New Unit (Galleon): What Do You Think?

Hurricane55

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I am thinking of creating a mod that adds a Galleon as a new unit to the game. This unit would be a renaissance-era (heavy) ranged warship that would basically be a more powerful, but also slower and more expensive, Frigate. I know that some people will say that the Frigate already serves the purpose of this unit. I understand this; the Galleon will be more for unit variety and historical realism than function. I've come up with some possible stats below:

Technology: Navigation
Moves: 4
Melee Strength: 30
Ranged Strength: 35
Range: 2
Production Cost: 220
Required Resources: 1 Iron
Upgrades From: None
Upgrades To: Battleship

Many of these stats are the same as the Ship of the Line, one of the English UUs. Please note that the Ship of the Line is still has advantages over the Galleon: it upgrades from the Galeass, is faster (5 moves), has the extra sight 1 promotion, and has a smaller production cost (185).

What do you think?
 
Q.) What role does this unit play?
A.) The exact same role as a frigate, only better.

The frigate is already incredibly proficient at it's role of coastal conqueror, so much so that it can be considered a design flaw. There are certain units that change conquest from a meticulous, tactical crawl to a laughable stroll through territory: crossbows, frigates, artillery, battleships, rocket artillery, nukes, XCOMs. Crossbows barely make this category because terrain can stifle them and their upgrade path means losing range. And with the exception of crossbows, frigates come about two eras before any other game-ender. The only thing that makes them somewhat acceptable is that they are limited to coastal attacks, but on an archipelago, they can end a game too early. A more powerful version of this is not something needed.

Also regarding role, the fact that this unit comes with the same tech as frigates, have the same resource requirement, are both ranged units with the same range... it's too much of a redundancy. We'd just compare the numbers. Movement points are crucially important, but since there's no rough terrain in water, and dropping from 5 to 4 is less consequential than dropping from 3 to 2, the difference in combat strength outweighs the cost and movement, so the correct answer would be the new unit and frigates would no longer be made. Anytime a unit is added which comes at the same time as another unit, serves the same role, and means that making the other unit is simply incorrect, it's a redundancy and not something needed.

Now, I hope you're still reading and haven't simply dismissed this post as a nay-sayer, because I do respect your emphasis of historically accurate options, and I do think you're on to something. But the new unit needs to serve a role in the game. Fortunately, there is a role that needs to be served in the game, an anti-frigate. So consider the following, as it allows you to have a historically accurate new unit, that serves a purpose in the game, while also serving an additional purpose: adding some reason to deviate from the "normal" tech pathing:

Galleon
Technology: metallurgy (maybe steel if metallurgy is to late for countering frigates)
Moves: 2 (maybe just 1)
Melee Strength: 28
Ranged Strength: 34
Range: 3
Production Cost: 185
Resources: iron
Upgrade from: Galleass
Upgrade to: Submarine
Caveats/notes: cannot enter ocean tiles, can only attack naval units or embarked units
 
Galleons served as naval transport unit for land units in earlier games. You still can see them when age of sail rolls around and embark an land unit. Just give Galleons Same stats of a frigate and make it so that when a player upgrades from galeasses, they can choose which ship they prefer, a frigate or galleon.

ShakaKhan, I know you aren't the brighest guy on the science block of Civ series but even that suggestion was bad and Genghis Khan acknowledges it. Do you remember the old Ironclads? They couldn't enter ocean hexs so they was practically useless unless they were so powerful like Turtle Ships of Korea.
 
ShakaKhan, I know you aren't the brighest guy on the science block of Civ series
LOL - "brighest?" suggesting someone of intellectual inferiority and then displaying that quality yourself.

Anyway, probably going to need a moderator here. The comment was dismissive, disrespectful, and against forum rules. I've encountered several posts that I considered questionable, but have responded tactfully and respectfully, and expect a similar level of respect.

Awaiting retraction and formal apology.
 
A counter unit to fight against the frigate is crucial to gameplay, because at the moment the only unit that comes close is just another frigate. Chariots are, theoretically, countered by spears, although spears end up being even more significant as a unit than just countering chariots. Knights counter crossbows, somewhat effectively too, and, probably most importantly to our examination here, subs counter battleships.

I agree with Shaka that the frigate's counter unit should, like every other example above, be unlocked at a different tech than the unit it counters. I just think metallurgy, or even steel, is a less than perfect selection because, while it appears horizontally on around the right place for a proper counter unit, which is to say the same tier or a tier or two before, I think vertically it's very suboptimal.

On most sea maps, the Renaissance will often be entered through astronomy. This makes navigation, often times, the perfect tech to Oxford, or sometimes to simply immediately hard tech and spam frigates for a timing rush. This is another reason frigates are so OP: they come at a perfect time on the tech tree. People rarely tech steel or metallurgy until they're in basically the late industrial unless they're rushing artillery; I suppose a rush-style naval unit might be well placed on the tech tree around steel or metallurgy, but one already exists in navigation, and its counter unit ought to be more naturally placed.

I propose economics, the only tech with any sensical historicity as well as gameplay value. Additionally, the unit should not require a strategic resource; most iron in this era, if playing naval, would be denoted towards frigates themselves. Subs do not require oil. Additionally, I think the unit should be cheaper and slightly weaker, which makes it a more natural counter unit. I agree it should be allowed only to attack naval units, but I think crippling its mobility by making it unable to enter oceans and limiting its movement so severely completely defeats its purpose. Any unit able to counter frigates must be supremely mobile, as this is one of the frigate's key traits.

Galleon
Unlocked at economics.
Movement: 4
Melee strength: 23
Ranged strength: 26
Range: 2
Cost: 160
No resource required
Upgrades to: Submarine
Notes: Cannot attack land units

The unit could also start with the cover promotion, although this might be too big a buff.
 
So have read and considered everyone's responses. I like Shaka's idea of an anti-frigate oriented unit. I've compiled my other thoughts below:

Technology Unlocked At: I like Shaka's and inthesomeday's ideas about having a different tech than Navigation. Steel is too early IMO, but either metallurgy or economics seems good.
Moves: I must agree with inthesomeday on this one, both for gameplay purposes (keeping pace with Frigates) and historical ones, I think that the speed should be either 3 or 4 moves.
Combat Strength: It should have a strength similar to the Frigate. Open to suggestions.
Range: I think it should be 2. If it had range 3, then no land units would be able to return fire until artillery is unlocked an entire era later.
Production Cost: Open to suggestions.
Required Resources: Either 1 iron or none. Open to suggestions.
Upgrades From: Possibly Galeass, but still open to suggestions.
Upgrades To: I like the idea of upgrading to a sub to keep the anti-ranged unit type.
Notes: Possibly give it a penalty when attacking land units, or remove its ability to do so altogether. Possibly give it a bonus when attacking Frigates. I must disagree with Shaka about it not being able to enter ocean tiles; it severely impairs the Galleon's already inferior movement, and it doesn't make much historical sense, either. However, maybe it could move slower in ocean tiles, say 4 moves in coastal tiles and 3 in ocean tiles.

I encourage everyone to continue to provide feedback and ideas. I appreciate it.
 
I just think metallurgy, or even steel, is a less than perfect selection because, while it appears horizontally on around the right place for a proper counter unit, which is to say the same tier or a tier or two before, I think vertically it's very suboptimal.
I chose metallurgy or steel in an (obviously failed) attempt to kill two birds with one stone. Aside from addressing the proposed unit, I'm always looking for ways to make the tech tree have more viable options. As it currently stands, there's a "correct" way of pursing the tech tree, or at least one which has universally applicable positive results. As such, I'm growing weary of education->printing press->scientific theory->radio(oxford)->plastics being the priority techs every... single... game, regardless of victory intentions. If research labs were unlocked in a different path, one which did not include public schools (and then obviosuly removing that building as a prerequisite building), then the tech tree would have multiple options: getting to public schools the fastest would give the most consistent scientific boosts, but then would be tangential to a direct path at Research Labs, and going for research labs earlier would cause a substantial period where no new science buildings were unlocked (the Dark Ages) but would be the quickest way to get to the best science building and would be supplemented by earlier access to Fertilizer and quicker growth... but only when you can support the extra happiness requirements. Additionally, the public school route, which is probably slightly inferior technologically, still has the Oxford-sling to radio and therefore probably quicker to ideology selection.
But admittedly, everything mentioned above has to do with increasing flexibility of the tech tree, which would add variety to the game, but is not relevant to the proposed unit itself. Anyway, that's why I went there.

the unit should not require a strategic resource; most iron in this era, if playing naval, would be denoted towards frigates themselves. Subs do not require oil.
Agree. I went back and forth on this myself and ended up including iron because 1.) if Frigates required iron, there's little logic behind galleons not requiring iron (then again, if logic is our basis, horse archers not requiring horses, war elephants do require horses, subs and destroyers operate without oil, coal, or anything powering them... clearly logic/realism isn't the basis for deciding resource requirements.) and 2.)whenever a new unit is proposed, there's a tendency of the proposer to err on the side of overpowering it than of underpowering it so people will like and use the unit. Keeping a resource requirement on a unit is one way of keeping the proposed unit in check.
However, most counter units in the game are resource free, which tends to favor the underdog player as they are more likely to need to counter the favored player. Pikes, AA's, and mobile SAMs are all units designed to counter another unit, and are all resource free. Lancers are a counter unit that are essentially resource free as they use an otherwise obsolete resource.

but I think crippling its mobility by making it unable to enter oceans and limiting its movement so severely completely defeats its purpose. Any unit able to counter frigates must be supremely mobile, as this is one of the frigate's key traits.
See your point but disagree. Frigates high mobility makes them dangerous because they can reach their destination and fire very quickly, but in terms of defending against frigates, the defender already knows where that destination is going to be: the vicinity of their cities. As such, the defender does not need that many moves. Additionally, in order to make this unit counter frigates but not completely remove their utility in the game, a highly restrictive movement allotment would make the frigate counter only realistically effective around your own cities - you then couldn't bring the "frigate-counter" unit to enemy land to counter their "frigate-counter" unit (i.e. it would be difficult/unrealistic to bring galleons to dispose of their defensive galleons, opening the way for your frigates to do their thing unopposed.) Another solution to frigates unbalanced effectiveness would be for them to need to set up before firing and having that auto-end their turn, because if cannons on land need to set up before firing, why would cannons on a ship not need to? -but again, this has more to do with fixing the frigate problem than evaluating the new unit, so factor that in to the degree of your liking.
 
Galleon probably wouldn't have a place in the game as long as Frigates still exist.

That said, Shaka, your suggestion was pretty bad. 1 or 2 movement on a naval unit? Embarked land units move faster than that. It would be utterly useless at chasing other units and would only be able to move 1 tile before firing (and only if you had 2 movement, not 1). All in all, it's really not a very good idea. Sure, it may be rude to call you out and disrespect you like that, but be an adult here, man. It's just the internet, and this guy knows nothing about you beyond that one post he saw you make. Don't take it so personally.
 
Galleons were in use in previous versions of CIV and were predominantly naval transport ships with decent defence values vs frigates.

Developers of CIV V came up with the glorious concept of getting rid of naval transport ships, according to me (and many other players) a very bad idea.
 
Galleon probably wouldn't have a place in the game as long as Frigates still exist.

That said, Shaka, your suggestion was pretty bad. 1 or 2 movement on a naval unit? Embarked land units move faster than that. It would be utterly useless at chasing other units and would only be able to move 1 tile before firing (and only if you had 2 movement, not 1). All in all, it's really not a very good idea. Sure, it may be rude to call you out and disrespect you like that, but be an adult here, man. It's just the internet, and this guy knows nothing about you beyond that one post he saw you make. Don't take it so personally.

I disagree that there's no place for a counter unit against frigates, every single unit in the game that is as powerful as the frigate has a contemporary counter, at least in theory, and frigates are made even more ridiculous by the fact they lack a counter unit; currently a frigate rush is the best and easiest way to operate militarily and it's completely unbalanced. And it's shown its possible to counter frigate type naval units, as the sub counters the battleship quite well.

And the comment mentioned did directly insult Shaka's intelligence, I think Shaka had every right to react to it, the comment was uncalled for and it also violated several forum rules.
 
That said, Shaka, your suggestion was pretty bad. 1 or 2 movement on a naval unit? Embarked land units move faster than that. It would be utterly useless at chasing other units and would only be able to move 1 tile before firing (and only if you had 2 movement, not 1). All in all, it's really not a very good idea. Sure, it may be rude to call you out and disrespect you like that, but be an adult here, man. It's just the internet, and this guy knows nothing about you beyond that one post he saw you make. Don't take it so personally.
In regards to the unit, what I proposed is different than standard naval units, all of which have 4+moves (except galleasses, but close enough) and there's a reason for that. The reason is that the unit that counters frigates should not be able to fly around the map killing everything and anything in the water - that ability comes later with submarines, and a reward of researching Refrigeration. Again, the purpose is to make a unit that counters frigates, not a unit that counters everything in the water. My contention for the unit described in the OP is that they didn't make a new unit, they made a better frigate effectively nullifying frigates. My problem with the alternative to my proposal is that it's a high movement anti-naval unit, and since all naval units have so many moves and can fire without setting up, you'd just have all your anti-naval ships clear all of the opponents anti-naval ships, and then your frigates are unopposed, there's an evident loophole in it's function. By heavily reducing it's mobility, the unit is prevented from nullifying its own function. It's effectively limited to your own territory, almost like making extra city bombards specifically for frigates.

In regards to my behavior, I felt that I exercised considerable restraint. The guy called me stupid and I restrained myself to laughing it off and only pointing out the objectively erroneous nature to his subjective judgement, which was not called for and against forum rules. I requested moderator intervention because I'm not interested in engaging in flame wars. Such a slanderous statement normally warrants a response with more severity, but I restrained myself because I WAS acting like an adult and I WASN"T taking it too personally. The severity of an offense justifies the severity of it's response. For example, if I were to say that I disagree with your assessment that I was "not being an adult,"and point out that a mature response would show restraint as I did, then you would be justified in considering that fact and offering a retort. However, if I were to say that you were a spineless internet troll, you'd be warranted in responding with more severity.
 
Agree. I went back and forth on this myself and ended up including iron because 1.) if Frigates required iron, there's little logic behind galleons not requiring iron (then again, if logic is our basis, horse archers not requiring horses, war elephants do require horses, subs and destroyers operate without oil, coal, or anything powering them... clearly logic/realism isn't the basis for deciding resource requirements.) and 2.)whenever a new unit is proposed, there's a tendency of the proposer to err on the side of overpowering it than of underpowering it so people will like and use the unit. Keeping a resource requirement on a unit is one way of keeping the proposed unit in check.
However, most counter units in the game are resource free, which tends to favor the underdog player as they are more likely to need to counter the favored player. Pikes, AA's, and mobile SAMs are all units designed to counter another unit, and are all resource free. Lancers are a counter unit that are essentially resource free as they use an otherwise obsolete resource.

I still believe that it should require iron. I don't want this unit to become too OP. Plus, Privateers are already free.

Galleons were in use in previous versions of CIV and were predominantly naval transport ships with decent defense values vs frigates.

Developers of CIV V came up with the glorious concept of getting rid of naval transport ships, according to me (and many other players) a very bad idea.

This might be hard to do due to the one-unit-per tile mechanics of the game. Plus, you would need to add more units from the previous and later eras to form an upgrade path. But if you are willing to prove me wrong or counter my argument, I'm all ears. After all, they were historically used as cargo ships.

In regards to the unit, what I proposed is different than standard naval units, all of which have 4+moves (except galleasses, but close enough) and there's a reason for that. The reason is that the unit that counters frigates should not be able to fly around the map killing everything and anything in the water - that ability comes later with submarines, and a reward of researching Refrigeration. Again, the purpose is to make a unit that counters frigates, not a unit that counters everything in the water. My contention for the unit described in the OP is that they didn't make a new unit, they made a better frigate effectively nullifying frigates. My problem with the alternative to my proposal is that it's a high movement anti-naval unit, and since all naval units have so many moves and can fire without setting up, you'd just have all your anti-naval ships clear all of the opponents anti-naval ships, and then your frigates are unopposed, there's an evident loophole in it's function. By heavily reducing it's mobility, the unit is prevented from nullifying its own function. It's effectively limited to your own territory, almost like making extra city bombards specifically for frigates.

In regards to my behavior, I felt that I exercised considerable restraint. The guy called me stupid and I restrained myself to laughing it off and only pointing out the objectively erroneous nature to his subjective judgement, which was not called for and against forum rules. I requested moderator intervention because I'm not interested in engaging in flame wars. Such a slanderous statement normally warrants a response with more severity, but I restrained myself because I WAS acting like an adult and I WASN"T taking it too personally. The severity of an offense justifies the severity of it's response. For example, if I were to say that I disagree with your assessment that I was "not being an adult,"and point out that a mature response would show restraint as I did, then you would be justified in considering that fact and offering a retort. However, if I were to say that you were a spineless internet troll, you'd be warranted in responding with more severity.

As I have said, I like and support your idea for an anti-frigate unit; it does actually give it a function rather than just my original idea. However, I must respectfully disagree with you about the severe movement restrictions; giving it 1-2 moves and not allowing it to enter deep ocean is, in my opinion, a bit too much of a penalty. The AI is generally not very good at long-distance naval invasions, so players would likely not need, and thus not build, many Galleons (though this is obviously different if we're discussing multiplayer). Not allowing it to enter deep ocean will also prevent it from defending trade routes - another role that this unit could possibly fill. In addition, it also is not historically accurate (not that any of the other units are entirely accurate either). But you make good points, so tell me what you think of these ideas for movement:
a) 3 moves everywhere
b) 2 moves in deep ocean and 4 in coast tiles.

I think that this compromise will make it too slow for efficient and effective long-distance offensives, but it will still have sufficient speed for defending home waters and trade routes (more as a sentry, since it still can't personally escort cargo ships).

Concerning the earlier comment made by Callonia - I don't want this thread to turn into a giant feud, but I will say that that comment was indeed rude and a blatant attack on Shaka, and his response was justified. Please keep your posts insult-free and civilized (no pun intended) or don't post at all.
 
I don't think lower movement than the frigate works at all, because honestly I think the proposed counter unit would serve the purpose the frigate was originally intended for.
I have a feeling the designers originally intended the privateer to be a sort of be all end all coastal dominater that took down cities while frigates may have been intended as their counter; of course, as we can see with, for example, the overall superiority of the horse archer over the battering ram, mobile ranged units are more powerful in wars than melee units. Thereby, the frigate is all around the premiere naval unit, relative to its time, in the entire game, and debatably the best overall unit period.
This is because it has no counter. Apparently they tested the battleship a little better and realized this and put in a counter unit, the submarine; the submarine needs to be reflected in earlier eras to counteract the utterly overpowered nature of the frigate, and the proposed galleon, if it lost its ability to attack land units much like the submarine, is the perfect fit.
But it needs to be mobile to keep up with the frigate.
In turn-based single player gameplay, the frigate loses some of its power, but in a simultaneous gameplay environment like multiplayer the frigate is even more ridiculous. Its mobility is one of its best features, and a counter unit must be equally mobile in order to combat the frigate itself. Otherwise, it's incapable of properly counting the frigate.
 
Maybe just give frigates a huge defense debuff like -75% while defending. Make them glass canons and then the privateer won't need an upgrade to counter them but they're still effective at doing damage if they dont get hit
 
Maybe just give frigates a huge defense debuff like -75% while defending. Make them glass canons and then the privateer won't need an upgrade to counter them but they're still effective at doing damage if they dont get hit

This makes it flat-out worthless for attacking cities though. Not sure how you make the Frigate both interesting and balanced.
 
This might be hard to do due to the one-unit-per tile mechanics of the game. Plus, you would need to add more units from the previous and later eras to form an upgrade path. But if you are willing to prove me wrong or counter my argument, I'm all ears. After all, they were historically used as cargo ships.
The underlying premise of his point was that galleons were used more as transport vessels, and since this game employ the embarkation feature, it defeats the purpose of having transport vessels. However, I think that's kind of nit-picking; noone gave MikeBurnfire, who came up with a great set of mods, any grief for using galleons and you shouldn't have to deal with any grief either. If it's something that improves the game, call it the ice cream truck for all I care!



As I have said, I like and support your idea for an anti-frigate unit; it does actually give it a function rather than just my original idea. However, I must respectfully disagree with you about the severe movement restrictions; giving it 1-2 moves and not allowing it to enter deep ocean is, in my opinion, a bit too much of a penalty. The AI is generally not very good at long-distance naval invasions, so players would likely not need, and thus not build, many Galleons (though this is obviously different if we're discussing multiplayer). Not allowing it to enter deep ocean will also prevent it from defending trade routes - another role that this unit could possibly fill. In addition, it also is not historically accurate (not that any of the other units are entirely accurate either). But you make good points, so tell me what you think of these ideas for movement:
a) 3 moves everywhere
b) 2 moves in deep ocean and 4 in coast tiles.

I think that this compromise will make it too slow for efficient and effective long-distance offensives, but it will still have sufficient speed for defending home waters and trade routes (more as a sentry, since it still can't personally escort cargo ships).

Concerning the earlier comment made by Callonia - I don't want this thread to turn into a giant feud, but I will say that that comment was indeed rude and a blatant attack on Shaka, and his response was justified. Please keep your posts insult-free and civilized (no pun intended) or don't post at all.
It's your baby, whatever you think is best. I like that you incorporated the new role, and if it is something that removes frigate dominance, it's something I'd like to install. Also, it would be necessary for the AI to favor building these units in coastal cities as players rarely have problems with AI navies, it's more that the AI needs to be a little more competent at preventing the player from spanking them so hard. Like I mentioned earlier, frigs seem to be able to accomplish too much too early as they currently are; I feel like I'm cheating when I use them against the AI. Then again, I feel like I'm wasting an opportunity not using them. If there was a counter to them in the game, it would help balance them out a bit. If you think the extremely low movement is too severe, that's fine. I'm only warning of a loophole that exists: if this unit, the galleon, is able to accompany frigates on seige tours, then you'd just use your galleons to take out their galleons, and the frigates are still unopposed - it defeated it's own purpose.

Also, I apologize for the confrontations occurring on your thread and hope that we can stay on topic herein.
 
Galleons could become Long Distance Cargo Vessels. What I mean by this is that in order to bring in resources from cities not on your original continent/island you would need a Galleon (and later on, when Galleons become obsolete, other means of transportation)
To transport colonists and military units to far away (colonial) lands you need Galleons.

Galleons do not sink in Ocean tiles(hexes) unlike their predecessor transport ships, are armed with cannons and capable of, if not sinking, then at least seriously damaging any frigates attempting to sink them or board them (in order to steal some of Galleon's cargo and convert it to gold for their civ)

Bad idea?

PS. Please stop insisting that this whole 'Embarkation" idea introduced in CI V is a good one, when it really isn't.
 
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