no tech trading: cheating?

[oilnwater]

well guys, after playing %70 prince, %30 monarch for a good while now, i'm finding that turning off tech trading is pretty much the only way i'm able to enjoy a typical 8 hour single player game.

if i dont turn TT off, the typical game goes something like this: after 1500AD, the entire AI community (except about 3 backward AIs who are also of a very minor religion or cutoff from the world) decide to all at once exchange almost all of their tech in one way or another and also somehow accelerate their tech to levels unimaginable, despite the fact that i've built any and all prophet, engineer, and science wonders possible in the game long ago, and have all my cities libraried, monastaried, universitied, and observatoried since the 1300s at the latest. first to have free religion and speech, running representation since the BC's (Pryamids), and having max scientist and engineer specialist in all cities.

by the end of a typical game like this, i'm about 5th in score and on average 3 techs behind. meanwhile, the AI community is sharing everything they have and sometimes even a freaking VASSAL state is #1 in tech or at least out-teching me. usually i get spaceshipped out or diplomatically defeated by this time.

so anyway, since turning off TT, i find i'm actually having a chance to win some of these games depending on the opening and my very meager skill at REX. i'm a builder at heart, but this is not the entire reason i find that turning off TT seems to be a necessary thing. the AI community i'm finding here is way, way too collective with tech and they dont care what happens to it as long as me, the human, doesn't benefit. and this is really ****ing me off.

so you high priests of Civilization, do you consider turning off TT cheating? am i seeing this issue through a dirty lens?

 

[Joshua368]

I don't consider it "cheating" per se, but it does signifigantly handicap the AI, I would say to a whole level lower.

The key to tech trading is to know how to leverage it yourself, trading often and with mutliple AIs to compensate for how the deals usually aren't in your favor. That way you can catch the fast global tech rate wave rather than fall behind. And if you do fall behind, it's easy to catch up.

 

[Xellos-_^]

i check the no tech brokering box.

the key is to trading the tech before they research it for cash and with no tech brokering on they can't see/trade it away.

also when you are behind, invade

 

[Roller123]

No tech brokering is best of both worlds.

AI trading with each other is kinda limited by the fact that they all research more or less same techs every time. Other than that you just have to pay attention with whom youre trading with. Ppl like Mana Munsa share like hell f.e.

 

[Bei1052]

I'm thinking that up to a certain point no tech trading would benefit the player, but after emperor it would be a severe handicap as the computer can research much faster than the player can and, without technology trading, there would be no feasible way to catch up. Of course, I only play on Prince (And sometimes monarch), so I don't know how true this is.

 

[lightsedge]

I don't see the problem. If you're trading techs with everyone also, why are you behind?

Check the demographics. Are you close to #1 in production and/or land? If you are, you should be be at least 3 techs AHEAD. If not, that's your problem. You mentioned you don't REX well - you should focus on improving that rather than blaming tech trading, which benefits the human if anything. IMO, the only times NTT helps you is when you're vastly superior in technology (you don't benefit anymore from trading because you have everything already), or you're isolated from the AI.

If you're set on a sticking with a small empire, make it as efficient as possible, by using extreme specialization in your cities, and you should be OK. Check out obsolete's threads on the SSE/WE (settled super specialist, wonder economy) for an idea of what you can do with one city. Otherwise, you should have the most success if you expand, expand, expand (without crashing the economy irrecoverably). You really don't even have to REX - just grow at a sustainable rate while maintaining a tech lead and you'll be fine (yes you will usually have to go to war when there's no more land).

Also note that if the AI is not trading with you, figure out why. Mousing over the tech gives you a clue. If they don't like you enough, look for ways to please them. Many AIs won't trade if they're the only ones that have the tech, but if you don't need the tech right away, research something else so you have something to trade when they are willing. And always be on the look out for Mansa and befriend him, because he will always trade his techs! There are some good diplomacy and leader guides around I'm sure. Check them out.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm thinking that up to a certain point no tech trading would benefit the player, but after emperor it would be a severe handicap as the computer can research much faster than the player can and, without technology trading, there would be no feasible way to catch up. Of course, I only play on Prince (And sometimes monarch), so I don't know how true this is.

It opens a very, very large window for classical and medieval warfare, though.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I'm thinking that up to a certain point no tech trading would benefit the player, but after emperor it would be a severe handicap as the computer can research much faster than the player can and, without technology trading, there would be no feasible way to catch up. Of course, I only play on Prince (And sometimes monarch), so I don't know how true this is.

High level AI in fact favors AI to AI trades even more. Turning techtrading off doesn't make catching up any harder.

What no tech trading does is to severely limit diplomacy for the human player. Technologies allow easy diplo bonuses (+4 fair trade, +2 share advances, multiple +1 help/tribute) AND are the cheapest way to bribe AIs into wars, out of hostile religions, into trade embargoes, etc.

 

[oilnwater]

i think i see the problem clearly now after reading general threads on prince and monarch. the problem is that i never, ever want to have to deal tech with AIs. and never, ever simply give a tech just because an AI asked or demanded it. i guess that's part of the difficulty of monarch in the first place. the AI will have more tech, at least in one particular branch, anyway. so i'll have to actually deal with these AI and tech mostly on unfavorable terms whether i want to or not. this is probably the biggest reason i'm losing every monarch game because i always resented trading anything with an AI other than meaningless agreements, because i was used to warlord level where i had the comfort of not needing them.

 

[Mesodius]

Go with no tech brokering. A decent compromise.

 

[feralminded]

I cannot imagine myself even having a chance of winning immortal without tech trading. Emperor I might win through brute force warfare but its the only way to survive higher levels. I think you need to bite the bullet and learn how to effectively trade with the AI.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Tech brokering works best for me. It allows me to put a stop to this tech whoring that often happens after a trade (which is most frustrating). At higher levels, the inherent advantages that the AI gets probably makes it more difficult to keep up. At least there, you can research tech that they don't often research and make a trade with others to try to keep up. Without that you probably fall further and further behind barring some superb starting spot.

 

[Turquoiside]

No Tech Brokeing, like the wise people of me have said, is the perfect comprimise. Even on early levels, it is more of a balncer for YOU and the A.I. is hardly a problem

 

[Xellos-_^]

these days i also do advance starts and that allow you to have at least some parity in the techs and city development at the start of the game.

i don't know how many people here know this but on higher levels besides getting a discount on tech research AI also get to start game with multi settlers, workers, scouts, archers and 4 techs instead of 2. While you still start with just 1 settler, 1 warrior and usual 2 tech.

 

[SirDrake]

oilnwater - i'm finding that turning off tech trading is pretty much the only way i'm able to enjoy a typical 8 hour single player game....

so you high priests of Civilization, do you consider turning off TT cheating? am i seeing this issue through a dirty lens?


Tech trading is a bad game mechanic for one simple reason: The rules (for trading with AI) are secret.

If I were learning to play chess, and sometimes the rook took the pawn, while other times the rook mysteriously died, I would pitch the board off to the side and call it quits. I don't mind trial-and-error to learn better technique, but it's a miserable way to have to learn the rules.

So my first 20 or so games of Civilization IV, I played with tech trading turned off.



That being said...

'No Tech Trading' is generally to your advantage if the difficulty level puts victory in doubt. But if you're playing for score & speed, you can get better numbers with Tech Trading on (moreso with a Space Race or Cultural victory than a Domination victory, I think). In fact, if the stars align themselves favorably, a higher difficulty level can actually produce a faster finish (say, Monarch vs Noble) because the AIs will have more techs to trade (and more wonders for your to plunder).

The HoF Mod, which I'm playing with now, does not allow me to check 'No Tech Trading' or even 'No Tech Brokering' (very irritating). However, it lets me select my opponents.

Therefore, strategy rule #1 is: Select Mansa Musa as an AI rival.

Strategy rule #2: Select Mansa Musa as an AI rival.

The AI attitudes are in the file Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml

The key attributes, as near as I can tell, are:

iNoTechTradeThreshold
iTechTradeKnownPercent

The second tag, iTechTradeKnownPercent, apparently has something to do with how many other Civs have already learned a given tech. Most AIs prefer to trade techs that lots of other Civs already have, and avoid trading techs that nobody else has. Mansa Musa has an iTechTradeKnownPercent=0, so we'll assume that lower numbers are good for you. Peter, Asoka, Catherine, & Gandhi also have low numbers here.

The first tag, iNoTechTradeThreshold, means... er... I don't really know, except to say that Mansa's attribute is 20 and it's the highest. There are 5 AIs with a 15: Catherine, Elizabeth, Gandhi, Peter, and FDR.

If anybody knows anything more specific, I'd love to learn. Meanwhile, my advice is to include Gandhi & the Russians among your rivals. I've also heard that Isabella is an absolute sweetheart as long as you share her religion.


Cheers,
Jason

 

[Joshua368]

Tech trading is a bad game mechanic for one simple reason: The rules (for trading with AI) are secret.

If I were learning to play chess, and sometimes the rook took the pawn, while other times the rook mysteriously died, I would pitch the board off to the side and call it quits. I don't mind trial-and-error to learn better technique, but it's a miserable way to have to learn the rules.

Perhaps your analogy would be the case if the rook mysteriously died by a bishop appearing on its square, and you had no idea how it got there because you didn't know the rules that a bishop could move diagonally as far as it wants uninterrupted.

There may not be a set of instructions built into the game, but tech trading is relatively easy and self-explanatory. The AI gives you specific cues as to why it won't trade a tech, these are mostly easy to pick up and learn and shouldn't intervere with your tech trading abilities. Thanks to the "What would make this deal work?" there's little trial and error in finding out what the AI wants.

First of all, if a tech is available, the AI will usually want something of slightly higher value in beakers. Also techs are considered worth more if you are the only civ that has it, i.e. a monopoly. Sometimes gold can help offset an unballanced deal, otherwise you might have to accept getting the short end of the stick. How good a deal you get depends on the AI's attitude and personality, so a little trial and error, but thanks to the "what would make this deal work" option it just takes a second to find out.

Meanwhile techs can be redded out for multiple reasons, which the AI will share:

- "We don't like you enough." Obviously AIs won't trade if they don't like you. How much they have to like you varies from personality to personality but it doesn't take long to learn.

- "We don't want to trade away this technology just yet." They have a monopoly on the tech, making it extra valuable and they don't want to give up their advantage. Plus you'd probably trade it away to everyone else. Once enough other known civs know the tech as well, this goes away. Like the guy above said, Mansa Musa is the only civ with a rating of 0 here, meaning he requires 0 other civs to know the tech. (the only AI to trade monopolies)

- "We have our reasons." If a civilization is building a world wonder, they won't trade away the tech it takes to build it until its done. I think this is the message they give for this situation, but I'm not positive. It's pretty obvious though, just look and see if the tech has any unfinished wonders attached.

- "We fear you are becoming too advanced." (aka WFYABTA) This is the only painful one that I would say is confusing and misleading, however it's very unlikely that you'll run into it on the lower levels. Basically if you trade too many techs around, the AI will notice you're being greedy and won't want to share anymore, it has no bearing on how advanced you actually are. The number of techs this is is the amount SirDrake noticed times a difficulty multiplyer, Deity being x1.0. So Mansa Musa being set to 20 means he'll trade that many techs on deity before hitting the limit, and so on. The cap increases on lower difficulties.

Every turn there is a small chance that an AI will "forget" about a past trade, lowering the WFYABTA total and possibly getting him open to trading again.

- "We would like to win the game, thank you." The AI is not eager to share space race techs.


Another important thing to note is that if an AI is gotten to "Friendly", and you have no vassals to throw that off, it will ignore things like monopolies and WFYABTA completely and be much more willing to trade.

 

[mechaerik]

They actually say "We Would Like to Win the Game, Thank You"?

I generally try not to let the AI get to far ahead, and i usually shoot for early wars.

 

[Joshua368]

They actually say "We Would Like to Win the Game, Thank You"?

I generally try not to let the AI get to far ahead, and i usually shoot for early wars.

Yep, or something very similar.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The analogy with chess would be even better if the bishop could hop over any number of units in the way, but only on every 3rd turn. That's what the AI mechanics are kind of like. Ineffective nonsense that can screw you if you're not aware of it but possibly be abused to hell if you do.

By the way, NTT hampers the AI fiercely. I remember shortly after I'd just starting doing well on emperor. Someone hosted a LHC game where no tech brokering was on. That was my first emperor game where I was smacking longbows with infantry. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

So what about immortal and deity? I haven't tried them with NTT, but I can't imagine it making the AI tech any better relative to the human. Hell, AIs that choose erratic paths would probably turn into easy, gaping targets.

 

[feralminded]

Yeah this is true. I still would fear a Mansa or a Ghandi who have their eyes on the ball when it comes to tech though. Some AI's know and execute the "right" tech paths. You could beat them by smashing the AI's who don't though but odds are they would also be beating down those AI's ... only faster and harder. I don't know ... I'd have to play it to see.