Need more control of land auto-acquistion choices

[Smokeybear]

Pretty obvious that the city governors, or whatever engine it is that controls which new tiles your cities expand into, is pretty incredibly biased towards food tiles over hammer tiles... which is really a bad thing, in my opinion.

How many times have you sat and watched while it chose only food tiles, even very marginal ones, time after time, when what you really _desperately_ need are production tiles? Forcing you to waste critical gold reserves (if lucky enough to have any) to purchase insanely overpriced hill or forest tiles just so you can have a hammer or two to start building stuff with?

And all the while, it goes out of its way to snake little tendrils of tiles *all around and between* those production tiles, favoring lousy 1-food-only plains or tundra tiles over luscious mining tiles which you sadly and desperately drool at in frustration because they are being ignored interminably?

This really needs fixed. There is no logical reason that it shouldn't be a fixed 50/50 food/production ratio when it makes these decisions, IMO. Or at least no more than a 2/1 food/production ratio... as it is, i've seen the damnable game choose 5, 8, 10 or more food tiles in a row when you are completely overstocked on food and dying for hammer tiles. It's simply maddening.

They need to allow a player-controlled feature in the city government section, so you can tell it what you need, and it will then either favor that kind of tile or even go 100% only into that kind of tile (would be my preference), until you tell it different or slip it into 'neutral' again. It's is senseless to force you to waste gold on hammer tiles just because the default chooser sucks and is biased so incredibly badly.

 

[stealth_nsk]

You could always buy them. That's what land buying is designed for. Automatic land grabbing is supposed to represent natural settling of people.

 

[Roxlimn]

Tile Acquisition Priority is part of the game, and forms part of the decision for exactly where you're going to settle the city. It goes without saying that a settling position that grabs many of the strongest hammer tiles in the first ring is ideal. There are also prioritizations on resources that you can exploit to direct acquisition.

Tile acquisition is also directed by rivers and mountains, in case you didn't already know, OP.

 

[Smokeybear]

There are also prioritizations on resources that you can exploit to direct acquisition.

Tile acquisition is also directed by rivers and mountains, in case you didn't already know, OP.

Please explain about how and what you mean by directing your city's priorities for tile acquisition? Are you referring to the population placement section of the city screen? I thought that was solely for directing your city on how to populate already improved tiles, and had nothing to do with what tiles the city would prioritize for ongoing acquisitions?

As for the rivers and mountains, sure, I've noticed mountains are almost always skipped around until nothing much else is left, but that doesn't have any real affect on what other types of tiles get selected first. As for rivers, I've noticed that the game usually automatically selects the food tiles alongside them as first priority, yeah. Again, a factor of poorly biased tile selection coding, in my opinion.

Settlers and developers in any civ would be smart enough to grab valuable mining and lumber resources on a regular basis, along with farming property. That the game ignores this common sense and skips past most of it until all the farming tiles are selected first, is utterly stupid to me.

 

[Roxlimn]

Smoekybear:

I mean that Rivers restrict tile acquisition in a similar manner to hills and mountains. If you haven't noted, unless you already own a tile over the river, tile acquisition will restricted to the near side.

You can influence tile acquisition through settling location and tile purchasing. In some cases, purchasing all the flatlands tiles, usually for cheaper costs, will allow tile acquisition to acquire Hills and Forest tiles more quickly. In other cases, purchasing the Hills and Forest tiles direct could allow tile acquisition to prioritize flatlands production resource tiles on the other side, if they aren't duly predisposed before.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Settlers and developers in any civ would be smart enough to grab valuable mining and lumber resources on a regular basis, along with farming property. That the game ignores this common sense and skips past most of it until all the farming tiles are selected first, is utterly stupid to me.

It's not designed to grab perfect tiles. You have tile buying for it. I mean these 2 systems needs to be different enough to coexist.

 

[Strategist83]

You should simply work around this issue by always settling in spots that will immediately grab some hills/other source of production.

But yes, I agree - the system is incredibly daft. The city governor will likewise avoid water resource tiles like the plague, making sea-based cities that much harder to get up and running. It clearly has nothing to do with creating some sort of 'balance' through this tile selection system - just a sloppily programmed model that fails to grab the correct tiles. Once again, as usual, blame Failaxis.

 

[Roxlimn]

Strategist83:

If the tile acquisition algorithm always went for the tiles that were optimal, then there wouldn't be much of a point to purchasing tiles manually, now, would there?

 

[Strategist83]

My point was that since sea tiles are clearly unfairly ignored, the system as a whole is incomplete and broken. The governor will go out of its way to grab luxury tiles but not if they're in the sea. Unless, of course, you think it's reasonable that the game strongly biases against naval civs in case of which I suppose everything is fine.

 

[Smokeybear]

You should simply work around this issue by always settling in spots that will immediately grab some hills/other source of production.

But yes, I agree - the system is incredibly daft. The city governor will likewise avoid water resource tiles like the plague, making sea-based cities that much harder to get up and running. It clearly has nothing to do with creating some sort of 'balance' through this tile selection system - just a sloppily programmed model that fails to grab the correct tiles. Once again, as usual, blame Failaxis.

Thanks to all who replied. I was already aware of all those things each of you mentioned, although I don't remember anywhere in the literature or 'manual' or available official online info, where we are told "you are supposed to have to buy production tiles yourself, because they will always be the AI's last choice in tile acquisitions". No, I think it is just a sad necessity resulting from poorly thought-out coding, not any intended 'feature'.

Unless you go launch-shopping for a perfect lux/resource setup every time you start a new game, you will inevitably end up with less-than-perfect resource starts, and often entire starting areas where your first 4 or more cities are going to have to scrimp for every hammer they can scrounge up, to avoid becoming civ roadkill. And even with all the best gold-collection skills and some early lux trading, you still often don't have a whole lot of spare gold lying around to be wasting buying up real estate as if you were Donald Trump in a loincloth.

That limited early gold *should* be saved and spent on key starter units, CS's and RA's as soon as possible, not wasted buying up tiles that *shouldn't* be getting ignorantly ignored and passed up by the dufus AI in the first place. That they are being passed up makes no sense. That I should have to waste gold to do the AI governor's job for it, or somehow 'teach' it how to do its job correctly, just makes me shake my head in wonderment.

So ok, then let us manage it, like we should be able to. If you have a section of the city screen for telling the governor what type of resources you want it to focus on for citizen placement, then also allow us to tell it what type of resource tiles to focus on for acquisition. Got 10 food tiles now and only using 4 of them, while desperately in need of mines and/or lumber (and you only have 34 gold to your name)? Click a checkbox to tell it to switch to that focus until told otherwise. Now THAT makes sense. You can adjust just about everything else that your cities do, so what is the point of leaving tile acquisition choices up to a braindead AI that makes choices worthy of a lobotomized chinchilla?

Being forced to waste gold on tiles that are being stupidly bypassed for no reason whatsoever by the AI doesn't feel like a sensible part of the game- it just feels stupid.

 

[Smokeybear]

Strategist83:

If the tile acquisition algorithm always went for the tiles that were optimal, then there wouldn't be much of a point to purchasing tiles manually, now, would there?

There never was, and shouldn't need to be any need to waste gold in that fashion, unless you choose to for your own desires. Do you enjoy being forced to waste gold on tiles that the AI SHOULD have chosen already on its own for FREE? That makes no sense, and sounds rather mashochistic. Throwing money away for nothing is as appealing in a game as it is in life, if you don't happen to have a lot.

And I wasn't asking for a 'perfect' algorithm that always made the best choices... no, just one that uses semi-sensible ratios, maybe 2/1 food/production, or 1/1, or whatever makes sense... or better yet, let us decide in the city screen what the current focus or ratio should be for picking new tiles. Because what I see all to often, are ratios like 5/1, or even 10/1... and that just sucks... your bank account.

 

[Lord Chambers]

The game is trying to simulate the spread of influence and culture. Historically, hilly areas and mountainous areas were the last area to receive the benefits of civilization/come under rule. This is represented by flatlands being cheapest, resources or not, and rivers, hills, and mountains increasing the cultural expense. The more influential a city the more easily it assimilates surrounding areas.

I have no reason to suspect there is anything sloppy about the model. You may critique it's value as a gameplay mechanic, but it most likely was a conscientious decision. I do have reason to suspect your complaint has the same unsophisticated motivation as a child who doesn't get candy every time it wants. You may already be aware that many people have a self-reflective mechanism which allows them to differentiate between reasoned analysis and throwing a fit.

 

[Smokeybear]

The game is trying to simulate the spread of influence and culture. Historically, hilly areas and mountainous areas were the last area to receive the benefits of civilization/come under rule. This is represented by flatlands being cheapest, resources or not, and rivers, hills, and mountains increasing the cultural expense. The more influential a city the more easily it assimilates surrounding areas.

I have no reason to suspect there is anything sloppy about the model. You may critique it's value as a gameplay mechanic, but it most likely was a conscientious decision. I do have reason to suspect your complaint has the same unsophisticated motivation as a child who doesn't get candy every time it wants. You may already be aware that many people have a self-reflective mechanism which allows them to differentiate between reasoned analysis and throwing a fit.

Sorry, I do get into my pro/con discussions. My apologies if it wasn't collegiate enough for you. Well, if what you say is true, it would have to be the one realistic thing they decided to leave in CiV, I reckon. Can't knock that I guess. Viva la realism in CiV!

 

[Roxlimn]

There never was, and shouldn't need to be any need to waste gold in that fashion, unless you choose to for your own desires. Do you enjoy being forced to waste gold on tiles that the AI SHOULD have chosen already on its own for FREE? That makes no sense, and sounds rather mashochistic. Throwing money away for nothing is as appealing in a game as it is in life, if you don't happen to have a lot.

And I wasn't asking for a 'perfect' algorithm that always made the best choices... no, just one that uses semi-sensible ratios, maybe 2/1 food/production, or 1/1, or whatever makes sense... or better yet, let us decide in the city screen what the current focus or ratio should be for picking new tiles. Because what I see all to often, are ratios like 5/1, or even 10/1... and that just sucks... your bank account.

If you're getting the hammer tiles you want, then you're not throwing away the money for nothing, are you? The chief problem seems to be that you don't enjoy the gold purchase mechanic and prefer that the culture acquisition mechanic be more or less the same thing; and again, I have to ask, if the culture mechanic does what the gold purchase mechanic already allows you to do, then what sense is there in having two mechanics for tile acquisition?

The AI is clearly not designed to make optimized choices of any sort. It is designed to prioritize open terrain, and I agree with Lord Chambers that this is plausibly to emulate realistic settling tendencies of people historically.

If you want cheaper tiles acquired by your own disposition, you could always play America.

 

[Smokeybear]

The AI is clearly not designed to make optimized choices of any sort. It is designed to prioritize open terrain, and I agree with Lord Chambers that this is plausibly to emulate realistic settling tendencies of people historically.

Not optimized at all, looks like to me. How tough is it to program an AI to look at the currently available tiles on the perimeter of a city, note which kind of tiles were chosen over the past couple of selections, and apply a simple 2/1 food/production ratio to which kind of tile it chooses next (assuming availability of both types of tile, of course)? Ain't no rocket science programming in there. That makes much more sense to me than a wrongly simplistic, cheesy (and lazy) 'always choose the flat ground with no trees on it' method.

And as for the theory that paying gold for most lands that aren't food tiles is somehow 'necessary' is concerned, in my opinion, it is only 'necessary', because the tile auto-selection is so screwed up, not because it makes any particular sense, historically or gamewise. Historically, civilizations chose whatever lands had resources they needed for the benefit and survival of their country, not just flat farmland.

And you are the king, dammit! If you want your people to move into production areas and work mines and lumber because it's in the best interest of the survival and/or expansion of your kingdom (which it sure as heck is), then you bloody well should have the power to make those decisions a see that they 'make it so'. You don't have to empty your coffers to buy food tiles for your people, and unless some other civ 'owned' that empty land over there with the iron/gold/trees/whatever on it (which, of course, they don't), you sure as heck shouldn't have to pay any gold for that, either. You just took it and expanded into it as was your right (with a more accurate and realistic and not-so-horribly-biased tile selection algorithm).

So, if someone is to play the 'realism' card and claim that overly-biased auto-selection of farm tiles (without having to pay any gold for them in the game) is somehow more realistic historically... then unfortunately, the game mechanic of your kingdom being forced to pay gold it if wants to acquire equally-important production resource lands, simply blows that questionable realism claim out of the water.

If farm lands are so inherently more valuable to everyone, then how come you get all of that for free, but the lands 'no dirt-farm settler wants', cost your treasury an arm and a leg to acquire? Makes no sense to me. Prospectors, miners, and lumbermen were even more enterprising and adventurous than farmers, and needed no prompting from goverments to go discover and improve those resources.

You can still blow wads of gold if you want to (and if you lucky enough to have any), to make a quick grab for some particular resources that otherwise wouldn't be available through regular tile expansion for a while, or to deny them to a nearby civ, or for other various strategic reasons. THAT is what I envision as the primary usefulness and necessity for buying tiles with gold. Otherwise, your civ should apply a realistic and balanced ratio towards tile expansion, that includes production tiles on a regular basis- not as a long-deferred afterthought.

 

[Roxlimn]

Smokeybear:

Generally, prospectors, miners, and lumbermen only came in when there was some sort of valuable mineral or good in the remote locations, which is actually fairly represented by a high prioritization of Resource tiles, flatlands or otherwise. The settling of remote locations with plausible benefits to society generally required a lack of livable land around (desperate prospectors) or some sort of government incentive program, which could represent the gold purchase.

Not optimized at all, looks like to me. How tough is it to program an AI to look at the currently available tiles on the perimeter of a city, note which kind of tiles were chosen over the past couple of selections, and apply a simple 2/1 food/production ratio to which kind of tile it chooses next (assuming availability of both types of tile, of course)? Ain't no rocket science programming in there. That makes much more sense to me than a wrongly simplistic, cheesy (and lazy) 'always choose the flat ground with no trees on it' method.

It would be better for your personal play purposes, no doubt, but it wouldn't make sense from a design perspective of having two methods of acquisition. If the one method would almost always give the player the tiles he wants, there would be no need for tile purchase, and it would be a simpler, less complex game as a result.

 

[pspboy7]

Food should be a priority for natural city growth, otherwise your cities will starve, no? Think about it hehe.

 

[Smokeybear]

It would be better for your personal play purposes, no doubt, but it wouldn't make sense from a design perspective of having two methods of acquisition. If the one method would almost always give the player the tiles he wants, there would be no need for tile purchase, and it would be a simpler, less complex game as a result.

No, you could still use gold to buy tiles when it suited you, such as to nab any kind of resource tile you took a fancy to that wouldn't otherwise be available very soon- like that lux out there 3 or 4 tiles away from your city when you need the happiness sooner instead of later, for example. Or to supply your workers with more tiles to improve, if they've caught up with the current ones available and are idling around. Or to grab resources before nearby civs can steal them. Or to block out areas or passes or other bottlenecks so that opposing civs can't get by to infiltrate or steal from you- strategic purposes.

That is what I see as the purpose for spending gold on tiles. But I don't see having to buy most of the production tiles within your own borderlands with your limited gold reserves, as being more complex, or more interesting. Only more annoying, and unnecessary. Gold has a lot of important uses, and wasting it for that shouldn't be one of them, in my personal opinion.

 

[Smokeybear]

Food should be a priority for natural city growth, otherwise your cities will starve, no? Think about it hehe.

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just saying it should be a *reasonable* priority, like 2 food tiles for every production tile, for example. Currently, it is far worse than that. Almost always, I have like 10 food tiles shortly after the start, most of which aren't even improved yet and couldn't be used for a long time even if you wanted to, because you don't have nearly that many citizens yet. Meanwhile, critical unaquired production tiles right near the central ring of your city are ignored, while your civ languishes for lack of production. Ok, so instead of being able to order your faithful serfs to pick production tiles and start mining and lumbering, which should be your right as the King who knows what is needed, and lay off the silly, unusable 10/1 food tile BS, no- instead you gotta buy them with gold you should be using for more settlers, workers, soldiers, CS bribes, etc. I'd be fine with it if all those stupid excess food tiles the game picks for you were actually useful or helpful at that point.... but they aren't. They are an utter waste of tile picks. Which is the frustrating part.

 

[GrayingGamer]

There should be a building that allows you to influence and/or choose where your natural expansion goes.