One Immortal Leap...

[Wandering Took]

Greetings CFC,

I'm a longtime lurker of the forums and have really enjoyed reading through a lot of the great discussions on here. Recently while scrolling through my (mostly un-played ) Steam library I decided to reinstall Civ 4 to scratch that particular itch once again. I used to play mostly on Monarch/Emperor so it's time to see if I can step on those Immortal toes, hopefully with some help.

Without further ado, here are the map settings:

Spoiler Map Settings :

All the standard settings. I have played mostly on Pangea maps in the past, so I decided to roll a Continents map this time since this will add an entirely different aspect to the game.

And our glorious leader:

Spoiler Leader :

Hopefully I can live up to Alex's moniker!

Philosophical is probably the trait I've used the least before, so I don't really know how to exploit it to it's full potential. Hopefully that will change with this game. Not much to say about the Aggressive trait - I think just about anything else might be more beneficial.

The starting techs definitely leave something to be desired, especially for a non-coastal start. The UU is pretty bland, and I don't think I'm very likely to face a chariot rush from the AI. I'm also probably never going to be building the UB, since hopefully I'll have other means to manage my happiness.

Overall this is a leader I'd have trouble playing to his strengths, so this should be a good learning experience.

And finally, the start:

Spoiler Start: :

Corn and forests seem to be the name of the game here. The tile 2E of the settler appears to not have a forest so I'm thinking of moving the scout 1NE to see if it has a resource on it. Regardless, I don't think there will be a better spot for me to go, so SIP?

The initial save file is attached for anyone interested in taking a look at it. My goal is to stick to short turn sets so I can actually respond to any advice I may get. I'm thinking somewhere between 10 to 15 turns?

Looking forward to playing through this, and thanks ahead of time.

 

[elitetroops]

Absolutely agree with BiC on scouting. On t0 you should first evaluate where you would settle based on what is seen at the start, then evaluate which scouting move is most likely to reveal something that could change your mind. A potential resource 2E of settler has no influence on your settling decision, since you already decided to SIP based on what you have.

 

[Gumbolt]

Downside with Alex is lack of mining. His starting techs are horrible. If you settle in all the forest you will need BW asap. Agriculture first.

Fog gazing. To east I can see 2 grassland tiles mixed in the forest. This could mean a resource. I would of checked these out first.

I would likely settle in place. I also like the river start for a cottage based capital.

 

[Wandering Took]

That was definitely a better move. Not sure how I missed such an obvious one .

Spoiler Scout and Settle: :

The scout revealed no visible resources to the east. I suppose with all of these forests around, we might have a strategic resource located on one of them. So SIP it is.

Oh boy, that's a lot of food. Obviously Agriculture will be the first pick, followed by Mining into BW to start chopping out these forests.

I guess the question now becomes is this start a bit too much for a forum game?

 

[Pedro78]

So many new (Alexander) games on the forums wow!

Not much to add, Ag-Mining-BW here. De-select research for the first 5 turns (you might already know this). That's quite a start, though. Will get really interesting once you reach BW with all the chopping options.

Btw welcome to CFC

 

[Gumbolt]

Wow nice start. Agriculture, mining and BW looks good here.

 

[Wandering Took]

I had the chance play through the first few turns:

Spoiler To turn 15: :

T5: We spot the borders of our crotchety neighbor to the north.

Looks like Churchill is quite close, and although he's not particularly aggressive himself, his Protective trait would be painful to deal with in the early game.

T9: Our scout has revealed most of the land between myself and Churchill.

There is some very good land to be had here. I'm guessing Churchill will likely grab the corn and gold spot for his #2 city. If by some dumb chance he does not, would forward settling him so aggressively cause too many problems early on? Alternatively, the elephants look like a very solid #2 spot for us.

T15: Our worker completes and starts farming the first corn tile.

Our scout spots another corn tile to the east as he heals from a wolf attack. Mining will be in next turn followed by BW. The worker will have plenty to do putting up the three farms until that comes in.

I'll go ahead and stop here, until I hear some of your guys' thoughts. How aggressively should I try to forward settle Churchill? Would going into a settler at two pop be quicker than waiting to grow to three?

Save attached if anyone would like to take a look.

 

[Major Tom]

Hi and welcome to cfc.
I would not be too greedy with agressive settling along Churchills borders. There is plenty to have anyway settling closer to Athen for compact empire. Perhaps on the Jumbos (+1 hammer). Can share food tiles etc later on.

Notice you have more espionage on Winston so there are probably someone north of him.

I am not able to calculate, at a quick glance, what is faster but 2 pop settlerbuild might be fastest, but 1 extra warrior for 3pop and fogbusting/barbdefence is appealing.

 

[Fippy]

Growing size 4 and whipping the settler usually works best with super food like double wet corn.

 

[Wandering Took]

I put a few more turn into the game:

Spoiler To turn 31 :

T16: As Major Tom noted, there was indeed another AI on this continent.

Monty's scout came from the east, with some grim news for his slaves.

Also, Churchill grabbed the spot that I thought he would with his second city.

We'll blame the early border tension on England's imperialistic tendencies.

T19: The worker completes the first corn improvement.

He should have just enough turns to finish the other two farms before BW comes in.

T20: Apparently there is indeed no shortage of corn on this map.

This one is surrounded by jungle, but I should be able to easily grab it later in the game since I don't think I have anyone to the immediate south.

T28: I decided to follow Fippy's advice and grow to size 4 before starting the settler.

The completed warrior will head north to fogbust the fish/stone spot.

T31: BW completes, and like I suspected, one of the grassland tiles to the west did have copper on it.

I went ahead and revolted into Slavery to whip out this settler. I'm still leaning toward settling on the elephants to the northeast. The city will be able to immediately share the corn and will eventually pick up the gold.

The other thing to decide is the next tech choice. I have enough food to forgo AH for now, so I'm thinking Wheel into Pottery?

This seems like the logical place to stop for now, so hopefully you guys can offer some advice on what the best route forward would be.

 

[Wandering Took]

Oh no ! Don't whip the first settler. Especially if all your food tiles are improved (pigs will not be).
Maybe you can whip the second settler, after city 2 claims some shared food tile (Eastern corn seems fit for sharing).

You'll have a very hard time claiming the northern corn because of Churchill's capital's culture.
Maybe you can claim control over the gold but I wouldn't think about the corn. That said, there are enough strong tiles in sight that, maybe, you don't even need that northern gold.
Specifically :
- City 2 sharing some of the capital's corn/pigs would let it develop extremely fast. Also ensure you can keep Athens' happiness under control. Long term, it would be best if it could have its own food source (2E1N of the corn is an option ; maybe it's got food). A developped capital never has enough food ;
- Not necessarily for city 3 but maybe 4-6 : if you could go as far as claiming the far east corn and also set up a blocker nearby the Stone, you'd have a tremendous territory secured.

Beyond city 2, settling priorities should still remain open.

Edit :
You can whip the first settler, of course, but it delays the next one.
If it also makes you stop working an improved corn, I think it's a pity.
Maybe start the first settler at size 3 (not all corns will be improved), complete it, grow to size 4, whip the second settler.

Building enough warriors for barb defence could be difficult with this all-food capital.

I didn't see your post until after I finish writing up my last one. Getting a settler at size 3 and then whipping another one at size 4 would get me to three cities faster, but would also leave me with just a single worker until after that. Right now I'll probably put the whip overflow and a chop into a second worker to help with all the chops before growing back up and getting my next settler out. I should only loose one turn of working one of the corn tiles. My first chop will clear the forest 1S of the pigs, allowing the settler to found on the elephants the turn after it is done.

 

[Gumbolt]

Lots of forest, 4 food resources and English holding gold site might suggest early rush. You could chop a lot of phalanx here. Pretty solid unit. Aggressive trait too.

Stone site, forest and philosophical trait suggests mids and abuse rep scientists. Warrior 1 1NE?

Cities.
I like 1SE of the ivory. It will eventually grab 1 gold. Settling on the ivory might of been nice. York makes this less attractive.
1Se of fish too with stone and fish in inner ring.
Jungle cities need IW and that requires some work here.

Maybe a city sharing 2 corn/copper with capital SW of capital. Worth getting a scout out there. Could be a nice early scientist city? You could then bulb maths with a GS? Helps towards phants?

Aztecs are warmongers. The English and Aztecs are worst enemies here. Suggesting they might be near eachother? Don't want to leave yourself only target for the Aztecs.

 

[Wandering Took]

And a few more turns:

Spoiler To turn 43 :

T33: Our warrior had a very close call with an archer that had spawned to the north, surviving with 0.1 health.

I'll hold off whipping one more turn to maximize overflow into the worker.

T35: The overflow from the settler combined with the chop allow us to complete the worker in one turn.

I'll found a city on the elephants next turn. I'm also going for an early Myst to get the gold online sooner rather than later. Getting those two extra happiness online sooner rather than later will allow me to put all this food to good use.

T36: Sparta is founded.

There is a barbarian archer next to our borders that I could not see prior to settling, but he should stay out for now.

T41: Sparta 1-pop whipped the monument.

Athens will grow back to size 4 next turn and whip out another settler that the workers have chopped into as I grew. The goal is to grab the fish and stone spot next, effectively blocking Churchill from the south.

T43: Our settler completes with 36 overflow.

Should I put that into another worker or go for something else instead?

Here is what the land looks like to the north:

And to the south:

Unfortunately our scout revealed no more seafood to the south.

• Where should I look to expand after the third city?
• When should I grab Masonry? At this point no wonders have been built, so I could get some fail-gold out of it.

 

[Gumbolt]

What to do here.

The double corn copper looks less attractive now. Purely because the ivory city gobbles up 2 of the food resources already.
What tiles would your capital run if the new city took corn? There are 9 tiles you could cottage. (Long term.)
You have 6 tiles you could mine. (Long term.)
You have 4 additional grassland you could farm. Running a 3f farm when the capital has 4 food resources?

Mids? How long will it take to build this? What you lack is hammers. Doing anything before stone is a mistake? Especially chops. You need TW and masonry too.
So 13 tiles you could chop in your borders. 13x40=520. With enough workers you could pre chop some forest. Albeit you lose worker movement turns.
36 hammers into a settler could give you a 52H whip at size 4.
You have 4 base hammers if you use a mine. So 8 a turn with stone. 14HPT if you use a forest hill. Maybe 20HPT with a second mine. 14x10=140+56=196 So 300 or so from chops over 10 or so turns.

Realistically it will take many turns to reach masonry. Your teching TW right now. So 5+8 turns? 13T Assuming 100% science. So maybe 15-16T?

You will quickly face some worker decisions here. Roads to new cities and copper are fine. If you keep chopping you need something to chop into. More workers? You still can't cottage or build the quarry.

My gut would be to pre chop forest here. Get into the habit of setting a worker to chop and cancelling it's action on same turn.So basically leave a forest so when you return to it it's a 1T chop. You can do this while you wait for the wheel. You can also put turns into a mine for the forest hill on way to copper. 2t chop 2 turn mine and then road. Pending on your strategy. If you want mids first plan workers around that. Saving forest now seems right.

If your planning mids be thinking about getting 2 workers ready for quarry. It's a long wait for mids. Albeit with prechops and roads you could cut down 9 forest in 3 turns if you road. I would also want a third worker. 9x1mp. 9x3(Chop time). 9x2(roads). 45 worker turns. Plus 8 for quarry and more for roads and time to reach stone. So at least 18-20 turns for mids. 36H into a worker? 3 turn build.

Option 2
Phalanx attack? 8 turns for border pop. 5 turns for wheel. Pre chops for tiles towards copper. 3rd worker too to speed up army. 10-12 phalanx. Maybe a barracks first too. Road to sparta. I suspect most units would come from your capital.

London looks sweet. You could probably chop mids from there anyway. 1-2 axes to help stop barbs entering borders could be useful. 1-2 warriors here would help. Sparta at size 2 could run FH for 3 turn warrior. Your capital will want quick growth here to S6 after a worker. It should probably grow on barracks. It could build a warrior with 2x corn and mine. You can pre road the copper. Then have 3 workers ready to mine copper and chop forest.

Cottages/granary is a long way off here. Getting pottery next and then masonry could be an option if you go war mode. London is 9 tiles away from Athens.

 

[Fippy]

Imo the most common goal here would be Elepults,
iam certainly known for liking Axes but it's too late already for that, especially against a protective guy like Church.

Overflow hammers into stoniehenge are not bad at this point, even without stone connected, if you want to keep teching fast(er).

 

[Wandering Took]

I think Fippy is correct that it's a little too lat for a phalanx attack this point in the game, and although the Mids would be nice they would really delay any attack on Churchill. If the plan is to go for Elepults, how many cities should I aim to have settled before then? Should I go straight to Pottery and start dropping the cottages to up my research rate?

 

[Gumbolt]

Mix and match. I actually played on from your save to 100bc so can't really give too much advice now that might be spoiler.

In terms of what I can say non spoiler.

I would be aiming to settle at least 2 more cities. You need to think where your research is going to come from. You will want maths/construction/masonry/HBR and archery. Thats nearly 1200 beakers. You can run scientists. This will get you maths. Maybe some cottages around your capital?

The copper double corn site can be a filler for later. The corn east of Sparta looks okay. You only really need 4-5 cities for a phant rush. Grab the corn site first!

I would aim for a mix of cottages and farms here pending on the city. Cottages around stone and capital can be useful here. Other cities can run scientists.

 

[Gumbolt]

Still playing?

 

[Gumbolt]

I played this out to a domination win from your last save. 1590ad. Continents really slow me down. Will save back details till you have finished.

 

[intutama]

Tried to shoehorn a HA rush in there, didn't go well
You can cram a bunch of cities in there, problem is if Churchill DoW... Maybe elepult ?
Boy I suck at this game