Mowque
Hypermodernist
I sometimes read the guides here and i reized somthing, many peoples stargey use slavery. i have never whipped anything in any of my cities. Am i missing out on something big here?
never Whipped?
- Thread starter Mowque
- Start date
cleverhandle
King
Yes.
But I suppose you want a better answer than that...
You might try searching around the forums for some of the mathematical analyses of whipping, because there have been some pretty detailed ones. The key point is that you never want to whip just a single pop (apart from emergencies), because the 1 unhappy face you get from whipping is always just 1, regardless of how many people you whip. If you time your builds so that you can whip a building for 2 pop as soon as you grow past the happiness limit, you can get 60 or more hammers in exchange for one less working citizen (since 1 was unhappy and not working anyway). In the early game, it's very unlikely that a single citizen over ten turns will produce production and/or commerce equal in value to 60 hammers.
But I suppose you want a better answer than that...
You might try searching around the forums for some of the mathematical analyses of whipping, because there have been some pretty detailed ones. The key point is that you never want to whip just a single pop (apart from emergencies), because the 1 unhappy face you get from whipping is always just 1, regardless of how many people you whip. If you time your builds so that you can whip a building for 2 pop as soon as you grow past the happiness limit, you can get 60 or more hammers in exchange for one less working citizen (since 1 was unhappy and not working anyway). In the early game, it's very unlikely that a single citizen over ten turns will produce production and/or commerce equal in value to 60 hammers.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 9,408
You are missing a lot.
You can turn unhappy citizens who don't contribute anything to your empire but civic upkeep into hammers.
And whipping agranary asap will let your population grow much faster than a building it without rushing. You can then reinvest the people.
After capturing a city I immediately whip all unhappy citizens to get a granary, forge, courthouse or temple.
You can turn unhappy citizens who don't contribute anything to your empire but civic upkeep into hammers.
And whipping agranary asap will let your population grow much faster than a building it without rushing. You can then reinvest the people.
After capturing a city I immediately whip all unhappy citizens to get a granary, forge, courthouse or temple.
Stolen Rutters
Deity
You trade population and a short term -1 happy 
for a one time 30 
infusion. There are cases when this is a good trade-off.
When the population of your city reaches the happy limit, any additional population will just be angry and unproductive. That's two food that is not going to help feed an useful pop. Why not whip it instead?
The -1 happy is per whip, not per pop. If the build in the queue takes two pop or three, you get -1 happy regardless, so if you are one pop over the happy cap, you can whip two pop for minimal disruption. It works best with a granary (cuts regrowth time in half).
If you do it right, you can actually get better production with whipping as opposed to not whipping. If your happy cap is low (higher levels), you will frequently have useless and angry population far more often than lower difficulty levels. Whipping can help get over that restriction, especially if you whip a granary, then a worker, then a settler, for instance. The higher the happy cap gets, the less often you will want to use the whip.
for a one time 30 infusion. There are cases when this is a good trade-off.When the population of your city reaches the happy limit, any additional population will just be angry and unproductive. That's two food that is not going to help feed an useful pop. Why not whip it instead?
The -1 happy is per whip, not per pop. If the build in the queue takes two pop or three, you get -1 happy regardless, so if you are one pop over the happy cap, you can whip two pop for minimal disruption. It works best with a granary (cuts regrowth time in half).
If you do it right, you can actually get better production with whipping as opposed to not whipping. If your happy cap is low (higher levels), you will frequently have useless and angry population far more often than lower difficulty levels. Whipping can help get over that restriction, especially if you whip a granary, then a worker, then a settler, for instance. The higher the happy cap gets, the less often you will want to use the whip.
automator
King
I too am missing out on the whip. It must be my aversion to slavery.
I typically find that if I whip cheap things, like warriors, then the unhappiness from opression builds up too fast. Switch to a more expensive item, like a granary or a library. You'll lose more population, but you'll get more shields and the whipping of 2 or 3 or 4 causes the same unhappiness as the whipping of 1.
Once I get access to the resources and other stuff to keep my pop happy, I'm typically tempted to stop whipping and let my people live. It'd probably most effiecient, however, if you keep right along whipping even when you don't need it to control crowding.
Once I get access to the resources and other stuff to keep my pop happy, I'm typically tempted to stop whipping and let my people live. It'd probably most effiecient, however, if you keep right along whipping even when you don't need it to control crowding.
Barney's_Soul
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2006
- Messages
- 205
I know your sutuation - so hear me out. IF YOU DON'T WHIP - your capitel WILL run into happiness problems, and sooo.....get SLAVERY and whip something useful out, your city will regain its population in a few turns and it will be just fine as you won't have a happiness problem(until your city regrows), that way you'll be able to deal with happiness issues until you get drama/monarchy and increse the happiness cap.Mowque said:
P.S Only whip once every 10 turns or so - or your city will lose to much population.
Apart from happiness cap and angry considerations, whipping is like changing one population to 30 (sometimes 60) shields in vanilla civ4. To get 60 shields you need either a forge or the organized religion civic (for buildings), or depending on your leader traits or special resources you get bonus for building certain things. (In warlord the bug was fixed and you always get 30 plus adjustments for forge, etc. ) You also lose some productivities during the turns for your city to grow back.
First, how many food = one population? The smaller the number the more benefits, but the difference is not big. If you whip a size 2 city to size 1, you get 30/60 shields but lose the food for the city to grow back to size 2 (with granary, the number is 11). If whipping from size 4 to 3, you only need 13 food to grow back. You also lose several turns of extra productivity (commerce on a worked river square, etc.) Generally speaking, when your city is small, you may not be able to quickly accumulate enough initial shields to 'qualify' for a whip. Therefore you may want to stay at a larger size (and be able to whip more than one population).
Second, do you run into happiness cap? Before drama is researched you are likely get to this cap. So your food is wasted and you should whip to convert food to shield. However once you can adjust the culture bar you don't need to worry about this.
Third, the angry problem. You can only whip once every 10 turns to avoid angry from accumulating. Again once you can adjust the culture bar, you worry less about angry. You can run +4 angry faces without any problem with a theatre and 20% culture rate. Especially when you whip for a temple, you really don't need to worry too much.
Hope you get the idea: research drama right after alphabet, then adjust culture bar to take care of the happiness/angry problems; stay at a size where you can quickly accumulate some shields to qualify for whipping, then just do it.
First, how many food = one population? The smaller the number the more benefits, but the difference is not big. If you whip a size 2 city to size 1, you get 30/60 shields but lose the food for the city to grow back to size 2 (with granary, the number is 11). If whipping from size 4 to 3, you only need 13 food to grow back. You also lose several turns of extra productivity (commerce on a worked river square, etc.) Generally speaking, when your city is small, you may not be able to quickly accumulate enough initial shields to 'qualify' for a whip. Therefore you may want to stay at a larger size (and be able to whip more than one population).
Second, do you run into happiness cap? Before drama is researched you are likely get to this cap. So your food is wasted and you should whip to convert food to shield. However once you can adjust the culture bar you don't need to worry about this.
Third, the angry problem. You can only whip once every 10 turns to avoid angry from accumulating. Again once you can adjust the culture bar, you worry less about angry. You can run +4 angry faces without any problem with a theatre and 20% culture rate. Especially when you whip for a temple, you really don't need to worry too much.
Hope you get the idea: research drama right after alphabet, then adjust culture bar to take care of the happiness/angry problems; stay at a size where you can quickly accumulate some shields to qualify for whipping, then just do it.
TrailblazingScot
I was kittenOFchaos
Barney's_Soul said:
This guy needs to build more mines...
Barney's_Soul
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2006
- Messages
- 205
Mines give production....what's your point?kittenOFchaos said:
This thread's about whipping, not mines.
Barney's_Soul said:
And mines have low food, generally.
So if you cannot grow more because of happiness cap, working mines instead of farms will do the food for hammers conversion.
There are numerous thread on this issue.
search for "convince me" as thread title, you should find one.
I'm a slaver (in the game only!) but only until there is a solution to happiness problems. After that, slavery isn't the best thing you can use.
Emancipation will give you fast growing cottages, and that's great.
Caste system will give value to every population point, and thats great.
I have a resolute attitude towards whipping when
- I have no more good tiles to work
- I have no other solution to happiness problems
- emergency (wanting to obliterate a neighbour is an emergency
)- growth help (granary, lighthouse, or culture buildings or happiness buildings) = you grow quicker/ better with the whip than without
TrailblazingScot
I was kittenOFchaos
Barney's_Soul said:
You are talking about having population easily outrun happiness before theaters and that is a product of too few mines - to run mines you need to cut down your food surplus and growth of population isn't as quick.
I'll slave, but in emergencies, when I want to launch an attack now, secure a wonder that I desperately desire, but for common and garden production I'll only happen in high food cities that lack hills or other high shield/gold tiles.
