Pacts of Cooperation and Secrecy

[eric_]

OK, so I've been trying to figure out if there are any concrete benefits to either a PoC or a PoS (heh). I haven't found anything on this in the forums, the manual, or the civilopedia, so I started this thread. If something else already exists, please point the way!

Anyway, so it seems like a PoC is just a modicum of assurance that the other party to the PoC won't attack you during the pact.

A PoS...I can't even get that far. Is it anything more than its acronym implies (Piece of...)? Is it basically just assurance that the other party to the PoS won't band together with the target civ to attack you? Or, that the other party to the pact won't blab if you agree to go to war with the target civ within 10 turns (a new option that I like a lot, btw)? Something else?

edit: I put this in strategy because the details of these pacts can have strategic implications for when or whether to join them.

 

[ZwodahS]

i think after you form the POS , there is a chance that the civ will ask you to join him in the attack of the target.

 

[eric_]

If that's all it is, it seems like a silly step. Would be better if they just said,

"Will you help us in this war?

a) Yes
b) Let's form a pact of secrecy and we'll join you in 10 turns
c) Naw, you crazy!"

 

[Dermo]

OK, so I've been trying to figure out if there are any concrete benefits to either a PoC or a PoS (heh) .

This conjured up a wonderful mental image.
Monty and Napoleon enter into a PoS against Washington.
They take said PoS put it in a paper bag and light it on fire on the doorstep of the American embassy, ring the bell, then run away.

 

[eric_]

lmao!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's retained the humor of youth

 

[TheBlackHole]

So far as I can tell -- from my experience and others on the board -- there is no real concrete benefit to signing these. However, it is actually sort of useful as a gauge to how AI civs feel about you.

If someone offers you a PoC, that means they're looking favorable towards you and you don't have to worry too much (yet) about them declaring on you. Signing these seems to be safe with no consequences. And obviously no one knows the internal calculations, but it may help boost relations in a small way.

If someone offers you a PoS, that means the target of the PoS is probably in more danger than you are. You should probably expect a war declaration between the PoS offerer and the PoS victim at some point (and prepare/decide accordingly what that means to you). However, there seems to be no benefits to you whatsoever for signing... but there ARE consequences. If you end up doing business with the PoS victim, that seems to get the AI angry with you. I mean, kind of realistic, actually... you're basically backstabbing your "secrecy buddy" and reneging on your promise. It is usually advised, it seems, to never sign a Pact of Secrecy, as there really is no benefit (all you do is lose one trading partner or pissing off the offerer).

If you had a PoC and then the AI says it doesn't want to continue it anymore, you better be prepared for war... because for some reason you've suddenly fallen out of favor with that AI and it may now actively hate you.

Long story short, the decision has no real benefits (only consequences!), but it is actually useful as a gauge for where you stand with certain civs.

 

[durannarud]

I don't know how useful it is, but I always use them, just in case.

Overall, I think both Cooperation and Secrecy are diplomacy embryos for further game expansions.

 

[eric_]

Yeah, those points more or less cover my operating assumptions when presented with either of those pacts. Assuming we're correct, I do think a PoS is worthwhile if you are in conquering mode but want extra assurance that you'll only have to deal with one front at a time.

Now, flipping your point about losing a trading partner on its head brings up an interesting idea I hadn't thought of: using PoS's offensively (and not just in the way Dermo suggested to disrupt your opponent's trading.

 

[Carl5872]

This conjured up a wonderful mental image.
Monty and Napoleon enter into a PoS against Washington.
They take said PoS put it in a paper bag and light it on fire on the doorstep of the American embassy, ring the bell, then run away.

That was HI-larious! I may just dress up as monte, and shanghai my brother into dressing up as napoleon and do it this year on halloween. look for our arrests on the news!

 

[eric_]

And, of course, I just realized that PoC and PoS can be used synonymously in Dermo's joke.

Why do I feel like the devs were having too much fun naming those?

 

[eric_]

PS - durannarud, have any thoughts about how the concepts might be expanded?

edit: something else I wonder is, does a pact of secrecy mean that a target civ won't know if you sign an open borders agreement, trade strategic resources, etc., with your PoS partner? If so, that would be a pretty concrete benefit.

 

[Duo]

Your POC partner will always trade with your fairly, afaics. Usually a sign that getting an RA with them will always be a good idea... That's about all I can discern. They're probably also more likely yo give in to demands. I don't know if a POS does anything, so much as you're obliged to keep it. But I think you can tell when civs have a POS against you with someone since they only offer stupidly unfair deals.

 

[durannarud]

PS - durannarud, have any thoughts about how the concepts might be expanded?

edit: something else I wonder is, does a pact of secrecy mean that a target civ won't know if you sign an open borders agreement, trade strategic resources, etc., with your PoS partner? If so, that would be a pretty concrete benefit.

I think a pact of secrecy means nobody knows you are "allied," so your alliance doesn't piss off the neighboring AIs (especially the target himself).

As for expansions:

I think it's gonna be inspired by the old European system of balance of power, where each nation is kept in check so as to maintain a sort of status quo where nobody can beat everyone else. I can see signs of that in the way the AI reacts when I fight their enemy (they're "happy") and when I actually conquer their enemy (they're unhappy because I've grown too strong). I think diplomacy could get very interesting with further upgrades. It seems like it's gearing for something more complex than just the +/- points from CIV4.

 

[eric_]

Interesting. If PoS does hide alliances and all agreements you make, it could be used to very effectively isolate a target civ.

Also, would be interesting to see what happens if you create a PoS with two civs against one another. Can you then trade freely and make agreements with each without the other one knowing?

 

[gaiko]

That would be interesting if true. OTOH, I've wondered the converse: If entering into a PoS doesn't also secretly enter a demerit with the AI entered into with? After all, if you are willing to act secretly with a 3rd AI, who's to say that you wouldn't later do the same against the AI you formerly made a PoS with?

Especially if you are out to win the game?

Interesting. If PoS does hide alliances and all agreements you make, it could be used to very effectively isolate a target civ.

Also, would be interesting to see what happens if you create a PoS with two civs against one another. Can you then trade freely and make agreements with each without the other one knowing?

 

[tibbles]

Cooperations always seem worth signing, I think it's a small positive and they will usually break them a turn or two before if planning to declare, so DoWs seem a negligible risk while in one.

Secrecy doesn't seem worth losing the trading partner except in rare cases where you don't plan to trade with the victim anyways. My question here is, what happens if you sign a pact of secrecy against then dow a target? Does making a peace treaty to end the war count as breaking your pact?

If I can expand on the original question, what about those requests to join in war where you can say "Give me 10 turns to prepare". I wait 10 turns and the AI doesn't DoW and they don't ask me again...Yet if I DoW on my own, I now have to bribe them to join me?...

 

[H4run]

in my experience, POS do have an effect, if u agree to POS with AI against another AI, whenever u declare war with the AI that u isolated, u will not suffer relationship penalty with your POS partner. In exchange, they will say nice thing to u like "good luck!" or something like that, and your relationship still as sweet as sugar but the flow will change 180 degree when your expansion make u stronger nation and threatening their empire, it cause u relationship penalty that come up from the different reason.

Dont know, that what i sense (there are no clear math on the AI, sometimes u just have to sense the outcome without clearly understand the calculation behind it)

 

[grandad1982]

PoS seems to mean suprisingly little to the AI some times. Recently I was asked to enter a PoS against Hiawatha by Ramesses and I said no. A few turns later the two AIs concerned signed a RA!

I wish that the diplo was slightly less "opaque". Not the +/- of civ 4 but at least visable and relativaly easy to grasp whats going on.

 

[Krieger66]

in my experience, POS do have an effect, if u agree to POS with AI against another AI, whenever u declare war with the AI that u isolated, u will not suffer relationship penalty with your POS partner. In exchange, they will say nice thing to u like "good luck!" or something like that, and your relationship still as sweet as sugar but the flow will change 180 degree when your expansion make u stronger nation and threatening their empire, it cause u relationship penalty that come up from the different reason.

Dont know, that what i sense (there are no clear math on the AI, sometimes u just have to sense the outcome without clearly understand the calculation behind it)

They also increase the second ai's hostility with the pact's target, and(I think) may affect your income.

I have had pacts of secrecy that were still maintained after I had formed a PoC with the target, and the person I had the agreement with still seemed to like me. We even went to war against the 50 or so turns later...

They seem to make the asker like you more when you agree, with little impact on the target's disp and can lead to PoC's. I think they are a great deal, and should be taken at any opportunity. It could also be that the civ your at war with offered you a generous deal and, due to an AI flaw, all other civs' relations toward you decrease as they now see you as a warmonger and a potential upstart(pick on "weaker" nations)

So far as I can tell -- from my experience and others on the board -- there is no real concrete benefit to signing these. However, it is actually sort of useful as a gauge to how AI civs feel about you.

......

Long story short, the decision has no real benefits (only consequences!), but it is actually useful as a gauge for where you stand with certain civs.

I have to disagree with you there. PoC's can help further improve relations, and seem to also affect the deals ai's will agree to. Having it be cancelled is definitively not an act of war, they have a turn limit just as any other agreement in Civ V(30 or 45 turns).

 

[eric_]

Yeah, I'm not sure PoS's have any effect on trading with the target, as I have had an AI ask me to join a PoS against X, with whom I have ongoing deals, without asking that I cancel those deals.