Nomadic Era- Alternate start idea.

[Galgus]

This would be an optional change to the game geared towards players who would like time to explore before settling their first city.

The Nomadic era would take take place while Agriculture is being researched, and last for roughly 3 turns on standard length and 10 turns on Marathon.


Researching Agriculture unlocks the Nomad's ability to found a capitol, the option to Declare War, and the default ability to produce farms.


Instead of a Settler, players in the Nomadic era start with a Nomad, which has the gold, culture, and science output of a newly founded capitol.

Social Policies still cannot be adopted until the civlization's Capitol is founded, but culture gains from the Nomad store up for when it is.

The Nomad's Science research automatically works to unlock Agriculture, but can also store up for progress in the next technology researched.


Unlike the Settler, the Nomad is a combat unit with strength 5 and the Medic promotion- though it cannot attack.

(The player's only other unit at the time is their starting Warrior: the Medic promotion exists to speed up recovery from a fight with Barbarians.)


Barbarians cannot produce Galleys in the Nomadic era, mostly to make exploring the seas as Polynesia less risky.


The Nomad produces the output of a starting capitol to give players more of an option to wait a brief time to found their city after the Nomadic era ends.

(They may want extra time to move into a newly discovered sweet spot.)

However, they still miss out on some population growth, production, cultural border expansion, and the security of founding the capitol.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Nice idea! I don't know if developers would actually include this in CiVI, though.This really reflects how agriculture allowed for cities to be possible.
________________________________
Stupid truth always resisting simplicity.
-John Green

 

[Galgus]

Thanks, and I agree that it is unlikely to be seen in CiVI.

I just think that some players would enjoy a little more choice on where to establish their empire.

Since I mostly play Marathon mode, I'm a bit uncertain on how long the Nomadic era should last at each game pace- the current numbers may need to be changed.

 

[Kurtbob]

I too find this a great idea. A little exploration before setting up a capital would be very fun. Some players may not like the sub-par capital location that may be inherent in your nomad system, which is not a problem with the system as it is now where your settler is placed in a reasonably good location at the get go. I would love it though.

I would suggest a longer nomad period as well. Perhaps defeated barbarians join your side prior to the discovery of Agriculture? Kind of a strategic element to throw into the beginning of the game.

How would you figure in City-states and natural wonders?

 

[Galgus]

I'm not sure how long the era should be, honestly.

As a marathon mode player, I am probably used to longer periods of unit movement relative to civilization advancement than most; but I'd say about 10 turns minimum and 20 turns maximum in marathon mode sounds right.


Some trade-off for stopping to fight Barbarians instead of covering more ground exploring could be interesting, but I'm not sure on having them join your side.

Part of why I'm against it is that wars and early direct advantages for future wars like free units doesn't sound very fun to be forced into before even getting a city up.

Perhaps captured Barbarian encampments could give a bit of research towards Agriculture in the era when captured, creating a trade-off of either hunting Barbarians to set up faster or covering more ground exploring for a good spot.


City States and Natural Wonders would probably function normally in the era: running into an useful map resource is one of the joys and purposes of exploring.


The game wouldn't neccessarily have to start players in a bad spot for a city in the Nomadic era: my intent was more that players would have several options of valid starting areas than a hunt for a single good spot.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

How would you figure in City-states and natural wonders?

If you were first to meet a city-state then you would probably receive 15 gold rather then 30 gold since you wouldn't exactly be a "great empire". You could not declare war and since the Nomadic era is meant to last no more than ten turns you could not make gold gifts. If you complete a quest for a city-state then you would get resources and influence like normal, although luxuries and strategic resources would be irrelevant until you found a city because you could not produce units and do not require happiness. If you find a natural wonder than you'll probably settle near it, but if you're crazy and don't found a city right away you wouldn't get the tile yield or happiness but you would get the happiness when you found a city.
________________________________
Stupid truth always resisting simplicity.
-John Green

 

[Kurtbob]

If you were first to meet a city-state then you would probably receive 15 gold rather then 30 gold since you wouldn't exactly be a "great empire". You could not declare war and since the Nomadic era is meant to last no more than ten turns you could not make gold gifts. If you complete a quest for a city-state then you would get resources and influence like normal, although luxuries and strategic resources would be irrelevant until you found a city because you could not produce units and do not require happiness. If you find a natural wonder than you'll probably settle near it, but if you're crazy and don't found a city right away you wouldn't get the tile yield or happiness but you would get the happiness when you found a city.

Ah, so city-states would already be founded (they would start with a settler, not a nomad). Kinda odd, but its probably the only way to go about it.

Question: would maps begin with more civs at the beginning to offset the chance of civs dying out immediately to barbarians? I honestly wonder if barbs should even be roaming around now. Seems pointless to have opposing civs die out before even building a city.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

I also think it's kind of pointless to add extra Civs just so they can die in a few turns. Maybe spawn rate can be limited in the nomadic era so it is less likely to die to barbs?
________________________________
Stupid truth always resisting simplicity.
-John Green

 

[Galgus]

@ Kurtbob:

The Nomad's Medic status should make clearing the Barbarians easier, but I would just give the Nomad more defensive combat strength if them dying to barbarians proved to be an issue.

Also, Barbarian Galleys would not spawn in this era so that Polynesian coastal explorers wouldn't have to worry about their instant-kill to a Nomad on water.

Barbarians getting ships ahead of anyone else has always seemed strange to me anyway.

 

[OmniPotent42]

What is the definition of "barbarian"? Because it seems like the difference between nomads and barbarians is basically the same thing: a unit that doesn't belong to a civilization, which by definition requires a permanent residence, or in other words a city.

I would just make it so barbarians don't spawn in the nomadic era and have to wait until ancient era. This would solve a lot of the problems proposed.

Also, I think this era should last longer. Maybe 15 turns on standard, 20 on epic and 30 on marathon? Also do you have a starting date in mind, like maybe 7500 Bc?

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

What is the definition of "barbarian"? Because it seems like the difference between nomads and barbarians is basically the same thing: a unit that doesn't belong to a civilization, which by definition requires a permanent residence, or in other words a city.

I would just make it so barbarians don't spawn in the nomadic era and have to wait until ancient era. This would solve a lot of the problems proposed.

Also, I think this era should last longer. Maybe 15 turns on standard, 20 on epic and 30 on marathon? Also do you have a starting date in mind, like maybe 7500 Bc?

I don't like the real-life definition of "barbarian" because it is often applied to groups because they do not have a written language to have records and are nomadic, and instead memorize records and history when these groups actually had distinct societies.The original Greek word "barbarian" was extremely vague, and referred to all people who did not speak Greek as a barbarian because all other languages to the Greeks sounded like "bar bar bar".

I agree that just getting rid of barbs altogether would solve a lot of problems. I also think ten or fifteen turns on standard turns is fair.
________________________________
Stupid truth always resisting simplicity.
-John Green

 

[awesome]

this could definitely work as a mod (or scenario, since they're close enough to the same thing for the purposes of this discussion). 15-20 turns sounds fair, though the nomad should probably have a good amount of movement since this era would probably last about 5 turns for quick games and the point is finding a better area to settle. of course, the fact that starting positions are usually pretty good anyway kind of negates this, especially if you assume that a nomadic era already happened for thousands of years before you decided to start a civilization.

 

[Galgus]

I can agree on good movement rate for the Nomad.

 

[ThisNameIsTooLo]

Your idea and mine have some overlap. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=475508

Here's some changes I would make to the Nomadic Era.

• All players' Nomad units start in a small region populated with barbarian camps, each at a randomly selected camp.
• The Nomad unit has no gold or culture output. It is also as fast as a Scout in rough terrain.
• The Nomadic Era takes 10 turns on Normal Speed. The Nomad normally generates 2 Science per turn (20 is needed for Agriculture).

Beyond that, a few changes to the Ancient Era.

• Nomads found City-States, not Civilizations.
• You need to grow your City-State to evolve it into a Civilization.
• You will have no way of knowing which AI City-States will evolve into competing Civilizations beforehand.

And several things the player can tweak in the game setup:

• The total number of AI Nomads.
• The number of AI Nomads which can found Civilizations.
• The number of starting Barbarian Camps.
• The largeness of the Barbarian Camp region.
• Whether you want all Nomads to spawn simultaneously (on Turn 0), or gradually (from turns 0 to N).
• If the above option is set to the latter, which turn you'd like your Nomad to spawn on (if you feel like giving the AI a head start).

 

[Galgus]

The purpose of the Nomad outputting gold and culture is to lessen the punishment for not settling immediately after the Nomadic era ends.

Anyway, your idea sounds pretty neat.

 

[ThisNameIsTooLo]

The purpose of the Nomad outputting gold and culture is to lessen the punishment for not settling immediately after the Nomadic era ends.

I suppose it's okay if the Nomad can generate culture for Social Policies, but letting it generate gold as well is going too soft on the player.

Anyway, your idea sounds pretty neat.

Thanks.

 

[Rooftrellen]

I don't like the real-life definition of "barbarian" because it is often applied to groups because they do not have a written language to have records and are nomadic, and instead memorize records and history when these groups actually had distinct societies.The original Greek word "barbarian" was extremely vague, and referred to all people who did not speak Greek as a barbarian because all other languages to the Greeks sounded like "bar bar bar".

I agree that just getting rid of barbs altogether would solve a lot of problems. I also think ten or fifteen turns on standard turns is fair.
________________________________
Stupid truth always resisting simplicity.
-John Green

Barbarian, originally, had very little meaning. Greece and Rome used it to refer to anyone else (meaning that Romans were considered barbarians by the Greeks) at all. The word actually refers to beards, though it wasn't a requirement that a barbarian had a beard, you can clearly see it on the CiV brutes.

It has developed over time (likely due to Rome's expansion and extending Roman citizenship to people living in the conquered lands) to mean someone without civilization. They may or may not have a written language or be nomadic.

That being said, I have always felt that barbarians in CiV represented minor civilizations which the major powers would see as inferior for one reason or another. If you don't expand enough, you'll see that the barbarians can actually get quite advanced units (I've seen up to riflemen myself).

The difference between any of the major civs and out of control barbarians is sometimes razor thin anyway.

For that reason, I'd say barbarians in a nomadic stage of the game probably shouldn't exist. Until your people develop a cultural superiority complex, they wouldn't see other peoples as barbarians. It would be logical to think that they may meet other groups, but they may well regard them as equals until they become "better" in some way, so I'd say no barbs.

My question would be about the start date of such a system. One could time it so that at 4000 BC, you get agriculture, and the game would go on as normal, but with such a big change (and one that sounds quite nice) to the early game, I almost wonder if it would be worth it to push back the dates so that you would see Agriculture 1-2 thousand years earlier and perhaps extend the early game a bit more, since it's a bit rushed. That would also maybe give anyone that wants to move a bit more for their first city time do to so without feeling too bad about it, since they would have more space to catch up.

 

[Halps]

I hate the start of the game where you can only see your immediate vision area! If you're building a city, wouldn't you have an idea of the surrounding countryside? I almost always end up scouting around then re-loading to place my city and actually start playing.

Nomad for a few turns may be a nice addition!

 

[Galgus]

Thats basically the idea- more choice and information on where to found a city, less left up to chance.

 

[ThisNameIsTooLo]

Another nice addition would be to rearrange the ancient Tech Tree so that you have three possible starting technologies: Agriculture, Fishing, and Hunting. Your Nomad's Research could go towards one of those three. Researching any one of them enables city-building.

Agriculture unlocks the Farm improvement.
Fishing unlocks the Work Boat unit, which you can use for early exploration.
Hunting allows the Camp improvement, and the Scout unit.

Fishing leads to Sailing.
Agriculture leads to Pottery and Animal Husbandry.
Hunting leads to Animal Husbandry, Archery, and Mining.

Animal Husbandry needs Agriculture and Hunting.
Sailing needs Fishing and Pottery.