Possible deals with Aloha

[Theoden]

The recent chat opened up lots of possibilities.

Techwise we have alphabet (429) and mysticism (71), while they have math (357), hunting (57) and metal casting (643) and also Sailing in 4 turns.

The deals mentioned/proposed were:
-mysticism for hunting
-alphabet+mysticism for math+sailing
-CoL+mysticism for MC
-CoL for math+sailing+hunting
-something that involves alpha from us and MC from them
-a big deal trading almost every tech possible, including a clause about not trading with 3rd parties
-a science alliance

I'm leaning to the "one big deal" proposal, as well as some sort of science alliance so we'll be on the right side of a 2 vs 2 vs 1.

For now we've sort of agreed to try researching different techs which is a good start for a science alliance and a big tech swapping deal.

So, how shall we proceed with these options?

 

[dutchfire]

The deals mentioned/proposed were:
-mysticism for hunting not exactly a big deal, but I wouldn't mind
-alphabet+mysticism for math+sailing do we need math badly enough to trade away alpha?
-CoL+mysticism for MC interesting, certainly if we can sell them poly and priesthood too, for example for sailing
-CoL for math+sailing+hunting
-something that involves alpha from us and MC from them we don't really need MC
-a big deal trading almost every tech possible, including a clause about not trading with 3rd parties This would be best IMO. With an ally we could both grow stronger.
-a science alliance eventually

 

[1889]

I really like the sound of a big trade with the clause that we can't trade the new techs with other civs. So with this sort of deal trading Alphabet would be alright by me. But in any case we get a better deal by trading it away at some point rather than making them research it themselves

This will require a few turns to complete as we gift each other the necessary prereqs.

I don't want to get into an open ended alliance, because it has to end at some point when we try to beat each other. We can however make short term deals like you study x and we study Y then trade.

Finally as I said before this puts Loco on the outside while we safe from attack from our temporary ally. A great time to pull ahead through conquest.

What techs exactly would we trade though?

 

[1889]

We also have literature and in about 12 turns we will have finished Masonry and Civil Service which allows us to easily trade for everything they have and still be in the tech lead with a Great Library (almost half done by then) and a few great scientists not too far away for academies or more free techs.

Let’s try to keep this projected superiority under covers until we can seal a deal.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I really like the alliance idea. Especially with Dave McW still in the game.

 

[dutchfire]

What about trying to get them to research Machinery while we do Civil Service, to get Macemen?

 

[Theoden]

It seems we all agree that one big deal would a good trade. We probably shouldn't trade away alpha before the big deal. As for an alliance I think it depends. I imagine it would just be about coordination of research and about who we won't trade with.

What techs exactly would we trade though?

Something along the lines of alpha, CoL, myst and something else (literature perhaps?) for MC, math, sailing and hunting. And add in another tech from either side to make sure the beaker costs are reasonably equal.

I like the idea of a machinery-civilservice swap, if they can get machinery soon enough it could be incorporated in the big deal as well.

 

[DaveShack]

I understand being uneasy about getting out of a long term deal. Such a deal will go through cycles of which team owes the other at any given point in time. We can keep a running total of which has received more value, and just refrain from passing a tech if it will put the total too far off balance.

The end of such an agreement can go 5 ways (the other 3 ways are unimportant -- both die, creditor dies, end agreement when equal).

1. The team who have received more value (and thus owes the other) can pay off the difference in some way and end the deal peacefully. Or not pay it off and risk the creditor team might declare war in response.
2. The team who have given more value can end the agerement peacefully and effectivly gift the difference in beakers.
3. The team who have received more can declare war and stiff the other team.
4. The team who have given more can declare war and absorb the loss.
5. The team who owes can get wiped out by another team, and the creditor team doesn't get to file an insurance claim.

Any MP alliance is a gamble the other player/team is honorable. If they are and there is benefit for us, the alliance is a good idea. If they're not honorable or the agreement doesn't have benefit for us, then it is a bad idea.

I think it's a good bet and we should ease our way into a long-term agreement.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Indeed, and judging by the current stage of the game and the distance between civs, it's going to be a very long time before we even need to consider getting out of the alliance. For now, best to just act under the assumption that it is semi-permanent. (Personally, I feel that if you don't trust your friends, they won't trust you in return... so the best way to make friends is to be friendly ourselves. )

By the way, I actually feel that Metal Casting would be very nice for us. Forges are quite excellent buildings, giving both the production boost and the spot for an Engineer specialist (the best specialist IMHO). Plus we might have a shot at the Colossus, not a bad wonder at all (although we shouldn't rely on that).

I say go for a big "mutually beneficial" all-in-one trade. Just make sure that the beakers are kept in relative balance between our two civs.

 

[Theoden]

Indeed, and judging by the current stage of the game and the distance between civs, it's going to be a very long time before we even need to consider getting out of the alliance. For now, best to just act under the assumption that it is semi-permanent. (Personally, I feel that if you don't trust your friends, they won't trust you in return... so the best way to make friends is to be friendly ourselves. )

That's my thoughts as well, especially if we are going to attack Loco first.

By the way, I actually feel that Metal Casting would be very nice for us. Forges are quite excellent buildings, giving both the production boost and the spot for an Engineer specialist (the best specialist IMHO). Plus we might have a shot at the Colossus, not a bad wonder at all (although we shouldn't rely on that).

We should probably forget about Colossus, as Aloha told us they were planning on building it (so they're most likely building the prerequisite forge right now).

 

[1889]

The large deal will take some time to complete as we have to first trade all the necessary prerequisite techs.

So let’s tell Aloha the we would like to do this large trade that will bring us both up to almost the same level, although over all the trade will be as equal in beakers as possible. Individual trades may be slightly uneven as we will have to trade prerequisite techs first. Next turn we can begin our long journey of friendship by trading Mysticism(71) for Hunting(57).

 

[DaveShack]

I agree (10).