Amenhotep7
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Byzantium didn't exist at this period, did it???
All right: Neutral Greeks... Who would they be? Argos, Achae, and???...
All right: Neutral Greeks... Who would they be? Argos, Achae, and???...
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
yes, it was founded quite awile ago even then (its not like it suddenlly popped up during the Roma empire to re-named by Constantine... ) the city even attempted to rebel from Athens (showing how justified calling Athens an empire is) but was put put down, and pro-Athenian factions restored to political dominence
Amenhotep7
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Alright, Byzantium it is... 1)I think we should have victory point locations, though. Persia wasn't conquered in the Peloponnesian War Era, so I thought if I put Victory Point Locations, it would make it so conquering every civ isn't imperative. 2) Who will the Neutral Greeks be?
victory point locations vary depending on the extent of the map, assuming it stretches from western sicilly to Byzantium the vicory points shoul dbe as such (S indicates spartan territory, A indicates Athenian, I for indipendent statesm, and P for Persian)
1)Sparta-capturing the city f the toughest troops on earth in no lean feat!(S)
2)Athens- is second ONLY to sparta at this time in terms of military power, and even againt the most powerful army on earth, the city still had to be starved into submission...(A)
3)Corinth- such a city woul dbe a true boon to comerce, and the city was already famour throught the greek world (can you say "corinthian helmets?
) (S)
4)Syracuse- the most important, and largest city in italy at the time, it was the worlds only cultural rival to Athens, in art, philosophy, politics, and commerce, and population of free citizens(I)
5)Byzantium- the city was famous and rich as it was the gate keeper city to the black sea regions, and all of its trade partnes(A)
6)Olympia- site of the great temple of Zeus!(I)
7)Halicarnassos- one of the greates cities on the anatolian cost, it too was a great center of culture(A)
8)Delos- the origional site of the Delian league tresury, and site of the great tmeple to Appollo(A)
9)Sardis- the greates persian city in the area, it was an area of great wealth, and the center of recruitment ofr many Greek mercenaries, including the famour 10,000 (P)
10)Rome- even at this early date, the Roman republic was making headway in italy... (I)
1)Sparta-capturing the city f the toughest troops on earth in no lean feat!(S)
2)Athens- is second ONLY to sparta at this time in terms of military power, and even againt the most powerful army on earth, the city still had to be starved into submission...(A)
3)Corinth- such a city woul dbe a true boon to comerce, and the city was already famour throught the greek world (can you say "corinthian helmets?
) (S)4)Syracuse- the most important, and largest city in italy at the time, it was the worlds only cultural rival to Athens, in art, philosophy, politics, and commerce, and population of free citizens(I)
5)Byzantium- the city was famous and rich as it was the gate keeper city to the black sea regions, and all of its trade partnes(A)
6)Olympia- site of the great temple of Zeus!(I)
7)Halicarnassos- one of the greates cities on the anatolian cost, it too was a great center of culture(A)
8)Delos- the origional site of the Delian league tresury, and site of the great tmeple to Appollo(A)
9)Sardis- the greates persian city in the area, it was an area of great wealth, and the center of recruitment ofr many Greek mercenaries, including the famour 10,000 (P)
10)Rome- even at this early date, the Roman republic was making headway in italy... (I)
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
These look great! 
I'm adding the civs and victory point locations tommorow...I can post the product here, afterwards.
P.S. On the map, Olympia is in Spartan Territory.
I'm adding the civs and victory point locations tommorow...I can post the product here, afterwards.P.S. On the map, Olympia is in Spartan Territory.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Other victory point locations could be:
Helike: In Achaea, it was where the Achaeans met before the city was destroyed by an earthquake in 371BC. It had a very important temple of Poseidon which Greeks everywhere came to pray at.
Argos: In Argolis, it was a very large and important trading city.
Delphi: A temple complex in the area near Phocis, Locris and Boeotia. It had an oracle. It would only be a small city but would have tonnes of culture.
Dodona: In Epirus, it had an oracle. Like the Oracle of Delphi, it too gave sometimes dubious advice.
Pella: In Macedonia, it was made during the reign of Archelaus the capital of that kingdom.
Amphipolis: Near Macedonia, it had one of the most important gold mines in the ancient world: Mount Pangaeus. IIRC, it was also heavily fought over between Sparta and Athens.
Olynthia: In the Chalcidice, an important city.
Sestos: In the middle of the Chersonese (ie; Gallipoli in Turkey) It controlled a lot of the movement on the Dardenelles (or the Bosporus, I can't ever remember which one is which)
Miletus: In Ionia, the most important city in that region.
Helike: In Achaea, it was where the Achaeans met before the city was destroyed by an earthquake in 371BC. It had a very important temple of Poseidon which Greeks everywhere came to pray at.
Argos: In Argolis, it was a very large and important trading city.
Delphi: A temple complex in the area near Phocis, Locris and Boeotia. It had an oracle. It would only be a small city but would have tonnes of culture.
Dodona: In Epirus, it had an oracle. Like the Oracle of Delphi, it too gave sometimes dubious advice.
Pella: In Macedonia, it was made during the reign of Archelaus the capital of that kingdom.
Amphipolis: Near Macedonia, it had one of the most important gold mines in the ancient world: Mount Pangaeus. IIRC, it was also heavily fought over between Sparta and Athens.
Olynthia: In the Chalcidice, an important city.
Sestos: In the middle of the Chersonese (ie; Gallipoli in Turkey) It controlled a lot of the movement on the Dardenelles (or the Bosporus, I can't ever remember which one is which)
Miletus: In Ionia, the most important city in that region.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Good ideas, Mongoloid Cow! I'll add them tommorow!
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Originally posted by Amenhotep7
P.S. Where's Kryten???
Fear not, I am here.
(Good grief....I can't keep up my 'white-hot-pace' all the time you know!
)A few thoughts:-
What is the purpose of the scenario?
Is it to conquer everyone on the map? (unrealistic).
Or is it to gain as many points as possible before the scenario ends?
If it is the latter, then what will cause the scenario to end?
Also, will all the nations in the scenario be playable, or will it concentrate on Athens & Sparta, with the others as 'minor nations' just for historical accuracy?
(After all, you wouldn't expect a WW2 scenario to have Rumania, Hungary, and Finland to be equal to Germany, Russia, Britain & America would you)
So may I suggest the following:-
The Peloponnesian War lasted from 431 to 404 BC. So you could have the scenario end in say 403 BC because everybody was exhasted after 27 years of war. This means that the objective of the scenario is to gain as many points as possible before the end.
(27 years is 324 months.....and 300 monthly turns should be enough)
Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace and Persia had almost no impact, so these regions could contain no world wonders or victory point locations, making them 'pointless' and incidental to the main theatres of action. Likewise, the Etruscans & Romans played no part whatsoever, so should be left out.....although Syracuse (with a world wonder or two plus a victory point location) would be very important, and the Carthaginian cities and armies in Sicilly also played a minor role.
Persia did little more than give cash to one side or the other (mostly Sparta), so they could be limited by not allowing them to build any ships, thus keeping them in Asia Minor and out of Greece.
Culture-flips could also be emplyed to simulate the many revolts, double-dealing, and treachery of the period (you may have a large garrison in a city, but can you trust the garrison commander not to join the enemy?)
Last of all, here is a very wild idea: ONE CITY STATES!.
Politics and diplomacy played a vital role in this war....in fact, it was what the war was all about rather than the Alexandrian or Roman concept of 'conquest'.
Therefore.....why not have 30 odd different independant individual city states spread across the map?
For example, Athens, as head of the "Delian League" (we might call it the 'Athenian Empire', but they didn't
) would consist of dozens of 'one-city-states', all allied together at the start of the scenario, and the same with the "Peloponnesian League" led by Sparta.This would be not only realistic, but would also make it a 'unique' type of scenario: you do NOT control a nation that conquers another nation, but instead have to use all your dipolmatic skills in order to try and keep your allies together, as well as trying to gain as many points as possible before the scenario ends through sheer exhaustion.
Now THAT would be different.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
That would be different, and it is an interesting idea.
I wonder if Locked Alliances will affect victory points (but I doubt it).
If you do have lots of allied city-states, its best to conserve the number of cities (this would require a greater challenge) since you can't get more than 31, including Persia and possibly Carthage (I know Carthage was at war with Syracuse around this time, but you never hear about them in anything about the Peleponesian War).
On second thought, City-States might be tricky. It would be great if it was limited to mainland Greece, but it would be impossible to include a fair representation of all the cities that had importance (especially in the Aegean) and then balance it with the possibilities of Macedonians in the North and Persia in the East (Persia makes sense for a "Nation" though. The idea of not letting them build ships is an interesting one, although I had just thought of so many cool Persian unit ideas that won't have a chance to fight )
I wonder if Locked Alliances will affect victory points (but I doubt it).
If you do have lots of allied city-states, its best to conserve the number of cities (this would require a greater challenge) since you can't get more than 31, including Persia and possibly Carthage (I know Carthage was at war with Syracuse around this time, but you never hear about them in anything about the Peleponesian War).
On second thought, City-States might be tricky. It would be great if it was limited to mainland Greece, but it would be impossible to include a fair representation of all the cities that had importance (especially in the Aegean) and then balance it with the possibilities of Macedonians in the North and Persia in the East (Persia makes sense for a "Nation" though. The idea of not letting them build ships is an interesting one, although I had just thought of so many cool Persian unit ideas that won't have a chance to fight
)Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Kryten, IMO it would be dangerous to prevent the Persians building ships. Another solution should be found.
On city-states, its a good idea but you have to pick the right ones. You don't want too many or too few. But before you pick which civs you want, you should have some clear idea of what the map will encompass and how much room and resources there are.
City-states would also have the advantage of being able to get some cities to change sides (such as Ephesus on Sparta's side while most of Ionia was on Athens') and also you could add resources in these small civs to force the bigger players to either conquer them or ally with them. And as it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to conquer all of them from the onset, there is actually a need to keep allied with these civs.
On city-states, its a good idea but you have to pick the right ones. You don't want too many or too few. But before you pick which civs you want, you should have some clear idea of what the map will encompass and how much room and resources there are.
City-states would also have the advantage of being able to get some cities to change sides (such as Ephesus on Sparta's side while most of Ionia was on Athens') and also you could add resources in these small civs to force the bigger players to either conquer them or ally with them. And as it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to conquer all of them from the onset, there is actually a need to keep allied with these civs.
th eanswer to the city state idea is simple IMO...
in the Delian legue there were differnt "catagories" of "allies"- some of them even maintaininf full indioendence and willing casting in there lot with Athens during the war, those can be the indipwndents, while other cities, such Samos, and Melos , and I *think* Naxos, were all under DIRECT Athenian command (Samos even had Athenin citizenship bestowed upon them!)
though in my Opinion the most important citystates should be made indipendent these do NOT include Athens and Sparta, who will both own possesion out side fo there own cities, but rather cities like Thebes,Argos, and Corinth, who during the period would change side, at least after the peloponnesian war (as an interesting note, Corinth and Argos formed a short lived federal union during the period, with Argis even having troop sinside Corinth...I belive it is the first in history)
but themost important cities, not strategic importance, but cultural and political, should be made indipendents.
in the Delian legue there were differnt "catagories" of "allies"- some of them even maintaininf full indioendence and willing casting in there lot with Athens during the war, those can be the indipwndents, while other cities, such Samos, and Melos , and I *think* Naxos, were all under DIRECT Athenian command (Samos even had Athenin citizenship bestowed upon them!)
though in my Opinion the most important citystates should be made indipendent these do NOT include Athens and Sparta, who will both own possesion out side fo there own cities, but rather cities like Thebes,Argos, and Corinth, who during the period would change side, at least after the peloponnesian war (as an interesting note, Corinth and Argos formed a short lived federal union during the period, with Argis even having troop sinside Corinth...I belive it is the first in history)
but themost important cities, not strategic importance, but cultural and political, should be made indipendents.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Okay-
So independant City states should be things like Corinth, Argos, Syracuse...Tell me who else!!! Playable ones should just be Sparta and Athens, no? Maybe some more like Syracuse and Thebes...I'll need ideas of who. I'll reactivate culture flips, too. Kryten, couldja consult Xen's first post for a unit request? Thnx. I'll have all this up (hopefully) later today.
So independant City states should be things like Corinth, Argos, Syracuse...Tell me who else!!! Playable ones should just be Sparta and Athens, no? Maybe some more like Syracuse and Thebes...I'll need ideas of who. I'll reactivate culture flips, too. Kryten, couldja consult Xen's first post for a unit request? Thnx. I'll have all this up (hopefully) later today.
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Here are some links to a few historical maps, which may help with the placing of cities and their political allegiances:-
http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2002fall/cc226/PeloponnesianWar.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greece_pelop_war_431.jpg
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~kallet/greece/Map Peloponnesian War.jpg
http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2002fall/cc226/PeloponnesianWar.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greece_pelop_war_431.jpg
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~kallet/greece/Map Peloponnesian War.jpg
Amenhotep7
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Thnx so much, Kryten! It seems u have been a very busy Kryten! I'm tweaking the map as I speak...(Or type? ) I'll need the Epheboi Corps unit from u and also...Does anyone know appropriate techs for the era, or should I set the tech rate so obscenely high that none could research it in 324 turns?
P.S. How fo you lock alliances at the beginning of the scen.???
I'm tweaking the map as I speak...(Or type? ) I'll need the Epheboi Corps unit from u and also...Does anyone know appropriate techs for the era, or should I set the tech rate so obscenely high that none could research it in 324 turns?P.S. How fo you lock alliances at the beginning of the scen.???
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Here's the map. Gimme feedback on the city placement/ what civs should be added/deleted?
I desperately need feedback. w/o feedback, I melt! *gradually turns into pool of water.
I desperately need feedback. w/o feedback, I melt! *gradually turns into pool of water.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
You have to buy a brand new game
Civ3: Conquests has these new features (and more) that can't be done otherwise.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Thought I'd have to...Ah well, I'll get it... How's my map???
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Damn, its a bix file (I guess it would have to be to use a flat map)
Anyway, I can't see it
Someone else will have to give you an opinion.
Anyway, I can't see it
Someone else will have to give you an opinion.
but it needs WAY more cities in Italy, Sicilly, and Asia Minor...it also needs resources and such...the area around Athens is a bit plain for the richest trading center in the world at the time.. I also suggest a hill or two in it vcinity...Athens has rugged feel just put side the city from pictures I've seen, and many features of the city in that time, like the many theatures, and the ever famous Acropolis make ample use of the marble rich hills and such inthe area
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