Open letter to Firaxis

[spincrus]

AND one last thing: Yes, the Civ tag and the Sid Meier name are almost guarantees that the games carrying those names will be good. They ARE indeed very proud of this fact and are using it, but not by lowering or slightly improving quality, but trying to maintain a high standard.

You can't keep a name if you don't improve yourself. It's hard to become a name, but it's as hard to keep it.

They haven't learned from Civ3? Are you KIDDING?

 

[Psyringe]

I sometimes wonder how many people claim that they speak for some public opinion, when the opinion they present is drastically different from the results of every single poll on these forums.

The vast majority of peple can play the game either perfectly or with no more than minor bugs. An extremely huge majority of people who can play the game say that they also like the game. So what's really the point of this "open letter"-camouflaged complain?

The game doesn't work for you. That's sad. I understand your frustration. What I don't understand is that you feel the urge to scream blue murder not only for yourself, but even for the whole community, instead of just doing something else while waiting for Firaxis to fix your problem, which they will certainly do, no matter whether you write public complaint letters or not.

I also don't understand how you can claim to speak for the community, while presenting claims that the vast majority of users clearly does not support, while at the same time accusing Firaxis to have "lied" about the system specs. If that was a lie, then how do you call what you are doing? To me this looks a lot like a double moral standard, which I certainly won't support.

Regarding the issue "Games should be released withut bugs" - that's an ideal world that we just don't live in. We know that new games may be buggy and may or may not run on our machines. I usually don't buy any game for full price unless I played a demo of it. Nevertheless I got Civ4 on release date because I know Firaxis since their beginnings and I know that they support their software for a long time, and usually issue several patches until the game works right. (To my pleasant surprise, Civ4 ran much better than I expected, and has far, far fewer showstopper gameplay bugs than I expected from my experiences with their other games.) There is another game which a even pre-ordered a full year before release because I know the developers will get it right. There are also many game companies in which I don't trust so much - but from those I'd never buy an un-tested game.

Buying a game from a company you don't trust is nothing more but carelessness. It may work out, but don't put the blame entirely on others if it doesn't. There are lots of precautions you could have taken.

 

[SeaDog98520]

Wardie9

maybe next time you will be on the other side of the fence.

this forum is largely oblivious to the problems of many many people

I posted the same thread in the tech forum as a comparison and this is not a lone opinion. Sorry.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=143414

Gee, I was just going to ignore this thread like so many other threads where complaints are not presented in a rational manner... but just had to respond to this stupid rant....how can you say that the forum is oblivious to the problems when people like you continue to start new rants over and over again.. and then say that you posted the same thread in another forum and admit that it is not a lone opinion...

I see many people and the company responding to well presented problems, but they like most of the pro-game people here (duh.. this is a fan site), we tend to just ignore rants with stupid topics and outlandish headings... I just hope you either get it fixed or go on to something else that tickles your fancy... I for one enjoy all that they have done to make the game the best ever and even more enjoyable to play....gotta run... I've got mongols to destroy..

 

[spincrus]

I sometimes wonder how many people claim that they speak for some public opinion, when the opinion they present is drastically different from the results of every single poll on these forums.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[MattJek]

I sometimes wonder how many people claim that they speak for some public opinion, when the opinion they present is drastically different from the results of every single poll on these forums.

.... and these grandiose titles which include phrases like " Open Letter...." or "Complete Failure..." always make me roll my eyes.

 

[Coreymas]

I dont think that you should believe that going exclusively to Consoles is going to solve all the bug issues you are experiencing. The only thing that consoles take out of the "bug equation" is that the hardware is standardized. Also if you have not taken a "Google" look lately you will find that the XBox 360 (which was released just 3 days ago in the US) has been crashing alot since its initial release. And in the case of the XBox 360, it is appearing that it is an overheating issue (most likely overheating the graphics chips).

Also i am a software developer and i know the trials and tribulations of taking a project from development to testing to release. Sometimes you have a good testing process and sometimes you don't. Also you cannot blame the developer of a product if the management (in this case 2k) pushes the developer to release something that they know are not ready. Remember that the developer usually only gets paid most of their money from the producer only after release and in some contracts the developer is penalized if they dont release on time. Does that make releasing a product before it is ready the right thing? No but then again that is what happens.

The only time i have ever seen where a software product that is really good out of the box is when the company both develops and produces it. This is rare now as most development companies cannot afford the massive advertising dollars up front.

My 2 cents

Corey

 

[Huxley Hobbes]

I like the way that excuses are made for a product which does not work as advertised, when the specs are met. The fact of the matter is that such failures should be anomolies, not common enough to force a patch to be rushed out.

I was about to say 'What if it were a car, do you think people would put with failing brake pads?' but I think that rather highlights the difference which makes people say what they're saying. It seems as if the prevailing opinion is that a leisure product does not have to work as advertised, and that the consumers have to go along with whatever the developers or publishers say.

And don't say "You should have waited to see if there were problems." That implies there will be problems, which just shows that the whole premise is entirely flawed. (Moreover, if everybody waited to see if there were problems nobody would have discovered the problems.) The people who buy a computer game are buying a computer game, they're not brave explorers into some uncharted realm of a digital outback.

The fact is, a failure to work as advertised is a failure. It is not excusable, unless as I said above it is an anomoly.

 

[highstreet]

Even though it runs okay on my system, I couldn't agree more with the OP's 1st point.

 

[John L]

pdathert's open letter is "spot on" with me also. Never have I been so dissappointed with a game, and in truth, I am not a big gamer. Therefore, I don't have others to compare with, other than earlier Civilization games. I never owned Civ I, but have II and III, plus the latest "Conquests" edition of III as well.

While I took a short while to appreciate Civ III, with the advent of the Civ Editor, I was hooked. It has been a wonderful ride, and the money and time spent were well worth it for me.

However, I violated my first rule, in that I allowed my haste overcome reason, and I purchased the game as soon as it was released. What a horrible investment! Now, if I have to reload, build a new computer, etc, I must not only reinstall the game, but all the various and sundry modifications that are missing on my disc. And I have no doubt that there will be many modifications, if what I am witnessing is an example.

And I am looking at this from a business/economic angle here. Using the Supply-Demand principle, I, as the customer have paid good money for Firaxes' product, fully expecting to have a product that is what it is advertised as being. Under the standard business type contract, I agree to purchase their product, as advertised, and they agree to accept my money in exchange for that advertised product. That is the way it should be.

But in this case, the product is NOT as advertised, and since I have opened the Sam's Club casing, I can not return the defunct product for a refund. If the standard "contract" system were in place, that is exactly what I would do.

I honestly believe that it is incumbent upon Firaxus to make things good to all those who purchased their product, in "good faith", either through a refund, OR providing the dissatisfied customers with an updated and workable disc, at their expense.

In truth, the sellor has not fulfilled his/her/it's end of the contract with many of us, who purchased their product in that "good faith". And for that I am very dissappointed.

Now, if the fans of Civilization were to refuse to give Firaxis any more business, then perhaps Firaxis would finally "get" the message, and work harder to satisfy their customers. But if all of we dissatisfied customers simply lay down and roll over because we love the series, and are not willing to go the extra mile to hold Firaxis accountable, we will get what we deserve.

I for one, have tried everything that I humanely can do. I have a Nvidia Geforce card that is more than capable of handling the program, but it will not work for me. I have uninstalled, restalled from scratch, again uninstalled, then first installed DirectX, and then defragmented my hard drive before attempting again. I have installed the mod 1.09, and it does not work either. I have taken the Support advice by emptying my cache each time, and rebooting after each and every crash. It still refuses to function as advertised.

I find this totally unacceptable! I have even been kind enough to provide them with a copy of my "dxdiag" and it has been over one and a half weeks now, and not a word from them. I have a well trodden case number with them, and followed ALL their recommendations, like a good bloke, and I am not even a Brit. And still nothing works as it should.

And the further on the game goes, the worse it becomes: to the point of crashing several times before I can even finish one complete turn.

I honestly believe that the Firaxis crew should come here and explain themselves, and just what they intend to do about this monumental "Cluster Foxtrot"(I will refrain from using the proper Anglo-Saxon word).

Am I dissappointed? He11 yes!

Am I angry? He11 yes!

Will I be placated? Only if they make ammends and be honest with me about how they intend to correct the problem, and go out of their way to satisfy me.

Will I bother purchasing another edition? If they do not take the time by going "the extra mile", the answer is not only NO, but HE11 NO!

And if enough disgruntled ripped off customers refuse to take this anymore and let them know, this will only happen over and over and ove................................









PS: If Firaxis actually does take the time to read my complaint, they may contact me at "jlk103144@earthlink.net". Somehow, I shall not be holding my breath, in anticipation of an answer.

 

[John L]

And for all those folks, who have no problem with the program, my hat is off to you. But do not allow yourself to become complacent, as the next time may not be so lucky for you.

Remember that as you feel snug, as a bug, in a rug............................................

 

[John L]

The game doesn't work for you. That's sad. I understand your frustration. What I don't understand is that you feel the urge to scream blue murder not only for yourself, but even for the whole community, instead of just doing something else while waiting for Firaxis to fix your problem, which they will certainly do, no matter whether you write public complaint letters or not.

I will tell you why, you genius! And no, you DO NOT understand our frustration, or you would not make such an intellectually lazy comment. I and others are "screaming blue murder" because we paid money for a product that was advertised to work, and it does not! What part about that don't you comprehend?

If this is your attitude with business transactions, then you do not mind being ripped off on a daily basis. You are not opposed to having good money, that you work for, go down a big hole, and have nothing of value to show for it.

Your apparant ignorance of economics here is manifest for others to see. I suggest that you take a few minutes and try using some empathy, if you can, and Attempt to place yourself in other's shoes.

Then tell us what you really think of the situation, before you spout off such nonsense again.

Again, pure intellectual laziness on your part. Are you that unfamiliar with how contracts work? Are you the product of the public education system? Have you ever had any economics schooling at all? Because, if you had, you would not show your ignorance, and selfishness in front of so many others. You are simply amazing!

Regarding the issue "Games should be released withut bugs" - that's an ideal world that we just don't live in. We know that new games may be buggy and may or may not run on our machines.

Tell me Mr. Amazing and smugness, all rolled into one, when you purchase a new car, do you expect the brakes to work, the steering to steer, when you purchase the vehicle, or are you simply willing to wait, and rely upon other's good will, while the shortcomings are being corrected?

Nevertheless I got Civ4 on release date because I know Firaxis since their beginnings and I know that they support their software for a long time, and usually issue several patches until the game works right. (To my pleasant surprise, Civ4 ran much better than I expected, and has far, far fewer showstopper gameplay bugs than I expected from my experiences with their other games.)

It sounds to me that you got "lucky" with life's little lottery on this count. Congratulations Sport.

There is another game which a even pre-ordered a full year before release because I know the developers will get it right. There are also many game companies in which I don't trust so much - but from those I'd never buy an un-tested game.

You had better hope that you do not have problems, or you may have to lower yourself and crawl in the gutter with the rest of us who are unhappy with the false advertisement of certain game makers.

Buying a game from a company you don't trust is nothing more but carelessness. It may work out, but don't put the blame entirely on others if it doesn't. There are lots of precautions you could have taken.

You are correct there: "May the Buyer Beware!" But with the same token, you should also use more "precaution" prior to opening your "smug" mouth and inserting your "holier than thou" foot into it, and making such a fool of yourself here.

Perhaps a little bit of humbleness is in order for you. So I will offer this for you to chew upon. May you have purchases in the future, where you are forced to experience our problems, so you can have the opportunity to regret your past remarks, and learn a bit of well deserved humility.

 

[Psyringe]

John L, you could have made your point with far less sarcasm and personal attacks. I'll try to adress the arguments while ignoring any insults, although I had appreciated it if you had abstained from them.

I will tell you why, you genius! And no, you DO NOT understand our frustration, or you would not make such an intellectually lazy comment. I and others are "screaming blue murder" because we paid money for a product that was advertised to work, and it does not! What part about that don't you comprehend?

Believe me, I was often enough in your shoes to understand your frustration. I bought the original "Outpost", for example, the strategy / simulation game that was hyped with no end at its time, but yet so badly designed that you just couldn't keep your people alive, no matter what you tried. I've also witnessed the whole MoO3 disaster, although at that time I had long learned my lesson and didn't buy the game (the developer's statement "There won't be a demo, the game is so good that it doesn't need one" rang several alarms in my head). I do understand your frustration, but that doesn't mean I have to embrace everything that comnes out of it.

If this is your attitude with business transactions, then you do not mind being ripped off on a daily basis. You are not opposed to having good money, that you work for, go down a big hole, and have nothing of value to show for it.

Oh, I actually do mind being ripped off. I even mind when people are ripping others off when I'm nt even the victim. For example, I haven't been ripped off by MoO3, because I didn't buy it. But I do think that the developers of this game did rip people off, and should they ever start a new project, you can count on me appearing in the respective forums and warning their customers-to-be. I actually check their homepage from time to time to get informed what they do.

I just don't feel that Firaxis ripped anyone off. They release a product, it works fine for the majority, but the number of people who can't put the game to work is larger than it should be. They are working on fixes. If they don't provide them, then, yes, they have ripped people off. But the chance that this happens is infinitesimally small. Firaxis past record thoroughly rebuts it, as does the fact that not supporting their flagship would mean to commit economical suicide, and they know that quite well. Their dedication to fix Civ3, which had far worse gameplay problems when it was released, shows that.

Again, pure intellectual laziness on your part. Are you that unfamiliar with how contracts work? Are you the product of the public education system? Have you ever had any economics schooling at all? Because, if you had, you would not show your ignorance, and selfishness in front of so many others. You are simply amazing!

I'm not sure what my education or knowledge of economics has to do with it. If you think that Firaxis broke a contract with its customers, then you are free to take legal action. I'd advise against it though. As far as I know, laws regarding the sale of faulty products give the seller at least the right to mend the product. And that's not even taking into account the possibility that the problem may lie in the user's hardware.

Tell me Mr. Amazing and smugness, all rolled into one, when you purchase a new car, do you expect the brakes to work, the steering to steer, when you purchase the vehicle, or are you simply willing to wait, and rely upon other's good will, while the shortcomings are being corrected?

I actually did buy a new car some years ago, and it happened to leak oil. I had to have it fixed. The company did that, but I had to (partly) pay for the fix. I won't buy a car from this company again.

But if find the car analogy unfitting. Firaxis has never let me down that way. They always fixed their games, actually they did it far better than most other companies around.

It sounds to me that you got "lucky" with life's little lottery on this count. Congratulations Sport.

If you count belonging to the vast majority of people as being lucky, then, yes, I was lucky. Personally, I think that for being lucky, you have to experience something special, something that the majority of people does not have. So I don't consider myself being lucky in this case.

Perhaps a little bit of humbleness is in order for you. So I will offer this for you to chew upon. May you have purchases in the future, where you are forced to experience our problems, so you can have the opportunity to regret your past remarks, and learn a bit of well deserved humility.

I already had the experience of having purchased products which were faulty, and not having them fixed - see above. But I learned my lesson. There are companies which I trust, based on previous experiences, and there are companies which I don't trust. Firaxis clearly belongs among those trustworthy.

That said, I certainly will experience such problems again - as much as I try to test the products I buy, I can't do it every time. In that case, I usually try to get in contact with people who can help me, and try to work together with them on a solution. This has worked well in the past. Being constructive pays off. Premature (and sometimes simply false) public complaints however are unlikely to really achieve anything.

 

[blakjak69]

Glitches/bugs/defects are supposed to be the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. Pretty sad to see so many people trying so hard to convince themselves, as well as others, that this is acceptable.

 

[John L]

Psyringe, perhaps I was a bit harsh on your wording, but I feel justified in saying what I did. I should have been more tactful, but in truth, I am the product of being an Army bratt, military college graduate, and having spent some time in the active military. Consequently, using civilian diplomacy, is not in my "professional job description". I "calls it as I sees it".

And your apparant 'smugness' put a huge burr under my saddle, and rubbed me the wrong way.

And frankly, I am tired of the frustration of being ripped off, and not actually being able to do something concrete about it. The cost of the product is not worth the time and money spent taking legal action with regards to it's ability to live up to it's description.

To my way of thinking, this is a "breech of contract", the software makers should be held accountable, or they will continue to allow this to happen time again, world with end, amen.

And also, I have some other problems that I would love to critique with the developers. for example, I am left handed, and use a high performance touchpad, instead of a mouse. I use the touchpad with my left hand, and loved the way I could open and close cities, and other improvements, etc, with Civ III, simply by hitting the "Enter" key with my right hand. I could simply "fly" with Civ III as a result. Now, this does not work, and it is a major oversight with the vast numbers of we lefties.

they should know about this, along with other simple things that could be corrected. However, I am so irrate, that I have neither the time nor inclination to pass this along, as they have not even taken the time to live up to their contract with me. And the same with thousands of others, judging by what I have read here on this site, since rejoining the site.

Anyway, if I offend, I appologize. But I am as serious as a heart attack here. These folks that are responsible for this game, whether it be Firaxis, 2K, or even Sid himself, need to come out and admit that they have placed many of us in a real "military bind" here, and they should make good on their end of the contractural agreement. I, for one, have fulfilled my end of the bargain. It is time for them to do same.

 

[Almd]

I e-mailed Take 2 Technical Support about all the problems I was having and this is what they replied. I still didn't fix my problems. Their customer servie is horrible. And yes I installed the patch...still didn't work.

"Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for contacting Take 2 Technical Support.


In order to fully troubleshoot the problem that you are having please try
the steps below:

1. Delete all temporary files from your system.
Navigate to C:\Windows\Temp and delete all files in this folder.
Navigate to C:\Documents and Settings\*Your User Name*\Local Settings\Temp
and delete all the files in this folder.
You may need to turn on the ability to view hidden files and folders to do
this. To do so, double click My Computer, then click Tools and Options.
Then click View and select the option to view all hidden files.
Then reboot and try the game again.

2. Close down all background tasks.
To do this click Start, then Run, then type MSCONFIG and click OK. From
there click on the tab marked startup.
For Windows XP users click the button marked as Disable All, then click
Apply and Close.
For Non Windows XP users, please remove the ticks from all of the boxes
apart from the below four and then click Apply and close.
LoadPowerProfile
ScanRegistry
SystemTray
TaskMonitor
Once this has been done, please reboot the computer and then try the game
again.

3. Reinstalling the game.
Please uninstall the game, then delete the folder that is left behind. Then
reboot the computer, reinstall the game and reboot again. Then install any
patches that are available for the game, reboot the computer and then try
the game again.

4. Run a thorough Scandisk and Defrag on your computer.
From the Start menu please select and run a thorough Scandisk of your
computer's hard disk drive. Then run the Defrag option from the same menu.
Then reboot and try the game again.

5. Update your drivers.
Please ensure that you have downloaded and installed the latest drivers for
your video and sound cards available from the website of the card
manufacturer. Then reboot and try the game again.
If all of the above have not resolved your situation then please reply back
to this e-mail attaching the information from the DirectX Diagnostic Tool.
To do this click Start then Run and type DXDIAG then click OK. From there
select the button marked as Save All Information and save the text file it
creates. Then attach that file to the e-mail and send it to us.



Please be sure to delete all previous correspondence when replying. This
will help us to process your response in a more timely and efficient manner.

Kind Regards,
Take 2 Technical Support"

 

[Reprisal]

I lurk on a lot of game forums, and I must say that these sorts of complaints are made about developers for every type of game out there. Though I have had problems with certain games, I understand that the unique configuration of nearly all PCs does increase the difficulty of making a game playable for everyone. I understand and accept this, and I only wish that others would be more forgiving. I always wonder what the actual ratio is between the vocal people on these types of threads and the people who don't say anything because: (A) they're playing the game, and/or (B) they haven't heard of these forums. There will never be a way to know the exact numbers, but I will take a guess that it weighs in the favour of "the game works for most people."

As others have posted, I will join in thanking the developers for a great game and will hope that they will get fixes out for the problems that other users seem to be having.

 

[Phoenix_56721]

I would just like to say that I have Below min. requirements for Civ4 (P3- 866 mhz, 512 ram, 128 geforce 5700 le ) and I was able to run it fine out of the box, I had to play on standard maps but that was a small sacrifice to play this fantastic game. Now with the patch I can play on larger maps WOW, Thanks Firaxis for making a great game, and getting the patch out promptly! I hope all of you at Firaxis now get a much deserved break and have a Happy Holiday!!!!

 

[pdathert]

John L


All that he says

I like this cat.

Can anyone please tell me the point of all the different zooms and stuff?

Does it really aid gameplay in ways different to the old city view/world view of civ's I, II and III, or is it simply a system killer?

Graphics over accessibility = never ever good

 

[Zinegata]

AND one last thing: Yes, the Civ tag and the Sid Meier name are almost guarantees that the games carrying those names will be good.

Actually, this is a fallacy. Having a great brand name will ensure that a game will sell. It is not the same as the game being good =).

Case in point for the movie industry: The Matrix. It's got a killer brand name and it all but ensured that its sequels would be sell-outs. But were the sequels really that good? Many people didn't feel so.

Good companies protect their brand name. Many others simply exploit their brand name. The "Civ" tag does not protect it from poor quality or exploitation. In fact, having such an honored brand name could make it a much more enticing to exploit it.

Just see how Infogrames took over the honored Atari brand name, yet continued the same business practices that has made it one of the least-regarded publishers in the entire industry. Infogrames benefitted from the publicity boost at first, but eventually people realized that it was just the same company hiding under a different name. In the end, it was the name Atari that suffered. The name once associated as a pioneer of computer gaming is now associated with shoddy products and poor support.

It is thus the right and duty of the consumer to complain. Companies are willing to release shoddy products precisely because no one holds them to high standards. And when shoddy products are released, a name, no matter how honored, will eventually be tarnished. And a brand, once tarnished, will no longer sell.

The fact that there are so many who complain about Civilization is a good thing. People care enough about Civilization enough that they take the time to point out problems with the game and to propose solutions. With any other crappy game, consumers will simply ignore it and refuse to buy it.

The fact that some Civ players keep on jumping on people who complain is a bad thing. If you want to defend a product yourself, buy it. If you want other people to defend the product, ask for improvements so that more people like it. If somebody asks for something that is simply inane, ignore it. The wise cannot be insulted, for the truth does not insult and rest are not worth listening to.

That being said, the OP could have been more mature in his post, but he did demonstrate a disturbing trend in Civilization games. Civilization, frankly, has not become terribly more complex. Yet, it is demanding far higher system requirements compared to its earlier incarnations. I think the weakness lies not in the use of new graphics technologies (tests in these forums have shown graphics cards could handle Civ's graphics easily). Rather, it is because the Firaxis team has failed to optimize the game. Civilization III definitely lacked optimization, as demonstrated by the abysmally long time it took for the computer to take its turn (solved only after a few patches), and the very same lack of optimization seems to plague Civilization IV (i.e. the suspected memory leak).

One should not rely on patches to optimize a game. An optimized game should be available on release. The games of the 90s performed so well not because they were simple. Rather, many performed well because they were optimized. Blizzard is said to take an immensely long time to release its games, but this is because they optimize their products. Blizzard games, consistently, are able to run in relatively low-spec PCs yet are still able to deliver excellent, detailed graphics. This is the gold standard. Civilization, right now, is falling far short.

 

[Zadox]

100% /agree. This is pathetic customer service (at this point on par with SOE and their NGE disaster).

What's worse is that I can run ANY other game with no crashes on the same hardware (Battlefront II, Empire Earth II, WOW, EVE-Online, really any game that I have which is over 50) and the CIV 4 devs are quoted as saying that "consoles are starting to look good about now" because they have the same hardware. So, every other game company can get it right except for Firaxis and 2k??

Seriously, hire a consultant to come in and fix this game before we get to Christmas or your stock/bottomline is going to take a beating when even more people can't play this game.