Poland trad/lib opening discussion

[Casimirsbff]

Hi guys, been lurking here since way back, this is my first post.

I play at immortal or deity level. I sometimes become frustrated with deity level as its so hard. Especially if that damn Alexander or his the zulus are involved. However, with this strategy I find mysekf able to teach them a lesson.

Ive played this strategy for a while and would like to discuss some of its principles as i would like to read other peoples opinions and find out how it can be improved.

I appreciate this idea isnt original, its just my views on some aspects of it.

We all know how powerful he is. Im a big tradition fan. I find with liberty my growth is poor in the medieval era. Maybe its also because im not much of one for domination. With poland though you can go to collective rule and still finish tradition before that key opening of rationalism.

So what ive started doing now is actually opening tradition then going to collective rule. I find this bettr that just starting with liberty. That 3 extra culture pays for itself I think. Plus I often find that I go collective rule straight away and pop a couple of culture ruins I can have that settle too fast for me, ive not cleared barbs or removed luxurys or whatever. Sounds crazy right?

I like to play pangea (spelling?) maps and my build order is
Scout - monument - shrine (terrain dependent) - worker

I dont like waiting that long for a worker so I do get involved in some slavery, not loads though, I havent acquired some peoples talent for it. More practice needed.

I like to build a settle straight after collective rule. I build a library in the strongest of my new cities and buy in the other. With this a very early national college can be achieved. Turn 60 is good, turn 70 okay.

I work a production tile for my 2nd or 3rd tile in the city building a library, I sell horses for 2 gpt each one at a time to afford a library in the other.

In this time ive often built another scout and some archers for defence.

To be continued.

 

[Acken]

You should look here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378

 

[Casimirsbff]

Thanks acken, I believe I have read tommynyts guide and got much of my strategy from it. If it wont cause offence, ill continue to write strategy nonsense anyway.

So after national college im typically faced with a tough decision. Wonder or army. Well ofcourse neughbours can make this decision for me. If i see a large army nearby i will build composites, possibly with building a barracks first.

If my area seems peaceful another option I often consider is the oracle. Sometimes this means a 'spare' policy before rationalism. Often I like to open the peity tree. This speeds up shrines amd temples and I can quickly build the grand temple for a good base of faith without sacrificing too many turns.

I beeline education and look to get it around turn 100, later on immortal. Its nice to buy a university but I rarely have the money for it and would rather ally a city state with a big army between me and my local warmonger. Still, I cancel whatever im doing and build unis in all my cities. I then spend a good chunk of time deciding how best to work as many science specialists as possible whilst still growing my cities. A compromise is reached and is re-assessed with every population growth and the opening of secularism.

At this point ive already had a writers guild in my capital for a while. I work or dont work the specialists depending on predicted timings. I want a policy straight after I enter renaissance era. This may mean I have to take the fastest route which is acoustics. It may be that I have cities next to montains. I can take the writers out to slow down that policy and head up to astronomy instead. This deoends on my predicted need for crossbowmen. When making plans I try to account for the increased tech speed of universities and any potential cultural city state alliances.

To be continued.

 

[phillipwyllie]

I've been playing Poland a lot recently but with a different strategy where I would only get the free worker then complete Tradition and opening Commerce with a view to unlocking Mercantilism before entering the Renaissance era which I beeline. This means a 3 city NC with a view to settling a 4th after my cap has it's university rush bought, but other things usually get in the way...

I've tried the free settler and free worker approach with a BO of scout->scout->worker->granary->shrine->Pyramids->library->Oracle->NC->comp bow with the BO in expos monument->library(rush buy in weakest expo)->comb bow->granary->caravan->shrine. When I'm able to start the NC I do leaving the Oracle until after. This leaves me with 4 early cities and a cap at pop 6-7 when I start the settler building, although a later than usual NC if I can't rush buy a library or 2.

I've had 2 tries at the second strategy and the first I didn't research Construction after Theology, lets just say it ended soon after when Denmark marched and my archers didn't do squat.
The second I did research Construction after Theology and built more comp-bows than was needed. This proved useful when my "friend" Songhai plonked a city almost in the heart of my empire, which I soon razed. He even gave me a city in the peace deal which I razed too. With 900 I decided to upgrade my comp-bows and march on Gao, this time with allies. Had I not stupidly agreed to a DOF from Japan who had eliminated Songhai I could've erased all my warmonger hate there and then but I'll have to wait 45 turns for that...

The guide mentions researching Construction after Theology if needed, I'd say it's always needed.

 

[joncnunn]

Tall Tradition works extremely well for every civ in Civ V, including Poland.
Almost all of the civs in Civ V, can do wide liberty as well, including Poland. (Venice can't self found any other cities & India would find it almost impossible to self found 5 or 6 cities in the time that a Liberty wide guide states to do so.)

Poland has more flexibility with social trees than anyone else. If playing anyone other than Poland, after you finish your first tree (whichever it is), you need to move forward to a later era one to cherry pick a couple while waiting for Rationalism. Poland actually has time to complete two trees in their entirety without delaying Rationalism at all.

 

[Memoryjar]

An alternetive, with good production in Warsaw, it's a Full Tradition / Patronage to Scholastism or/and Commerce to Mercantislm. It ensures you good science and cheap buildings.

 

[phillipwyllie]

I've been playing this strategy a lot now and have found there are 2 early pitfalls.

1.)4 cities before your NC will possibly delay it a lot. It's not always possible to rush buy your libraries. I find a 3 city NC/Oracle approach better as after Oracle you can pump out your 3rd settler.
2.) Settling 4 cities early will anger some civs and that means an early DOW or 2. It's no fun being gang-banged by Japan and the Huns. Follow hint #1 and your expos can build comp-bows before you anger anyone.

 

[Strategist83]

Mixing Liberty and Tradition is generally a bad idea. There are definitely times when it is feasible or indeed becomes necessary to do so (mostly when having made a mistake, such as having gone Liberty early but realizing one won't be able to make full use of it due to too much land having been grabbed early or a lack of luxuries) but mostly you will see poor results compared to having completed just one of the trees immediately then moved on to one of the other trees. The reason why it mostly doesn't work is that Tradition and Liberty are each other's antithesis so you are evolving your empire in two opposing directions at once. Moreover, both trees are especially strong in the very early game and get relatively weaker the later you are (aka, they are both 'openers') so picking policies from both is just too much - you're getting too many opening policies at the cost of some of the longer-term ones from other trees.

I only skimmed your OP but it sounds like you're picking policies for Liberty down to Collective Rule for the free Settler(s). This is probably the worst way to go about it if you want to mix these trees. The free Settler is very powerful indeed but, again, much more so if you get the policy very early. Settlers are only very expensive during the Ancient Era, they can be much better afforded by a Classical Era economy so having spent policy points on these policies is simply not worth the boost it represents - Collective rule is worth 106 + ~40 per extra Settler trained in the capital - this is simply not worth driving up the policy costs over if you're unlocking it this late. The bigger problems, though, is you simply aren't going to have enough happiness to make full use of Collective Rule if you went Tradition first as well, and you also risk most of the worthwhile land having been already taken if the policy comes this late. Considering how you could instead have been deep into the Patronage or even Commerce trees at this point you're really losing out.

Liberty is best used when:

1) There is an abundance of luxuries ("luxuries" can here include Horses/Ivory, for the Circus)
2) There are many trading partners (who are not hostile), allowing for even more happiness
3) You value grabbing land early at the cost of postponing national wonders

- otherwise, you should mostly stay away from it, especially the left side (Collective Rule route) of the tree. It is feasible to go into Liberty even late in the game if your empire grew very large, but then you should mostly focus on the right side policies.

 

[klaskeren]

Mixing Liberty and Tradition is generally a bad idea.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Mixing Liberty and Tradition is generally a bad idea.

Unless you're Poland, in which case rulebook -> window.

Which is the entire point of playing Poland. If you pick them at the main menu, you're basically saying, 'I want to get a huge empire going early and as a result I'm going to pick the civ with the UA that permits doing so.'

 

[phillipwyllie]

Also once you research Metallurgy you don't need to build Archaeologists, you can just steal them. Protected by a unit, no problem for winged hussars.

 

[Shark Diver]

Also once you research Metallurgy you don't need to build Archaeologists, you can just steal them. Protected by a unit, no problem for winged hussars.

I've played Poland on Deity once. Steamrolled to a DV because I beelined to WHussars. Those things are so powerful for so long I fail to see why you wouldn't want them as early as possible no matter what type of victory one wanted. You can always catch up on tech later. I won't say it was easy, because I'm a newbie to Deity, but if I can do it……..

As for social policies, I keep reading that some like Commerce for Poland. Poland can complete Liberty OR Tradition, and then also Honor (which results in much more gold than Commerce ever will, even if one is playing semi-peacefully (which I don't know why you would with what may be the best single unit in the game). Can someone please make a case for Commerce as Poland?

 

[Strategist83]

I don't like the Commerce tree much (easily weakest policy tree IMO) but I think that's mainly due the shortcomings of the AI - it would be much better in multiplayer. In singleplayer, due to how strong city-state allies are, Patronage is mostly preferable as it is so incredibly easy allying most of them through quests and whatnot, and the AI will never try to take that advantage away from you by conquering your CS. In multiplayer, things aren't aren't so restricted by the awful AI programming (with every single civ on the map denouncing you, declaring war and hating you for 300+ turns if you kill off just a single CS) so there making yourself less reliant on 'external' CS allies is a much better idea. Overall, Commerce gets much better if you are less dominant and/or if your relations with other civs are poor. Commerce is a very good tree for warmongers like Mongolia for that reason. As such, if you play a very aggressive Poland upsetting everybody on the map, Commerce might suit you. Still, that means you are picking the tree out of necessity, not of choice, so it still isn't ideal. Commerce doesn't offer the large culture/faith/growth/diplomacy advantage of Patronage and it doesn't massively boost your like Rationalism - it mainly just lets you convert into at a conversion rate which - while better than normal (especially for the Landsknecht) - is still very poor. Yes, you get no-cost-to-pillage Winged Hussars as Poland but that in itself is not worth picking Commerce for.

Unless you're Poland, in which case rulebook -> window.

Which is the entire point of playing Poland. If you pick them at the main menu, you're basically saying, 'I want to get a huge empire going early and as a result I'm going to pick the civ with the UA that permits doing so.'

I still don't agree. Yes, Poland gives you better social policy flexibility, but what is the best way of making use of that - mixing policies that are mostly antithetical? Hardly. Once again, as I said, you could be deep into the Patronage or even - speaking of which - Commerce trees instead. Tradition/Commerce Poland instead of Tradition/Liberty Poland can building a strong power base (Tradition) then head for the awesome Protectionism final policy from Commerce for unlimited happiness that will permit their world conquest to continue even before Ideologies. Tradition/Liberty would only be better if, after finishing Tradition, there's still tons of land all around you available for settlement in case of which the question becomes: Should you then really have picked Tradition in the first place? Yes, the chance of the land surrounding you remaining unsettled even after finishing a full initial tree clearly increases with Poland's increased policy rate, but they precisely have a host of better options for that reason - Liberty/Patronage or Liberty/Piety for unlimited happiness and therefore city count or Liberty/Commerce for city spam AND world conquest all seem like better options in that scenario. Ultimately, I think this is really about the fact that many will insist on picking Tradition first, no matter what.

 

[budweiser]

I played Poland for a science win last night. I went Trad>Pat>Rat. Still had tons of policies after I put 6 into Order. It was ridiculous.

 

[Acken]

Tradition and liberty aren't antithetical. It's true they are both early game bonus though.

 

[GoStu]

I've tried Tradition/Liberty blends - not a fan. The problem is that both trees are aimed at helping you with early-game success; especially Liberty. The free Worker and free Settler from Liberty are both good... at the time that a typical straight-Liberty play will unlock them.

Hybridizing over to Tradition pushes getting one of the freebie things back. By the time you get around to the free Settler (or Worker, if you went that way) it's not really worth all that much. A free Worker is almost meaningless when one of your cities can pop another Worker out in 5-6 turns, or that there's a few poorly-defended workers in the neighboring kingdom. Tradition is less guilty of this as its free Culture buildings can be later buildings, but it's still worse for the tree to delay the free Aqueducts. The free 2 Food and 10% Growth for the capital, and 15% Growth for your first 4 cities are again best taken early; they are much less attractive if picked up later.

Hybridizing and NEVER finishing the later policies (I.E. Tradition, then right side of Liberty) is still suboptimal as the finisher bonuses are like a 2-for-1 deal on policies. I almost never sink policies in a tree I don't intend to finish.

 

[klaskeren]

I've tried Tradition/Liberty blends - not a fan. The problem is that both trees are aimed at helping you with early-game success; especially Liberty. The free Worker and free Settler from Liberty are both good... at the time that a typical straight-Liberty play will unlock them.

Hybridizing over to Tradition pushes getting one of the freebie things back. By the time you get around to the free Settler (or Worker, if you went that way) it's not really worth all that much. A free Worker is almost meaningless when one of your cities can pop another Worker out in 5-6 turns, or that there's a few poorly-defended workers in the neighboring kingdom. Tradition is less guilty of this as its free Culture buildings can be later buildings, but it's still worse for the tree to delay the free Aqueducts. The free 2 Food and 10% Growth for the capital, and 15% Growth for your first 4 cities are again best taken early; they are much less attractive if picked up later.

Hybridizing and NEVER finishing the later policies (I.E. Tradition, then right side of Liberty) is still suboptimal as the finisher bonuses are like a 2-for-1 deal on policies. I almost never sink policies in a tree I don't intend to finish.

with +3 culture from tradition, going to liberty settler is almost as fast as directly going to settler with liberty, you then get your cities up faster than tradition, and grow your cities faster than liberty, and get better production than tradition, and more happiness than liberty. Its just something quite different, and a way to harvest all the goodies with a slight delay. Oracle is a really important wonder to get with this strategy though. on quick it works even better since culture gains from social policies is not scaled to speed.

 

[JWideman]

I gotta go with the criticism of Trad/Lib as well. I'm using the guide as mentioned above and it feels like I've fallen behind. Then again, the guide is for a peaceful game, and I have Mongols and Egpyt as neighbors, so I've had to take a detour to get winged hussars.

 

[neilkaz]

Immortal level player here and big fan of Trad/Lib mix if one follows Tommynt's guide but of course, having nice neighbors is helpful.

 

[Iberian]

This strategy work well for domination games. You will eventually need to finish that right side of liberty to get the happiness. Having both tradition and liberty results in a lot of great cities. Normally you have to burn a lot of good cities to keep happiness in check. I like to keep them for ensuring I can win whatever VC I choose instead of being locked in to Domination and finding a runaway and having to tediously blast through with artillery vs an AI that should have won instead of sitting on 20k gold.