not so great wonders wonders

Le Petit Prince

Communist Comrade
Joined
Aug 27, 2001
Messages
224
Location
Montreal, Canada
it seems to me that there is some wonders I never built... and wonders people find SO great but I dont...I never built Colossus, Hanging garden, King richards...,liberty statue, Eiffel tower and sun tzu...and Adam's company...It only pays for what? the temples?

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C'est le temps que tu as perdu pour ta rose qui fait ta rose si importante.
 
Regarding Adam's, you can check in the rules.txt file what improvements cost 1 gold/turn. Apart from temples, Marketplaces comes to mind.

Hanging gardens can do wonders for your happiness in early years, tho' it's not too high a priority in my eyes.
 
I mostly agree about colossus and hanging gardens, but occasionally they can be of help. Add the oracle the list of useless wonders, and great library if you have any kind of tech production (unless its like a 6 player game). Eiffel tower is the biggest waste in the whole game, and I won't build it if its the only wonder available. King Richard's is a waste of time, esp in 2x2x.

Adam Smith's is nice but i wouldn't rush to build it or anything.

I disagree BIG about sun tzu's and stat of lib though. Stat of lib is a HUGE advantage, and not just cuz u can switch to govs you dont have the tech for. You can switch to demo "We Love" days and build up and then make a quick switch to fundy. You can virtually ignore diplomacy cuz at worst you have 1 turn anarchy. Stat of lib is one of my 3 fav wonders before the modern era (also Leo's and Mike's).

MUST HAVES: Lighthouse, Great Wall, Leo's, Mike's, Stat of Lib, Magellan's

GOOD WONDERS: Sun Tzu's, JS Bachs, Darwin's

WORTH IT IF YOU HAVE THE TIME: Adam Smith's, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Colossus, Shakespeare's, Isaac Newton's, Copernicus', Marco Polo's

NOT WORTH IT: Great Library, Eiffel Tower, Oracle, King Richard's, and whatever else i'm forgetting
 
Series, I agree with you on most of your wonder evaluations - except...
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..Adam Smith's, especially if your civ is really huge, then it can save you a serious amount of cash each turn.

..King Richard's. Build it in your best production city, and afterwards you can pump out wonders in half the time it usually takes.
 
And by the way...
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..pyramids! You don't like the Pyramids too much either?
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I think it's one of the best wonders, definately on a very high position in my top ten wonder list.

How do you manage to increase your population without it?
 
Now try to ignore Hanging Gardens in deity. Youäll get in your masses.

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There are only really 2 really awful wonders:
Eiffel Tower-no use whatsoever
Oracle-expires way too early with normal rules

not much use:
UN-game well in hand if not over
CfC-same
Sufferage-same
Manhattan-same-fun though
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For higher levels,The Gardens and Collosus are probably the 2 most powerful wonders in the game.The Gardens is a cornerstone of expansion and Collosus is the cornerstone of Science.If you must have certain wonders,these are the 2.After that you will have your pick.

For me,Pyramids are a complete waste as I will either grow with "we love days" or I will not care about growth and go conquering.In this case I only need 1 or 2 granaries(if any).Early growth on deity must be managed and there are higher priorities.I'm not too upset when I capture it though.

Likewise,King Richards is an iffy wonder.Pollution is too much trouble in a large city and Leo's comes about the same time and takes precedence.When I do build it,the city usually can't go beyond size 8 until after Industrialization due to pollution.

The Lighthouse is iffy in solo play.It is very good in multiplay though.

Adam Smith's pays maintenance for everything that costs 1 gold upkeep.If you have lots of temples,markets,libraries,harbors,coastal forts etc..it is desired.
 
In response to juize: i only play multiplayer, which is usually on king, so I don't worry about it.

Golden lion: King Richard's is mostly useless because a) I can almost get a city up to 20-25 shields without any bonuses, and any more is just too much pollution, and b) I build 95% of my wonders with caravans, not with leaving a city working on it for 50 turns. I would say I just about NEVER build richard's.
As for pyramids, again, city expansion can overcome not having them by spending 5-10 turns in "we love the king." If youre an expanding republic, pyramids often makes you grow TOO fast and you have happiness problems. I will build pyramids if I have a steady stream of caravans and nothing better to build. However, I usually beat people to what i consider to be the best wonders, leaving them less to build and thus most decent opponents usually beat me to them.

Remember in MP you won't get to every wonder, so you have to leave your opponents some crumbs or they'll end up saving the shields they were going to use and end up somehow beating you to a better wonder.

What I'm saying is that Pyramids is LOW on my list of priorities, and I'm willing to bet that I can still out-population at least 90% of people who beat me to it by whatever reasonable year you pick.

I just saw Smash's post, and it seems he pretty much agrees with me and vice versa. I didn't get into the modern wonders, but obviously SETI and Hoover kick *ss, UN is pretty much useless (u should be able to get embassies), and Cure for Cancer and Women's Suffrage are or are not useful depending on the type of game at that point. If I'm playing fundy vs. a demo, I will sometimes build them just to keep my demo opponent from them.

[This message has been edited by Series1999 (edited August 31, 2001).]
 
What's wrong with the Great library? That's usually the first one i build if not the pyramids. It's pretty useful at start but once you start pulling away from the rest of the civs it begins to become worthless, but it's good while it lasts!
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Hippo's Big Book of Useless Wonders

1. Oracle. Whoop-ee-doo. Obsolete five minutes later.

2. Great Library. Okay for beginners, but nothing else.

3. Eiffel Tower. If I wanted to be popular, I wouldn't have massacred 90% of the world's population by the time this became available.

4. SETI. Unless you're going for a massive score (future T's) you really don't need to discover much more by the time computers roll around.

5. Cure For Cancer. One extra happy citizen? Big deal.

Hippo's Big Book of Objections

Whoever says Adam Smiths sucks has obviously spent too much time running up and down the lighthouse stairs
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Marketplaces, Temples, Libraries, Harbours, Granaries, Courthouses and Coastal Fortresses are all free with the trading company.

The Hanging Gardens are useful as a tool of early happiness, but can be shoved aside in favour of martial law and more important ones such as Collossus and the Pyramids.
 
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT COLOR="Blue">A colossus is usually one of the first wonders I build. It gives you that early game kick.</FONT c></FONT f>

<FONT face="Century Gothic"><FONT COLOR="Red">Pyramids are a MUST. It lasts you the rest of the game and YOU NEVER HAVE TO BUILD A GRANARY. I say that's well worth it.</FONT c></FONT f>
 
Well, Le Petit Prince, you should know better! King Richard's and Adam Smith's come very handy; they give you a city with very high productions (wonder city, or military city) and can save you a lot of money. The only wonder I rarely build is Shakespeare's Theatre.

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I love Adam Smith's. It is a "get at all costs" for me.

I usually play a peacefull game in which I try to build my empire and this wonder helps pay for a LOT of my improvements. If I'm strugling to stay in the black... this wonder can easily put me over the top by chopping my expenses a great deal.
 
Some wonders listed as worthless, that I disagree with:

King Richard's--this actually has some good use. Like someone said, it helps you build other wonders fast, while using those caravans as they SHOULD be used--to establish trade routes! Build Shakespeare's in the same city, and you can have a good-sized offense in a mid-game democracy....

Shakespeare's--ESSENTIAL in a democracy; since no one is ever unhappy there, you can build or support most of your navy there so they can patrol the oceans without discontent; later tanks, howies, and other units that will often be outside cities attacking; bombers, helicopters, cruise missiles, nukes, those units that cause unhappiness no matter WHERE they are.... It's the essential loophole to the unit-unhappiness rule in democracy.... Build that, then a barracks (and later a port facility and airport) and go to town....

Pyramids--if anything, helps those new cities in late game get to size 3 quickly to start making babies! I can do without it, but things are easier throughout the game with it....

Adam Smith's--read that list of improvements above, multiply by number of cities you plan to have with all of these, and cha-ching! BIG savings every turn--enough to cut your taxes by at LEAST 10 percentage points, for higher luxuries (happiness) or science....

Suffrage--okay, I'm a late-game war guy. But this gem makes democracy easy in terms of controlling unit-unhappiness, especially if you didn't build Shake's.... With this, I don't have to rely 90% on the city with Shake's to support units. Coupled with Mike's Chapel, I can support four (or more) "unhappy" units from each city without even seeing red faces....

SETI--If you get computers early (and I often do in my putting-off of flight (to keep my colossus functioning)), this can make you sweep all the remaining techs fairly quickly, and go to space quickly. By the time I build it, the shield expense is absolutely NO object to me either....

Wonders that I agree are useless:

Eiffel Tower--the AI hates me no matter what, and that hate leads to irrational attacks that put them in the doghouse....

Oracle--too bad it doesn't last longer. Although I suppose in CivIII it may have a good cultural value to carry over after expiry, in CivII it always expires at the wrong time (giving you a bunch of disorder everywhere).

Manhattan--I like nuke-free games, and try to enforce this ban....

[This message has been edited by allan (edited September 01, 2001).]
 
Well, it depends what difficulty u play..:
In harder levels the most important are:
-Hanging Gardens
-Leo's Workshop
-Colossus
-Adam Smiths somethingthaticantremember
-SunTzus War Academy
In easier levels the most important are:
-Pyramids
-Leo's WS
-SunTzys WA
-Womens Suff-Rage.
 
I don't build Sun Tzu's all that often either. Maybe I don't understand completely what it does: Does it only award vet status after battle (that was my impression), or does it make ALL units veteran (meaning you don't have to build barracks at all until the mobile warfare era)? If the former, then you win vet status after one or two skirmishes anyway, without it....
 
Question about Sun Tzu, it will make your units veteran, but you still can't heal your units right?
 
I think that Leo's is a must. Also, I think that Great Library is good so others don't get techs quicker. Also you can research the essentials, ans still get the smaller stuff that you don't really need as much. I agree with everyone else though about oracle. It becomes obsolete way to quick. Pyramids are alo very important. Never becomes obsolete and no more graneries to build. Very valuable if ya ask me. Other good ones: Adam Smith's and Sun Tzu's.
 
Actually, the Great Libarary is only good if you play *above* your level, but the GL in a chieftain game.....well, it's good for the points, nothing else.

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