and unhappiness, my beaker rate is not increasing. Plus, I've only just started to re-expand to the southern jungles, I just hope that I can spare the hammers to develop that area. I'm not interested in taking the fight to Shaka, I have more and better land than everyone else on my continent, I just want him to leave me along. I'm also worried that Tokugawa will boat over and take my land.

I did go for Music, I'm not sure if that was a mistake as I think I should have gone for Civil Service. I teched code of laws, but I've been spared hammers to build courthouses. I should be on track for Liberalism, I managed to bulb Philosophy and netted myself Taoism, that should slow down their Liberalism attempts.