OCC Preliminary Thoughts (Mainly Virtues)

[Sprenk]

Caveats: I'm only an Immortal level player, and much too fond of turtling. We don't know very much about buildings and key wonders yet. Beta builds change. And I'm not even sure which victory conditions are viable with only one city!

Looking over the current Virtue tree with Aeson's cool viewer, I realized there were a number of virtues (2-3 each in Prosperity, Knowledge and Industry column) which are totally useless if you're going to stick to one city. But, to my delight, it's quite possible to manoeuver through the Virtue trees and avoid all the worthless ones, still reaching key bonuses in a timely manner:

1st Goal--10 Tier 1 virtues for the +10 buff to growth, production and energy in our capital (because, duh, all we have is a capital). The exact order is just a guess, subject to conditions on the ground.

P: Frugality
P: Workforce Initiative (free worker)
I: Labor Logistics
K: Foresight
K: Social Mores
K: Lab Apprenticeship (we get the 1st wide kicker here--a free virtue)
K: Creative Class
P: Helping Hands
I: Commodization
I: Scaleable Infrastructure (+10% growth/production/energy in capital)

2nd Goal--Reaching the first depth bonuses in our 3 virtue columns. This is possible with just 5 Tier 2 virtues.

K: Cohesive Values (+10% culture bonus)
P: Pioneer Spirit
P: Gift Economy (+10% growth bonus)
I: Entrepreneurial Spacecraft
I: Investment (+10% energy bonus)

3rd Goal--Now we need just 3 more tier 2 virtues to get our tier two width bonus, which is 1 free virtue and 1 covert agent. We also set ourselves up to take nothing but tier 3 virtues in the next step. (Note that if health is more of a concern than energy, P: Mind over Matter can be subbed in for K: Applied Aesthetics, though that will delay a knowledge depth bonus later.)

K: Applied Aesthetics
K: Community Medicine
I2: Alternative Markets (1 free virtue, 1 covert agent)

4th Goal--Finally, we take 10 tier 3 virtues for the big +10% to everything (growth, production, science, culture, energy) width bonus. Along the way we also snag the next Knowledge and Industry depth bonuses.

K: Metaresearch Methods
K: Technoartisans
K: Information Warfare (+10% science bonus)
I: Social Investment
I: Civic Duty
I: Magnasanti
I: Superior Engineering (+10% production bonus)
P: Nature's Bounty
P: Hands Never Idle
P: Eudaimonia (and we have the 10% for everything super-bonus!)

That's 28 relevant virtues to pick up all the key width and depth bonuses.

Seeding

Faction--I'm guessing the PAU (+10% food when healthy--get tall quicker!) or maybe Franco-Iberia (free techs for 10 virtues--great chance to reach deep down the science web) would be best, but most of the others are viable--except the Kavithans. Their bonus is useless to us. Silly Kavithans.

Colonists--Probably Artists to get the culture ticking quickly, but certainly Refugees (+2 food) is logical, too. Or Engineers (+2 production) because we have to build so much in one city? But with only one city, the colonist's "in every city" bonus isn't that big a deal for us, right? It just helps us get started.

Spacecraft--Retrograde Thrusters, if you think it worth taking at all, would seem best suited for a OCC game (the best city placement is crucial, and we get a bit of a start on early scouting to boot). But I can see arguments for the others as well. The Coastal Survey, for example, will help us explore more efficiently.

Cargo--Hydroponics (extra citizen), surely, since we want to grow as tall as we can as quickly as we can. We don't need the Worker since we're getting a free one early on in our virtue build.

Any thoughts?

 

[Zet]

I would take a different approach. An OCC victory is going to rely on key wonders, just like in Civ V.

The Gene Vault looks like a key wonder. It gives +4 food, +1 culture, +10% growth.

The faction that can get the Gene Vault sooner than the rest is the Slavic Fed. In the long run, other factions might be the better choice though. We'll see.

Colonists: refugees.

Spacecraft: retrograde thrusters is clearly the best choice.

Cargo: I think they could all be good choices. Worker seems like a solid choice. If goody huts are common, a soldier could be better though, especially with a staggered start, and even more so with Slavic Fed. The clinic could give a slight edge in research early on just to make the sprint towards the Gene Vault. If getting a trade route up early is a good move, then even Laboratory could be viable. It's too early to decide.

Regarding virtues, I mostly agree with your plan. We definitely want the second tier 1 synergy bonus (+10% growth/production/energy in the capital) at some point. I think Industry and Knowledge are more suited for OOC than Prosperity, from which we only want the opener.

Since we want to get wonders, I think opening with Industry is the right thing to do.

If the virtue tree allows only forward movement, then Knowledge becomes less attractive for OOC though. Some of its tier 2 virtues are useless or weak for OOC, but we would have to take some of them anyway just to get to tier 3. Hopefully Firaxis makes some adjustments to make this portion of the tree a bit more flexible.

 

[Sprenk]

The Gene Vault looks like a key wonder. It gives +4 food, +1 culture, +10% growth.

The faction that can get the Gene Vault sooner than the rest is the Slavic Fed. In the long run, other factions might be the better choice though. We'll see.

The Gene Vault is indeed a nice-looking wonder for OCC. I'm assuming you're saying the Slavic Federation has the edge on getting it because of their free tech upon launching their 1st satellite? (They can 1st learn Genetics, then take the leaf tech Genetic Mapping with their first launch bonus).

I guess we'll have to learn more, not only about what wonders are available and what they do, but also about what wonders different factions prioritize. For example, in BNW, The Great Library is nice for OCC but you can almost never build it in time on the top difficulty levels, so it's a mistake to even try. The Hanging Gardens (which is a lot like The Gene Vault) is sometimes obtainable, while a wonder like The Oracle is a safe bet. We'll have to see whether The Gene Vault is a great OCC opening gambit or a red herring.

 

[Sprenk]

Regarding virtues, I mostly agree with your plan. We definitely want the second tier 1 synergy bonus (+10% growth/production/energy in the capital) at some point. I think Industry and Knowledge are more suited for OOC than Prosperity, from which we only want the opener.

I guess it's a choice--minimize Prosperity and have to take some useless Industry and Knowledge virtues to make get the tier width bonuses, or dip into Prosperity judiciously. But Prosperity isn't necessarily a waste for OCC because it has some desirable growth and health bonuses and virtues.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think an importand difference in CivV and BE for OCC is the health/happiness
In V monarchy + 2-3 luxury goods meant happiness was almost never an issue in OCC

In BE, to you are limited to a pop of ~5-6 until you tale care of health
The Best way to do that early is the +7 in Prosperity (its better than knowledge/industry before you have 42 pop/35 buildings)...and getting the free worker boosts and tile growth boosts is worth while too.
Long term the best is -25% unhappiness (in Prosperity) as well.

Also, some of Industry ('rome' ability, domestic trade routes) and Knowledge (smaller '# of cities' costs for virtues and techs) are useless for OCCs.

 

[Zet]

I'm assuming you're saying the Slavic Federation has the edge on getting it because of their free tech upon launching their 1st satellite? (They can 1st learn Genetics, then take the leaf tech Genetic Mapping with their first launch bonus).

Yes. It looks like the satellite launch can be delayed, so this will work

I think an importand difference in CivV and BE for OCC is the health/happiness
In V monarchy + 2-3 luxury goods meant happiness was almost never an issue in OCC

In BE, to you are limited to a pop of ~5-6 until you tale care of health
The Best way to do that early is the +7 in Prosperity (its better than knowledge/industry before you have 42 pop/35 buildings)...and getting the free worker boosts and tile growth boosts is worth while too.
Long term the best is -25% unhappiness (in Prosperity) as well.

Good point. I may have overlooked health in my plans. How does health work by the way, I'm assuming it's global?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes. It looks like the satellite launch can be delayed, so this will work



Good point. I may have overlooked health in my plans. How does health work by the way, I'm assuming it's global?

Things we know

1. It's global
2. Health comes from Difficulty level, Buildings, Virtues... no evidence of 'health resources'..except for the Prosperity policy
3. Unhealth comes from cities (-4) not outposts, population(-0.8 on demo difficulty level), AND some improvements
4. If you are unhealthy science and culture are reduced (not growth, production, energy)
5. If you are Very unhealthy growth and production are reduced

6. If you are healthy your outposts become cities faster (+20% if you are not negative)

 

[Manannan]

I've more or less had the same thoughts on an OCC as op, but with a couple small differences. While I agree with going PAU (foooooooood), artists (tall strikes me as really culture dependent early to get important virtues ASAP, and free health is always good), and retrograde thrusters, I can't help but wonder if going with a free clinic over an extra pop early wouldn't be the best thing to do. Extra science, and extra health while freeing up hammers to build other things might be worth it over the extra pop early. Also might be worth it to beeline a few more +health virtues earlier, but that's hard to say.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I've more or less had the same thoughts on an OCC as op, but with a couple small differences. While I agree with going PAU (foooooooood), artists (tall strikes me as really culture dependent early to get important virtues ASAP, and free health is always good), and retrograde thrusters, I can't help but wonder if going with a free clinic over an extra pop early wouldn't be the best thing to do. Extra science, and extra health while freeing up hammers to build other things might be worth it over the extra pop early. Also might be worth it to beeline a few more +health virtues earlier, but that's hard to say.

Some of them probably depend on each other...
ie if You don't take artists, then a free worker is better (because you won't get the virtue one as soon) and you can then get refugees for more pop->more tech

With Artists though.... I think the clinic might be good...Build Relic and Worker, beeline Virtues for the free Worker, then Farm as much as you can while researching Genetics and building explorers.


I think the only things for certain are
Yes-Retrograde Thrusters
No-Pioneering, Kavithan Protectorate

Scientists may be needed since we haven't seen any "National college" and there might not be any... you might need Scientists to get to some of the key techs in time to stay ahead in tech.

 

[Manannan]

Well, as far as science goes I could see grabbing the virtue in Knowledge that gives you science from expeditions, and if you're getting the free worker from Prosperity anyway grabbing the bonus expedition modules for your explorers to give you nice early science boosties. In the early game that might be enough to keep you afloat until your population gets big enough to take advantage of Knowledge's other virtues. Either way, I still think Artists or Aristocrats make more sense than Scientists, Refugees, or Engineers solely based on getting the extra health which may very well be at a premium early.

 

[DarkestOnion]

Your plans are missing any defense against Aliens or Hostile AI's. Are you hoping that they will leave your Only City alone? I fear OCC might not work too well with those Worms in the game

 

[ggmoyang]

Your plans are missing any defense against Aliens or Hostile AI's. Are you hoping that they will leave your Only City alone? I fear OCC might not work too well with those Worms in the game

Purity level 1 bonus + Ultrasonic fence will be enough against aliens. For AI, same diplomatic manupulation can be used as it was in ciV.

 

[ggmoyang]

Tradition was so good for OCC in ciV - now we don't have that.

The opener gave really fast border pop and allowed faster finishing of the tree.
Monarchy made happiness as non-issue and gave huge amount of gold.
Finisher granted really fast growth.
Now these things are gone or weakened and separated in differnent virtue trees - all things gonna be a problem.

I'll probably pick Franco-Iberia - several free tech will give interesting slingshot opportunity.
Seeding settings would be Refugees(fast growth)/Retrograde(seems best option for OCC)/Machinery(to make fast growth worthwhile).

Virtue:
Frugality - Foresight - Social Mores(gives no bonus till 4 pop) - Laboratory Apprenticeship - Labor Logistics - Commoditization(a free virtue here)
- Investment - Alternative Markets.

I picked Alternative Markets to solve energy problem. +6 or 12 per trade route will be enough to pay the building maintenance, if there are enough stations. Then:

Social Investment - Civic Duty (Will give nice hammer bonus. and I can put a point in Magnasanti if needed.) - Cohesive Values - Community Medicine - Technoartisans.

From here, I have no good idea to do. Remaining choices doesn't look appealing. Maybe I could use Adaptive Sciences and Martial Meditation to unlock Affinity-based victory faster.

As for the techs, I will go Ecology and build Ultrasonic fence to get 'trade units are not attacked by aliens' bonus, then Pioneering to build some trade units.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Basically in Prosperity and Knowledge, right side is wide, left side is tall (with exceptions)
For Industry its the opposite

Also, Trade routes are the friend of the Wide player you get 2 trade routes Per Trade Depot building (ie per city) (unlike in CivV where it was based on tech)
There may be national/great wonders that give One city extra trade routes, but we haven't seen any yet.

 

[Sprenk]

For those of you taking the Clinic seed, not the extra citizen, I wonder if that's a good trade-off. In CiV, you've got extra science for more citizens--if it's the same in BE, is a clinic the best bet?

It's easy to quantify the value of a Clinic--it's 60 production or the equivilent amount of energy. Judging the average value of starting with an extra citizen is harder, because it's going to be contingent on the hexes available for it to work. But if you're getting, say, an extra production and science by having it. . . .

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well what I can see from the 3 economic virtue trees that is Uniquely useful for Wide v. OCC
Bolded seem really useful

PROSPERITY
Tier1
Wide: all useful (starter less so)
OCC: Starter, worker, faster worker (fast outpost+Settler Useless on OCC)

Tier2
Wide: +Health, +Staring Pop, +Tiles (more local than foreign trade routes*, and your explorers can probably refill easily)
OCC: +Health, +Tiles,+Explorer, Foreign Trade routes* (+Starting pop is Useless, your explorers won't easily make it back to refill)

*Not sure on this, stations might be better for OCC, and an overabundance of trade routes in wide might need foreign trade routes (stations are limited to 1 per civ)

Tier3
Wide: -Unhealth, +Resource Health, +Production,
OCC: -Unhealth, +Resource Health, +Specialists,

Not sure about Terrascape

Depth 1= OCC
Depth 2= Wide
Depth 3 = OCC

KNOWLEDGE
Tier 1
Wide: none particularly useful (culture/pop might help expansion)
OCC: Culture/pop, Science/pop, Culture/health? (later on you might have more health than you can grow into)

Tier 2
Wide: -City tech cost, - city virtue cost, energy for culture? (lots of buildings cost lots of energy?)
OCC: Health per pop (-city cost is Useless for OCC) health per pop is poor conversion rate..but they will have a lot of pop..and that earns combining bonuses with -25% unhealthy

Tier3
Wide: Nothing Particularly useful
OCC: +culture from Wonders (you will probably have a lot of them, and that flat bonus helps your virtues more

Depth...non particularly good for OCC/Wide

INDUSTRY
Tier 1
Wide: +building, +rome bonus, +resource energy (wonders and energy from capital are meh)
OCC: +Building, +wonders, Energy from Capital (+rome bonus is Useless for OCC)

Tier 2
Wide: +Trade Health, +Internal trade routes (only 1 trade route/station/civ.. so that won't be as useful..partially depends on any limit to # of foreign trade routes)
OCC: +Station Trade Energy (internal trade routes strictly useless on OCC, and stations are probably better than foreign trade)

Tier 3
Wide: +health/building (you will have a lot of buildings)
OCC: +hammers/pop, +health/buildings (you will have a lot of pop and your one city will have many buildings)

Synergy
None particularly useful



Wide bonuses
Tier 1
10 Virtues: OCC

Tier 3
10 Virtues: Wide

The rest seem about the same for both

 

[OldEarthRelic]

Wouldn't Siege Worms make OCC better? Losing any city/outpost is going to be catastrophic - OCC makes the city easier to defend.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Wouldn't Siege Worms make OCC better? Losing any city/outpost is going to be catastrophic - OCC makes the city easier to defend.

If you have lots of cities, losing one is not catastrophic... +wild siege worms are stopped by a 1st Ring tech building.

 

[OldEarthRelic]

Faction: I think PanAsian worker bonus would be less useful than when going wide. Still useful, but less useful. But maybe the wonder bonus is worth more, if you're planning to build a lot of them?

Faction:I think ARC may be good at higher levels - steal BPT and benefit from lower tech costs. PAUs +10%growth seems weak to me.

KrikkenTwo, how do we defend outposts from SiegeWorms. That's a general Question, not against your point per se.

General Point: Given how spread out the Affinity bonuses are on the tech web, I think Science may be the main driver even for Affinity Victories. I assume you're not going OCC domination (though it is theoretically possible).

 

[ggmoyang]

KrikkenTwo, how do we defend outposts from SiegeWorms. That's a general Question, not against your point per se.

Explorer with Purity level 1