PCC Game 3: Diety!

Peaster

Emperor
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Sep 26, 2004
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PCC Game 3

Welcome to Primitive Conquest Challenge, in which you must defeat the six other civilizations with just hordes of warriors. No horses allowed! We are starting the long-awaited Comparison Game #3 - Diety Level!

If you are new to this whole idea, please read the previous PCC threads here in the CFC Strategy Forum. The Rules are the same as in Game 2; you must win by conquest. You can only attack with warriors (and diplomats), not with horses, triremes, etc. All GOTM rules apply ... ... OK, probably it's just Magic Gorter and me, and we both know the rules already. So, here's the starting info and save.

Rameses of Egypt vs Six Mortal Kings
Diety, Large round map
Restless tribes, Restarts OFF
{Alphabet, Masonry, Pottery}.
 

Attachments

Magic, have you started yet? I want to ask you something, but if you are already playing the game, maybe I should wait until you are done.
 
OK. Since you are already at 1AD, and I'm at 600BC, my comments probably won't spoil your game. But you can decide whether to look now or later:

Spoiler :
My game got off to a pretty bad start. The Greeks attacked in 850BC with hordes of horsemen and warriors. They razed a few cities, and forced me to pump out warriors, which set me back about 200 years. I finally managed to defend, and build GW, but the Sioux beat me to LH (and I still don't have Marco's). Looks like I'll need Navigation before I can get very far off our island, and that could take a long time without overseas trade. It's not hopeless, but I don't know if I want to continue at such a disadvantage. :(
 
I have no big problems. More details in the spoiler. Don't know if it will harm..don't think so.
Spoiler :
Build LH just in time (other civ was near ending it). Luck with huts (extra cities). Have lot of wonders...Marco, Hanging, Great Wall, Lighthouse, Mich's. That were my goals first. After that I start thinking, planning and building units the "landing" part. First two groups are heading for the capitals and the others will follow soon.

One little problem there is...but it can become an advantage. One civ has Feudalim and Sun Tzu....when I have that city.....I don't have to build barracks after all :-)
 
I'm still playing, about 300AD now. The problems I mentioned above are not quite so serious as I thought. But I may need some kindness from the dumb AI to win this one!
 
Aaaaaaeeeeiiiii! I've been playing this game for four days straight. If only I had gotten the Lighthouse back in 600BC ... the game would have gone so much faster! I can't believe people actually play Civ2 without the Lighthouse! Spoiler info below is probably safe, if you've started your conquests or played past 500AD.

Spoiler :
I'm at AD 1080, taking over an hour a turn, because I have about 250 warriors, 80 vans, etc. It's really awkward to move all these units around without the LH. I could have had Navigation long ago (my science has been set at zero), but I wanted the steady trade bonuses.

I've conquered the Greeks and Russians (easiest to get to). The US started on Feudalism about 10 turns ago, so I've been trying to beat them down since then. I managed to give them a couple of techs, when they demanded them; and I took Washington this morning (losing 18 vet warriors to 3 defenders plus a boat). But they had 9 other BIG republican cities, which I couldn't afford to bribe quickly. Now they are down to 3, but I am about out of cash, too.

I took Zimbabwe yesterday, but the Zulus managed to rebuild their capital within 3 turns - this rarely happens in normal EC games, where the AI is usually poorer, from tribute or just an earlier conquest date. Tonight I managed to find and raze the new capital. I've also bribed a few of their smaller cities, so probably they are on the way down.

I have built fortresses at Little Big Horn [Lighthouse] and at Tronheim, but haven't been able to build up enough force to conquer. They have catapults/crusaders/etc, which have worn my warriors down about as fast as I can send more in. I hope the balance will shift now that the US and Zulus seem to be worn down.

I have TONs of caravans, about half of them Hides. But demand has dryed up, or shifted, faster than I can adjust my ship chains (without Lighthouse). I've almost got a new route open now, so maybe that will solve the economic problems, and allow massive bribery.

What a tough game! And it could still fall apart if some AI researches gunpowder, or even feudalism, and shares it. It has been a lot of fun, but I hope you are having an easier time than this.
 
No hurry. I've been playing like a maniac, and my game is finally done. Here's my log; I can probably provide more details and stats if you want.

Spoiler Info Below:

4000BC: S starts a road, the other goes for the hut.
3950BC: hut = 50g
3900BC: Thebes (1) built on the hut square.
3850BC: Memphis (2) on the eastern tip.
3500BC: CB->C.Laws
3050BC: Heli(3)
2850BC:Elep(4) and CL->BW
2550BC: hut=AT=Alexandria(5), a bit lucky, and that this city survived the Greeks, whom I was not yet aware of.
2350BC: BW->Mo'y. Somehow Civ2 played some trick on me. It said I had 60 beakers to go for my next tech. Then the 60 went down to 48 (maybe my tech penalty went down???) and then back up to 60 (why?). This threw me off, and I didn't get this govt until 1850.
2300BC: Greek horse appears, but my expanding settlers form a decent defense. Peace.
2000BC(?): 8 cities. Mo'y-> Curr. "Nearest city info" shows my new cities are very close to some Greek ones.
1850BC: Monarchy
1600BC: Curr->MM, 10 cities
1550BC: Greeks declare war. Wait! I'm not ready!
1500BC: I give them 3 techs for a cease fire and MapM (but they are not cordial, so we can't swap maps yet).
1450BC: -> Trade.
1200BC: Trade->Wri, and I rush to make some vans for HG
925BC: HG ahead of the Sioux, US and Gr's. Not sure about the next big thing [MPE? GW? LH? another boat first? ]
850BC: Greeks demand masonry... No... War! (but I'm still not ready).
825BC: I lose several battles and one city to Greek horsemen (the Greek civ seems quite big!).
800BC: Greeks attack again but mostly lose (eg horses vs settlers).
775BC: More Greek horses attack, and take another city. Zulu's build Colossus. I'm rushing warriors to the front, and can't build up my civ.
750BC: Greek horse defeats my vet settler on a forest (this seems a bit unlucky).
725BC: The warriors strike back and defeat two wounded horsemen. My population is lingering in 3rd place ?! My main hope is to build the GW to stop the bleeding from the war, but maybe the Greeks were running out of horses(?).
700BC: Greeks pay 100g for cf, and 100g for peace ! (amazing, but they still did more damage to me than I to them).
600BC: Great Wall ! Now, I finally felt I could survive another war. But building this WOW (instead of LH first) was probably a huge mistake.
I have only 18 cities, and want about 50 by AD 1, but it won't happen so fast in this game. I start collecting vans for LH, but ....
500AD: "The Sioux have almost completed LH" This was a shock. I thought they were working on the Pyr's, or something else. Can't compete, so they build it next turn. The LH is a HUGE part of my game, and I really suffered from the lack of it for the rest of the game. The Sioux are almost inaccessible without LH (or Nav, which takes many more turns, and I prefer to avoid it anyway). I managed to get to all the civs eventually, by taking some risks with my triremes, but I didn't find island 35 (quick route to USA) until the game was over. This also made overseas van deliveries painfully slow. If Magic Gorter had not already started, I would have asked to start a new game!

Stats at 500BC: 22 cities, 27 w, 1S, 2tri, 1d, 1v. Lost 7w, 1S +cities. Pop600, HG+GW, Mfg75, 42g, peace with Greeks.

400BC: MPE shows the Greeks are biggest (behind me). I get all maps, but not many great sea routes are visible. I get seafaring from the US, which allows some short deep ocean trips, with less risk.
300BC: US builds Pyr (wanted it, but not too much on Deity). First van, pays 152g. While waiting to solve the naval problems, I'm invading Greece with settlers (and dips/etc), forcing a "road of cities" thru their homeland, towards Athens.
AD1(approx): First outpost in Zulu land, triremes also survive a hop to the USA (via #31, since I hadn't found #35). 33 cities, 41w's ... gold spiked up to 343g from deliveries every 1-2 turns.
80AD: Russians sneak attack vs 2 vans near Moscow !? There are several AI vs AI wars going on. I'm aiming to trade with the USA(repbulic).
200AD: Vik's build GL.
280AD: Greeks want war again.
300AD: US builds Oracle. I build Mike's.
340AD: Greek elephant takes my city, but I bribe it back. I'm getting lots of fairly meaningless techs, like bridges, from van bonuses. Not sure if I'll go for Nav/Inv later, but don't want the trade penalty for now.
420AD: Spy on Athens, someone builds KRC. Not sure how to approach Moscow - it has no roads or rough terrain nearby. I prepare some charged settlers to rush up to it in the same turn, then build a road or two, before being destroyed (hopefully). Actually, the Russians just let this happen without even attacking.
480AD: 20 warriors attack Athens and win. Anybody want a screenshot of the bizarre city-road to Athens? I have 73 cities and 99 warriors. I built no more WoWs after Mikes.
500AD: Battles go OK in Russia. Am buying up the Greeks. Building strength vs USA.
 
More Log (Spoiler info):

580AD: Greeks down! USA sneaks.
620AD: Mosocw falls. Defenses vs barbs are OK.
780AD: Russia down! City walls at Washington down. But it's still a big Republican city with 6 defenders, so I "siege it" and it loses 1-2 defenders.
800AD: Vik cf expires and they attack, but not successfully. Since Tronhiem is on a river, and pretty far from home, I'm planning a quiet build-up there.
820AD: The Zulu's (at peace) demand that I withdraw from Zim. I have said yes several times before, but then some bug in Civ2 withdraws my armies from OTHER cities too, such as Washington/etc and endangers all my campaigns. So, I said No, and lost "Spotless" status. Zimbabwe falls that turn (with Colossus, but it never helped me).
840AD: The only techs left to me are bad ones (Feud, Nav, Inv) so I chose Nav and set science to zero for the rest of the game.

The USA is researching Feudalism. Magic has faced this, but I haven't. I step up my plans vs the USA. I can't tech bomb them since we are at war, but when they demanded Sanitation, I gladly said Yes, and then refused a cease fire.

880AD: The Zulu's build a new capital at Umfaloozi(sp?), which is not even on my map. Aaargh!! Also, the game is starting to crash about once per turn, losing me an hour of work each time, so I switched from 2.42 to MGE - this helps , but I dunno why.
900AD Viks build Copes. Also, they have a cat in Tronheim, which is taking out one Egyptian warrior fom my fort, every turn or so. I just refill the fort until I have more resources.
920AD: I was also in a stalemate with the Sioux, but now they attacked, and left units exposed, so I won some battles there. Instead of 9 defenders in LBH, they have 6. But I still can't conquer that city and get the LH - not yet.
940AD: 32 warriors attack Washington (3.5 defenders) and win (18 losses).
I'll try to buy up the "small" US cities (eg size 6) and sabotage the large ones, to delay Feudalism, and build up some major cash or a new army, for the size 12 cities.
960AD: My notes are sketchy, but IIRC, the Viks took one of my outposts near Tronheim, and I bribed it back. I buy Phil before it can build a new US capital. The US dmeands the Wheel and I say "Sure"!
980AD: Trade is good, and I can buy New York (and Pyr) for 800g. The US still has 5 cities.
1020AD: I give the Sioux a cf for 200g, and buy Boston (and Ora) for 600g.
I have invested in lots of Hides vans, but demand changed and I plan to trade with the Sioux as soon as I can get boats in place. Still missing LH!
1060AD: I demand tribute and the Sioux declare war. :) They are too weak to cause much trouble, and I can still trade with their exposed coastal Hides cities.
1080AD: Found second Zulu cap, and moved about 10 warriors there (it's only size 2) and defeat it. The Zulu's have a few cities left, but are going down.
1120AD: LBH is down to 3 defenders, mainly from silly attacks, and I have 22 warriors there, so I attack and win. Sioux cap down! LH! I finally feel that I will win this game (if US science remains stalled at Feudalism). I've found and bought all but 2 US cities. No progress vs Vikings, but am poised to bribe some outlying cities and/or units, and LH will give me faster access to them. Also, I have more outposts near Tronheim now, though they are not giving me a big army there.
1140AD: cf with Sioux for 450g. I attack Bapedi with 13 warriors (to save bribe money). They empty the city, but can't step in. Fortunately there is an Egyptian explorer nearby. I buy a few other cities and get some vans in, total is 2700g.
1160BC: Chicago (size 11) riots, so I buy it for only 300g. Then Atlanta for 660g. US down! No feudalism!
1200AD: Gold exceeds 5000 (from trade with Sioux). Buy Hlobane, and Zulu's down! Tronheim finally lost one of its attackers to a warrior in a fort. Two defenders are supported from nearby Aarhus, which I bribe for 1200g (ouch), so the capital now has only an archer, a phalanx and a wounded catapult (on a river). I've been sabotaging and investigating pretty regularly.
1220AD: I attack Tron with 22 warriors, but the catapult still barely clings to life. I bring in 4-5 more warriors from the nearby outposts and finally defeat it. Though not entirely planned, I have enough dips and boats to buy the last 4 Vik cities and two Sioux cities. THE END.

Stats: 170 cities, approx 300 warriors (F2 lost count) 111 triremes, 30 dips, 39 vans. I lost 185 warriors and 14 other units. Have 37 barracks. 34 advances (frozen at Nav for many years). 3500g. pop14.2, largest city = NY = size 11. Score 834+240.

This was a very memorable game, and I didn't know if I'd win it until near the end. Bad things tend to happen when you can't conquer by 1000AD, and I feel a little lucky that no civ got Feudalism (or Gunpowder/etc). I probably should have played more carefully in the beginning against the Greeks, and should not have let the LH get away from me, but that was partly bad luck, I think.

I don't know if I want to play Primitive Conquest anymore - this took A LOT of time and effort. But it was really a lot of fun to learn how to do it, and to see how far we could push things.

Best of luck to you, Magic Gorter, in your game, though you seem to be in control. Also, thanks to Banach, for suggesting these comparison games in the first place.
 
Thanks Peaster. I'm around 600 ad. Only the Zulu's are down because barbs took their capital early in the game. I do own Sun Tzu....so no more barracks to build. Only thing which can cause trouble is when I must take feudalism. But first getting enough units for my first attack. The Vikings are very hard for me. Hopefully I'm getting my defence up quickly. Other civs are not to hard (so far). I play on and let know when I'm done.

Congratulations with you're victory...most likely not done before and a great performance. Hopefully I can succeed also.
 
It sounds like you are doing well. At 600AD, I doubt we need to worry much about spoiler info, but I'll postpone discussing any specific attacking methods until you're done.

The Vikings were hard for me too, because they were far away, with a capital on river. And they kept lots of units in it; the usual defensive ones, plus catapults and elephants. But each of the other civs also provided unique problems

Greeks - they got big early and wore me down when I needed WoWs
Zulus - Quickly rebuilt their capital in an unknown city
Russians - wouldn't build roads near Moscow, for the fast-fortress trick
USA - BIG cities and started Feudalism
Sioux - Built LH in their capital, hard to reach them without LH

Sun Tzu will be a BIG help. I don't recall facing a civ with Feudalism (though I faced Poly in a horse or chariot conquest, IIRC) so I don't know exactly how hard that will be. If the USA had gotten it in my game, I was hoping to defeat all their cities on the last turn, if possible. If several civs had gotten it, same idea, but obviously that'd make the game harder.

There is no rush to finish, and it doesn't matter who finishes first. We can share the glory! :) :)
 
Magic ... still playing ? I might post something at Apolyton, since a couple of players seemed at least slightly interested in our experiment.
 
More Log (Spoiler info):

1200AD: Gold exceeds 5000 (from trade with Sioux). Buy Hlobane, and Zulu's down! Tronheim finally lost one of its attackers to a warrior in a fort. Two defenders are supported from nearby Aarhus, which I bribe for 1200g (ouch), so the capital now has only an archer, a phalanx and a wounded catapult (on a river). I've been sabotaging and investigating pretty regularly.
1220AD: I attack Tron with 22 warriors, but the catapult still barely clings to life. I bring in 4-5 more warriors from the nearby outposts and finally defeat it. Though not entirely planned, I have enough dips and boats to buy the last 4 Vik cities and two Sioux cities. THE END.

Stats: 170 cities, approx 300 warriors (F2 lost count) 111 triremes, 30 dips, 39 vans. I lost 185 warriors and 14 other units. Have 37 barracks. 34 advances (frozen at Nav for many years). 3500g. pop14.2, largest city = NY = size 11. Score 834+240.

Best of luck to you, Magic Gorter, in your game, though you seem to be in control. Also, thanks to Banach, for suggesting these comparison games in the first place.

Wow. :goodjob: I've always considered you one of the best EC players, but conquest on Deity with warriors is phenomenol. I compare you to the pioneers who started size one OCC and such, pushing the envelope far beyond what was thought possible. I'm glad my suggestion helped out, but I'm sorry I never really got into it like you two did. I've been away from the boards for a while and am just coming back now, largely because, I think, I need a break from being swamped at work, and Civ II is the best escape I can think of (Although I was considering FF VII or X). Once again, my hat's off to you.
 
Thanxs Banach...I'm still busy with the game...am playing it now and then. Hopefully I can end it next month. I hope Peaster is soon back online..haven't heard a while from him...mayby on holiday. The hints and tips of us togethers in the early games made this strategy a winning one..the game at Deity is however a lot harder then the on lower levels.
 
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