Ongoing Discussion of Columbia Tragedy

All of that feel-good stuff regarding space exploration and the absence of national interest is horse dung.

The whole point of spending all the money, effort, and the lives lost is not to save the human race. It is to save and protect our own people, and to establish commerce for our own national corporate interests. NASA works for the USA. The N in NASA stands for National.

NASA is not doing this for humanity. They do this so we (Americans) can develop and master satellite and planetary defense and commerce before anyone else. And they should be doing this for America and America only. We pay for it. NASA fluctuates at .8% - 5% of our national budget. It's a lot of cash that we are spending as an investment in our future.

Quite different from the astronauts point of view, I do believe that. But as we see, they are expendable in our not-so-golden intentions reagarding space exploration/colonization.

Wait till the Iraqis send up a shuttle to the "international" space station.

American Admiral: "I'm sorry, there is no where to dock Komrade Al Fatah, I guess you will have to keep circling the station until you run out of fuel and crash and burn back to Earth. That or go on an old fashioned Civ III galley suicide mission to explore two more squares of deep space, praying to discover a worm hole to seek shelter in before you run out of moves and lose your galley in the void of blackness. Look at the bright side. Your world map will be worth 2 gold more.
 
I deference to the moderator advisory previously, I'll refrain from venting my spleen.

But I will indulge in correcting your misapprehension about the role of NASA. The military exploitation of space is the responsibility of the Air Force. NASA does not deal with military or intelligence matters, beyond the occasional launch of a satellite. In fact, shuttles don't DO satellite launches anymore. They are tasked with building and maintaining the space station and the Hubble telescope.
 
I am not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch, but I find it implausible that NASA scientific discoveries will not at least lead to the development of weapons in space, and a huge early lead for American corporations looking to set up shop beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
 
Maybe ombadu, but this isn't the thread to discuss this. Start another one if you want. :)
 
Very interesting early post, Ombadu, welcome to CFC. I hope that people (okay, not people, but moderators) will see the difference between your comments and some of what was troubling before. It seems that you are looking to seriously discuss space exploration, and as De Lorimier has pointed out, there are threads where that is more in line, but your post has got me thinking a thing or two slightly closer to the topic at hand...

Does anyone know what this particular shuttle mission was? What I know is 1) the results of the experiments were obtained before the shuttle re-entered the atmosphere and 2)the Israeli astronaut was a "payload specialist".

One of the truly unhappy consequences of the Challenger disaster was that from that point forward the Space shuttle program was not geared towards the public but towards a series of completely 'secret' missions/experiments. I have seen experts on tv say these experiments were fruitless and banal, and you raise the spectre that they might on the other hand be related to defense.

Still, I don't believe that our partnership with Europe/Russia/East Asia/Israel in space could be either wholly unproductive or remotely sinister. I think the ways in which the other posters are talking about this give our lost heroes the credit they deserve.
 
OK, if we want to keep this thread all about honoring the astronauts, I can dig that.

One more thing before I go, though, so you folks don't misinterpret my opinion. I don't believe there is anything sinister in setting up national/international defenses in space.

We all agree that these astronauts died nobly for an incredibly important cause.

I just wanted to point out that the cause is not "for the greater good of mankind." That is not why we spend all this money. The money will trickle back to us once 3M, etc. establish some mining operations or stellar advertising, or something of the sort. The establishment of American commerce and defense in space is the incredibly important cause that I believe the astronauts died for. You may not think that is so important, but I do.

All mankind will not benefit from this. It was one giant leap for America, not mankind. Hence the stars and stripes on the moon. "All mankind" did not benefit from the discovery of the New World. "All mankind" will not benefit from the exploration and colonization of deep oceans or space. Quite the contrary. Some of man's kind will suffer as a result of America or Germany or China colonizing Mars first.
 
Originally posted by nixon
Gee, it's actually very spooky; none of the people on the picturea are no more. They just disappeared and no one will probably ever find them again.
Click to expand...

They have actually found body parts. After a DNA test we will know who those parts belong to, then we can clone them. And they will never be really dead. ;)
 
Body parts?I think when those "parts landed ob earth those should be fully vaporised.
Imagine you walk on the street and suddenly an arm of the crew of those 7 brave austronauts falls right before your feet.
Must be horrifying....:vomit:
 
@switch - NASA is part of the defense network. While they are "supposed" to be a civilian branch, the military does have direct control and input into many things that NASA does. Over the course of the shuttle launches there have been at least one launch ever year or two that is strictly military and nothing is released on it except right before it leaves and the day it comes down. They won't even show pictures or list crew. These launches don't even show up in the "official" history of the shuttle. Even on non-military flights there have been activities during which the cameras aboard were shut off for security reasons. Including several space walks. The military even pays a good size chunk for the shuttle out of its budget. Of course all of the commanders, pilots, and co-pilots are all presently members of the US Armed Forces. NASA was never, and still is not today an "pure" agency. One of the biggest early complaints about the restrictions on design of the payload bay was the size and lifting capability that the military wanted.

@sultan - The listed experiments were all commercial and scientific in nature. The fact that the US has allowed foriegn payload specialists is nothing new. In the past we have had everyone form the British to the Russians go up, even our friends the French. After all it is good PR, and those countries are paying for a chunk of the space station. It promotes good will and an interest in continuing the program not only here, but throughout the world. I think this is one of the best things they have done in the program myself. It allows the program to be more than the US doing what it wants in space and gives it a more co-operative spirit. It probably make a nice bone it throw to an ally as well. The fact that 300 school children in India were up to watch the shuttle land says something for its effectiveness. Unfortunately, the accident occurred while one of the more controversial countries was getting their turn. I don't think it dimenishes the desire to make it a more global outreach, and don't beleive their was anything hidden in the fact that he was up there.

@all - While you may wish to think that the US is the only country that benefits from the program, you are wrong. For instance, the software design model that was developed for the critical software in the shuttle and other system, is now the one (at least in word, if not deed) that is used to develop critical real time code in systems throughout the world. The methods and skills developed within the space program have given us everything from better composites for safer aircraft and cars, to miniturization of electronics that go into life saving medical implant devices. While these benefits usually are seen first here in the US and her allies, they make themselves felt throughout the world within a short period of time.

The debt we owe. especially to those who havve given their lives in these efforts is something we can not repay through mere words. The world stands on their shoulders and reaches for a new day.
 
Originally posted by philippe
Body parts?I think when those "parts landed ob earth those should be fully vaporised.
Imagine you walk on the street and suddenly an arm of the crew of those 7 brave austronauts falls right before your feet.
Must be horrifying....
Click to expand...
A gentleman, just down the way from us, was the one that found the torso and put up the wooden cross you see on the news. He was up there visiting his cabin when it occured. He said the torso was from the neck down to the one knee. He also said he had a pretty good idea of whom the torso was, but would say no more out of respect for the families. They have been using TDC bloodhounds in the area that the majority of the crew cabin fell, and most of the remains have been found to attampt to get as much of the remains recovered as quickly as possible.
It is amazing to see just how fragile the human body is and at the sime time how well at least parts of it can survive great forces.
 
Originally posted by philippe
Body parts?I think when those "parts landed ob earth those should be fully vaporised.
Imagine you walk on the street and suddenly an arm of the crew of those 7 brave austronauts falls right before your feet.
Must be horrifying....:vomit:
Click to expand...

Yeah, they've found helmets, spacesuits, clothes, skulls, everything. Its quite sad.

I've also heard that some wreckage went through the roof of a school into a kindergarden classroom. Thank God it was Saturday. :(
 
Yep and theres that part that a house burned down by a part of the columbia and several poeple are sick becuase of sheer stupidity.If you say to someone:"dont touch it" you can be sure they will touch it...
Eidt spelling mistake:bruning down is burning down...:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by philippe
Yep and theres that part that a house bruned down by a part of the columbia and several poeple are sick becuase of sheer stupidity.If you say to someone:"dont touch it" you can be sure they will touch it...
Click to expand...
Not nescessarily because of stupidity, but a lot of them from pure greed. Thinking of how much they will get from the sale on eBay or someplace else. Now that is sick.
 
Originally posted by philippe
several poeple are sick becuase of sheer stupidity.If you say to someone:"dont touch it" you can be sure they will touch it...
Click to expand...

What did they catch from a piece of wreckage? I'm confused...
 
Parts of the wreckage are highly toxic. The propellants used for the maneuvering rockets, as well as the main engines, are deadly poisonous. Even minute traces will make an unprotected person ill.
 
Originally posted by Switch625
Parts of the wreckage are highly toxic. The propellants used for the maneuvering rockets, as well as the main engines, are deadly poisonous. Even minute traces will make an unprotected person ill.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. I forgot about that...
 
Originally posted by cgannon64


What did they catch from a piece of wreckage? I'm confused...
Click to expand...

The fuel used in the shuttle's jets is very toxic. Also, the fluids used in other systems, such as coolants. They are also warning of radioactivity as well. I would imagine that there was at least one cesium beam clock on board for comms if nothing else. I don't think they use atomics for anything else, but they have used some in experiments if a recall, just don't know if there were any on this trip, don't think so.
 
Oh greedy...
Now on eBay!
parts of austronauts of Columbia!
If you buy now you get alse a piece of the rocket...
:vomit: :vomit: :vomit:
 
@Meldor= good post, and good point about the allied nations' astronauts, only correction I have is that the school children in India weren't watching because NASA put an Indian astronaut in there, but because the USA allowed an Indian woman to immigrate here and she became an astronaut.
 
Time magazine was very downbeat about that nasa said don't touch anything because there are toxic fumes. "as if any toxic fumes would have survived" and that the more probable cause was so the investigation would be as complete as possible; they can map and track the derbis and such.

Ahh yes, threadjacking and bickering and flaming and stuff.
 
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