New Research Style

Matthew5117

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For Civ V for even an expansion pack for Civ IV, I would like to see an improvement in researching. Not that it isn't good enough, it just doesn't seem to inspire a strategy.

I would like several techs to be researched at the same time instead of having one only being researched. So maybe each city would be destined to research one specific technology while other cities can research the same one to speed up the beakers being produced to complete it. Meanwhile, other cities can research other technologies. If this would be too much micro-management, you can also enable a setting that allows what you do now in Civ IV, just researching one technology at a time.

What do you think?
 
There should also be a new adviser screen that displayed your research and research rate on each tech and also which city(s) are researching it.
 
Yeah, of course. I just wanted to give the overall perspective.
 
What is the benefit to this? All it would do is slow down how fast you can actually use a technology. Unless I'm misreading what you are writing, the best strategy would be to always have every city help one of them finish what it is researching so that you can use it quicker (unless there are some other features to this system that you haven't written).
 
What I am saying is basically that you can research multiple technologies at a time. For example, if you wanted Mathematics, Alphabet and Priesthood all at the same time, each 1/3 of your civilization would research one of those technologies. This way you can start working on the Hanging Gardens, trade a few technologies and also work on the Oracle to obtain a free technology.

On the other hand, you could get the benefits the technologies give earlier by letting the whole civilization research it. To solve this, I would also like some bonus for not having multiple cities research the same technology, this way the game influences you to have each city research its own technology. For example, you lose time when multiple cities research a technology because the cities have to communicate between each other and share the the progress they have made in researching the technology. As a result, as I said, the game influences you to have each city research its own technology. I would also think the game would be more balanced as a result of this.
 
This seems like it would be making it more complicated just to make it more complicated, and then creating a disadvantage to make this system that way instead of how it's done now. You'll have to clue us in on why we'd want this.
 
I have a different idea for this. How about instead of having each city work on a tech, you can devote a certain percent of your research to each tech. The new screen would be kind of like the espionage screen with the civs replaced with the techs that you can research (all of the ones that are available). You would assign each tech a weight (like for espionage) and that would determine how many beakers are devoted to researching it. Where the espionage missions are, you would have the green bars that show your research for that tech. The green bar in the normal screen would show your research for the tech that you are devoting the most beakers to.
 
Ok, I understand but would you still have the (overall) research slider option still? Or would you make it so that you can choose up to a sum of 100% for your researching and divide it according to the specific technology?

Personally, I think it would be cool to have the overall research slider still in use and divide that into the specific technologies you want to research. For example, you can have the research slider at 70% and maybe 50% of that you want it to go towards Alphabet. So really 35% of your researching capabilities would go towards Alphabet.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Tibur, but then people will just spend 100% of the beakers towards only one technology and it will be the same, and those people will get their techs earlier than the ones that divide their beakers towards different techs. I would suggest making a tax on each tech, and that the tech would go higher the more % you invest on the tech, (somelike like -20% beakers per turn for 100% invested and -10% beakers per turn for 70% invested)
 
Tibur, but then people will just spend 100% of the beakers towards only one technology and it will be the same, and those people will get their techs earlier than the ones that divide their beakers towards different techs.

I also thought of that too, you could get the benefits earlier, however, you wouldn't get as many benefits. If you could research Alphabet, Mathematics and Priesthood all at the same time, you could benefit trading techs, start building the Hanging Gardens and try to finish the Oracle.

I would suggest making a tax on each tech, and that the tech would go higher the more % you invest on the tech, (somelike like -20% beakers per turn for 100% invested and -10% beakers per turn for 70% invested)

That's what I said:

To solve this, I would also like some bonus for not having multiple cities research the same technology, this way the game influences you to have each city research its own technology. For example, you lose time when multiple cities research a technology because the cities have to communicate between each other and share the the progress they have made in researching the technology.
 
I also thought of that too, you could get the benefits earlier, however, you wouldn't get as many benefits. If you could research Alphabet, Mathematics and Priesthood all at the same time, you could benefit trading techs, start building the Hanging Gardens and try to finish the Oracle.



That's what I said:

How are you getting more benefits by waiting? If each tech took five turns to complete then by researching all three at once would get three techs after 15 turns. If you researched each separately, after 15 turns you have all the same techs you would if you did them individually but you'd already have spent 5 turns building the Hanging Gardens and 10 turns building the Oracle.

Ask the Jewish kids. If you get eight gifts for Christmas and the Jewish kid gets one gift a day for eight days of Hanukkah, you each get the same number of gifts but he's playing first.
 
How are you getting more benefits by waiting? If each tech took five turns to complete then by researching all three at once would get three techs after 15 turns. If you researched each separately, after 15 turns you have all the same techs you would if you did them individually but you'd already have spent 5 turns building the Hanging Gardens and 10 turns building the Oracle.

Ask the Jewish kids. If you get eight gifts for Christmas and the Jewish kid gets one gift a day for eight days of Hanukkah, you each get the same number of gifts but he's playing first.

I thought of that too.

I guess it depends on your priorities. Let's say that you select each third of your civilization to research one of these techs: Alphabet, Mathematics and Priesthood. If this occurred, you would lose two thirds of you researching potential for each tech as opposed to researching one tech at a time. As a result, you would multiply 2/3 with 5 (the # of turns it takes to research a tech, I chose 5 because Minor Annoyance used it.) 2/3 times 5 is 3 and 2/3, add this with 5 and you have 8 and 2/3. You would lose 4 turns by dividing you civilization into researching multiple techs. With this, you could trade techs, start building the Oracle and the Hanging Gardens all at the same time 6 turns earlier than what it would take to research all of the techs one by one. This is why this new researching style really depends on your priorities because if you want to start building the Oracle earlier, you would research Priesthood first with your full potential. However, if you want to trade techs and start buidling the Oracle at the same time, research them both at the same time. On the other hand, if you want to get all the benefits at one time, research each tech equally among your civilization.
 
I thought of that too.

I guess it depends on your priorities. Let's say that you select each third of your civilization to research one of these techs: Alphabet, Mathematics and Priesthood. If this occurred, you would lose two thirds of you researching potential for each tech as opposed to researching one tech at a time. As a result, you would multiply 2/3 with 5 (the # of turns it takes to research a tech, I chose 5 because Minor Annoyance used it.) 2/3 times 5 is 3 and 2/3, add this with 5 and you have 8 and 2/3. You would lose 4 turns by dividing you civilization into researching multiple techs. With this, you could trade techs, start building the Oracle and the Hanging Gardens all at the same time 7 turns earlier than what it would take to research all of the techs one by one. This is why this new researching style really depends on your priorities because if you want to start building the Oracle earlier, you would research Priesthood first with your full potential. However, if you want to trade techs and start buidling the Oracle at the same time, research them both at the same time. On the other hand, if you want to get all the benefits at one time, research each tech equally among your civilization.

At least there is an advantage for this now, but I still don't like it, and it still would bog down your research in the long run. Take the above example. You don't research Mathematics, Priesthood, and Alphabet at the same time. You research Alphabet, and trade for Priesthood and Mathematics. You get all three techs before you would get them if you split them up. This even works for later techs. Instead of researching Physics, Communism, and Chemistry, you research Physics, then trade for Communism and Chemistry.

The only way I see this to be of any use at all, is in Tech Trading Disabled games. Which only happens in multiplayer, and in multiplayer, you need that next tech NOW or your opponent will waltz over your corpse with more advanced units. You can't wait 5 extra turns. That makes this very situation, and very complicated.
 
At least there is an advantage for this now, but I still don't like it, and it still would bog down your research in the long run. Take the above example. You don't research Mathematics, Priesthood, and Alphabet at the same time. You research Alphabet, and trade for Priesthood and Mathematics. You get all three techs before you would get them if you split them up. This even works for later techs. Instead of researching Physics, Communism, and Chemistry, you research Physics, then trade for Communism and Chemistry.

The only way I see this to be of any use at all, is in Tech Trading Disabled games. Which only happens in multiplayer, and in multiplayer, you need that next tech NOW or your opponent will waltz over your corpse with more advanced units. You can't wait 5 extra turns. That makes this very situation, and very complicated.

What about an isolated start? This would make an isolated start a lot easier. Also, what about if all of your continent's civilizations are whipped out? You got no one to trade with.

Even so, what if no one has those techs? What if someone else has a tech that you wanted but you had nothing to trade for it, or at least he/she wouldn't accept your offer? You could research two techs at the same time, make use of them, while trading them for the tech you want from the other civ. I mean, you could research one tech and trade it but if you research two, numerous advantages come to account. For example, if the other civ researches one of the techs you researched, you can't trade it but you still have the other tech that you obtained at the same time. Or equal, he/she wouldn't accept a trade for one tech, however he/she would accept two techs, therefore allowing you to obtain the one you wanted.
 
What is the benefit to this? All it would do is slow down how fast you can actually use a technology. Unless I'm misreading what you are writing, the best strategy would be to always have every city help one of them finish what it is researching so that you can use it quicker (unless there are some other features to this system that you haven't written).

Well, not quite. I would contrast it with the Hearts of Iron research system, in which you can research a maximum of 5 technologies at once, depending on your civilization's economic strength. The difference there is that you can invest in 1 or 2 technologies that take a really long time to research, while devoting the rest of the slots to more immediate, practical developments. There is no satisfactory way to mimic this in Civ that I know of that retains the same level of realism.

For instance, it takes years to develop an atomic bomb, and still more to develop a fusion bomb once you unlock fission ones. (The timeline is obviously much shorter than Civ's, but proportionally, the tech line takes longer to research than any Civ counterpart.) Yet in Civ, you cannot represent this adequately without making a tech very high in cost -- so high that the other guy will have discovered three more lesser techs while you are researching the complex one.

There is such a disparity because HoI's tech tree is markedly different from Civ's: Civ 4 has a more-or-less linear approach -- you move "forward" more than you branch out-- whereas HoI's is more of a pyramid. There are so many different areas to research that it is very difficult to get too far into one quickly, because you will fall behind in other areas. My point is that the Civ tech tree would have be redesigned to compensate for a multiple research system, which might actually be interesting. I know of several mods that would benefit.

Moral of the story: there are advantages to having several research queues, and I would like to see that, but I doubt they will make it into Civ any time soon.
 
Well, obviously they won't incorporate it into a game for us but I just wanted to hear what other people thought. Personally, I think it would be very cool to be able to research multiple techs at a time.
 
As has been told to you, it is MUCH better to focus all your research into one tech at a time, and that's what everyone will do, so there's no point in doing it this way. In fact, you can simply change your research every turn, so you can already do what you're trying to.

However, try this: go in WB and plop down 3 cities in the middle of a grassland plain with a high population (like 10 or something - you'll need no water, forest/jungle, or hills/peaks, but put a river right down the middle to get irrigation from - they should be identical and boring) and give them sufficient health and happiness buildings and a Granary. Connect them with a Road so they have Trade Routes to each other (this will help alleviate increased costs due to population). Plop 5 Workers IN 2 of the cities, and leave the third alone. Set your production to gold and your slider to 100% gold. Give yourself the first 2-3 Eras of techs and Biology. Now save it.

City #1 is your city. Send your 5 Workers out to separate tiles and improve them with Farms. City #2 is my city. Group my Workers into a single unit and send the group to a single tile and Farm it. City #3 is the control city, which will tell us how much of a difference there really is between the two cities.

Keep this going until each city has 10 improved tiles (equal to our original populations), then go a few more turns - 60 turns should be sufficient to minimize the effects of any accidental wasted Worker-turns. If Specialists are required (pop goes over 20) assign them as Merchants, Engineers, Priests, or Citizens.

Now compare the three cities. The Control city should have a population of 12-13, your city should have a population of 14-16, and mine should have a population of 15-18. (You should also see higher-valued Trade Routes.) It took the Workers the exact same amount of time to build all 10 Farms for each city, so why is my city so much bigger than yours?

It's because I focused. It takes 5 Worker-turns to build a Farm. I built a Farm every turn and had each of those turns to use that completed Farm for population growth. You built 5 Farms every 5 turns - by that time I already had TEN EXTRA farming-turns of growth! (1+2+3+4, then at turn 5 we've got equal Farms again.)

Each of these Farms represents a technology. I got a new "tech" each turn and made use of it, while you still had nothing. When we hit turn 5, I already did 10 "things" with my 4 techs.

You can see the same effect if you put money into savings. It's far better to put $100 in the bank every month than to put $1200 in every year. Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe! And that's what this is.

So if this doesn't convince you that your method is flawed, nothing will.

There are other ways to get what you want, but I don't know if they can be implemented in Civ or not.

One way I can think of is diminishing returns. Imagine that techs cost some small number of points (say 20-100) which must be bought for gold. 1 point costs 100 gold, 2 points cost 300 gold, 3 points cost 600 gold, and so on. Intense research costs progressively higher amounts of money. If you're allowed to spread your money around on multiple techs, it is more efficient to spread it to multiple techs, but you won't get anything done quickly. You have the option of focusing all (or most of) your research money in one area and get that tech one or two turns sooner, rather than in 1/2 or 1/3 the time.

Frex: say we have 1500 gpt to spend on research, and there are 5 techs we can spend on, and each requires 20 points of research.

We can spend all 1500 on a single tech, getting 5 points toward it, and research it in 4 turns. It will take 20 turns to get them all.

Alternately, we can devote 300 to each tech and get 2 points for each (total of 10 research points bought) and get them all in 10 turns.

Even more alternately, we could just spend 100 on each, and the remaining 1000 gold could be invested in the empire elsewhere. We'd spend only 500 per turn, get all the techs in 20 turns, and have 20,000 gold to spare for whatever other projects we had.

This also makes it fairly easy to award "free" research points for if there are other players with this tech, or prereq techs that should make it easier/cheaper to research. Or you could alter the gold cost of the research points.

Another way I can think of would be to eliminate the traditional research model.

Research happens somewhere in the background, and is determined by a system similar to Civics, by your civ's and leader's traits, what your actions are, and what broad "area" you want your civ to focus on. The player wouldn't have any idea what the next tech would be or when it would arrive, only that he could influence things toward certain goals.

It would feel similar to the Great Person Production model we see now, but with actions standing in for Specialists as the influences. Influences would include what kinds of tile or city improvements you built, how big your army/navy was, whether most of your cities were coastal or inland, how aggressively you explore/update maps/fogbust, if you assign more Citizens to Farm/Mine/live in Cottages/be Specialists/etc., and I'm sure someone inventive could come up with all kinds of cool stuff to use as influences.

Behind the veil, these actions would devote research points to various techs. If you built defensive buildings, each one would devote beakers toward further defensive improvements. If you work a lot of Farms, you might get agricultural techs. If your army focuses on Mounted units, you might get Stables sooner. If you build Libraries, each could devote points to "pure research", which could be distributed to all areas equally. The traditional science slider would be for "pure research", but you could also focus part of it. Since you have no idea what's coming next or when you'll get it, AND simply having a focus doesn't throw all research toward that area, you can still see anything happening.

Throw in research bonuses for other civs having a particular tech. Throw in a diminishing returns model. Throw in minimum/maximum research times. Throw in seen or unseen random bonuses or penalties for some variety, and no two games will ever be the same. Each person's civ will automatically tailor itself toward the way that person likes to play, and you won't see any more "bee-line for CoL" advice.

Some things could work a little like the Events system does. If you have certain things, a certain event might occur which will give you a bonus in some area. The most direct thing I can think of would be having a preponderance of Pikemen might lead to that event where each Pike gets a free Melee promotion. Stuff like that.

So those are two ideas that I think could make non-focused research work.
 
Spoiler :
As has been told to you, it is MUCH better to focus all your research into one tech at a time, and that's what everyone will do, so there's no point in doing it this way. In fact, you can simply change your research every turn, so you can already do what you're trying to.

However, try this: go in WB and plop down 3 cities in the middle of a grassland plain with a high population (like 10 or something - you'll need no water, forest/jungle, or hills/peaks, but put a river right down the middle to get irrigation from - they should be identical and boring) and give them sufficient health and happiness buildings and a Granary. Connect them with a Road so they have Trade Routes to each other (this will help alleviate increased costs due to population). Plop 5 Workers IN 2 of the cities, and leave the third alone. Set your production to gold and your slider to 100% gold. Give yourself the first 2-3 Eras of techs and Biology. Now save it.

City #1 is your city. Send your 5 Workers out to separate tiles and improve them with Farms. City #2 is my city. Group my Workers into a single unit and send the group to a single tile and Farm it. City #3 is the control city, which will tell us how much of a difference there really is between the two cities.

Keep this going until each city has 10 improved tiles (equal to our original populations), then go a few more turns - 60 turns should be sufficient to minimize the effects of any accidental wasted Worker-turns. If Specialists are required (pop goes over 20) assign them as Merchants, Engineers, Priests, or Citizens.

Now compare the three cities. The Control city should have a population of 12-13, your city should have a population of 14-16, and mine should have a population of 15-18. (You should also see higher-valued Trade Routes.) It took the Workers the exact same amount of time to build all 10 Farms for each city, so why is my city so much bigger than yours?

It's because I focused. It takes 5 Worker-turns to build a Farm. I built a Farm every turn and had each of those turns to use that completed Farm for population growth. You built 5 Farms every 5 turns - by that time I already had TEN EXTRA farming-turns of growth! (1+2+3+4, then at turn 5 we've got equal Farms again.)

Each of these Farms represents a technology. I got a new "tech" each turn and made use of it, while you still had nothing. When we hit turn 5, I already did 10 "things" with my 4 techs.

You can see the same effect if you put money into savings. It's far better to put $100 in the bank every month than to put $1200 in every year. Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe! And that's what this is.

So if this doesn't convince you that your method is flawed, nothing will.

There are other ways to get what you want, but I don't know if they can be implemented in Civ or not.

One way I can think of is diminishing returns. Imagine that techs cost some small number of points (say 20-100) which must be bought for gold. 1 point costs 100 gold, 2 points cost 300 gold, 3 points cost 600 gold, and so on. Intense research costs progressively higher amounts of money. If you're allowed to spread your money around on multiple techs, it is more efficient to spread it to multiple techs, but you won't get anything done quickly. You have the option of focusing all (or most of) your research money in one area and get that tech one or two turns sooner, rather than in 1/2 or 1/3 the time.

Frex: say we have 1500 gpt to spend on research, and there are 5 techs we can spend on, and each requires 20 points of research.

We can spend all 1500 on a single tech, getting 5 points toward it, and research it in 4 turns. It will take 20 turns to get them all.

Alternately, we can devote 300 to each tech and get 2 points for each (total of 10 research points bought) and get them all in 10 turns.

Even more alternately, we could just spend 100 on each, and the remaining 1000 gold could be invested in the empire elsewhere. We'd spend only 500 per turn, get all the techs in 20 turns, and have 20,000 gold to spare for whatever other projects we had.

This also makes it fairly easy to award "free" research points for if there are other players with this tech, or prereq techs that should make it easier/cheaper to research. Or you could alter the gold cost of the research points.

Another way I can think of would be to eliminate the traditional research model.

Research happens somewhere in the background, and is determined by a system similar to Civics, by your civ's and leader's traits, what your actions are, and what broad "area" you want your civ to focus on. The player wouldn't have any idea what the next tech would be or when it would arrive, only that he could influence things toward certain goals.

It would feel similar to the Great Person Production model we see now, but with actions standing in for Specialists as the influences. Influences would include what kinds of tile or city improvements you built, how big your army/navy was, whether most of your cities were coastal or inland, how aggressively you explore/update maps/fogbust, if you assign more Citizens to Farm/Mine/live in Cottages/be Specialists/etc., and I'm sure someone inventive could come up with all kinds of cool stuff to use as influences.

Behind the veil, these actions would devote research points to various techs. If you built defensive buildings, each one would devote beakers toward further defensive improvements. If you work a lot of Farms, you might get agricultural techs. If your army focuses on Mounted units, you might get Stables sooner. If you build Libraries, each could devote points to "pure research", which could be distributed to all areas equally. The traditional science slider would be for "pure research", but you could also focus part of it. Since you have no idea what's coming next or when you'll get it, AND simply having a focus doesn't throw all research toward that area, you can still see anything happening.

Throw in research bonuses for other civs having a particular tech. Throw in a diminishing returns model. Throw in minimum/maximum research times. Throw in seen or unseen random bonuses or penalties for some variety, and no two games will ever be the same. Each person's civ will automatically tailor itself toward the way that person likes to play, and you won't see any more "bee-line for CoL" advice.

Some things could work a little like the Events system does. If you have certain things, a certain event might occur which will give you a bonus in some area. The most direct thing I can think of would be having a preponderance of Pikemen might lead to that event where each Pike gets a free Melee promotion. Stuff like that.

So those are two ideas that I think could make non-focused research work.

Wow, never seen a longer reply.

Like the ideas, on the other hand, in your experiment, you didn't make each improvement unique, meaning they were all the same. Technologies aren't all the same and they don't give the same features. All you get is a high population. If you were to make different improvements, you could have a balanced city. I understand your point, that if you focus on one thing, you get more progress, but you don't get as much variety. If you only have food and no production, you can't build buildings that multiply the food, granaries, stuff like that. You also gave yourself biology for free, in the real game you couldn't do this without making the game unfair.

You need balance, not compound interest.

How many times have you heard civ players saying that civ requires balance and not compound interest? Not many times, or you could even go as far as to saying never.

Researching multiple technologies at once, will give you balance, researching one technology will give you compound interest.
 
No, you have completely missed the point. Biology and irrigated farming were only to help exaggerate the effects so they would be more pronounced, and therefore easier to see. The example would work just as well with any tile improvements you choose and at almost any tech level, so long as there is SOME population growth, and everything is otherwise done as identically as possible (build same tile improvements in same locations). I also left out things that prematurely end Worker movement, to avoid wasted turns, which is an unnecessary handicap on your shotgunning city. More growth provides more obvious benefit, as it is always better to have more population, which can be put to more tasks. This should be blindingly obvious.

My original example called for running this experiment three times, and the two spare cities were there to show the increase in trade income, and the gold would be a direct and tangible measurement of how much extra commerce+production you get by taking advantage of getting your stuff built earlier. However, it occurred to me that it could be done all at once, and that population would be obvious enough of a benefit.

I suppose I shouldn't have assumed that what's obvious to 90% of the people is obvious to 100%, but I hoped you were in the 90%.

(If you want to see more really long (and hopefully readable - I sometimes meander and forget what I'm trying to say) posts, feel free to search for my posts.) ;)
 
This argument came up a while back for doing multiple builds in a city. I'm too lazy to search for it right now, but my solution was simple and could easily be used for multi-tech research too. In the beginning of the game, it's like now, you can only research one tech at a time, but as you earn certain techs, they open up the possibility of researching more than one at a time. You don't do any complicated or even simple math to divide the beakers amongst the techs being researched - you simply apply the full number of beakers per turn to each tech. In effect, your research capacity has just doubled. So, if you do 10 beakers per turn and you discover the tech that allows you to research two techs at a time, each of those two techs now receives 10 beakers per turn, for a total beaker production of 20 per turn. On the design side, all you really need to do is make later techs cost a little more to compensate for the additional research ability.

Ok, I went look for it now...
Here's the thread, scroll down to post #305, that's where the discussion starts:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251440&page=16

Or go directly to post #311, where it's fully explained:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6696846&postcount=311
 
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