Possible non-cheating explanation for AI Galleys

[cephyn]

Some have complained about galleys traversing the ocean and finding places they shouldnt -- well, I have a *possible* explanation:

I was playing today, on a continent shared with the Romans and the Zulu (man i hate them, but thats another thread...!)

Anyway, the continent is basically a long horizontal oval. Im on the far left, zulu in the middle, romans on the right. I had a galley on "E" which had sailed around to the Roman side. Caesar, upset at my presence, demanded my galley get out of his territory. I agreed, and my troops were moved automatically.

My galley was warped across about 10 - 12 ocean squares to an uninhabited, unexplored island! Now, since we know the AI shows wanton disregard for territory, Im sure they do it to each other as well. And sometimes, their troops get moved automatically...across ocean...hence, the AI sometimes 'seems' to know where new stuff they shouldnt know about is -- not because they cheated by sailing unpenalized across ocean, but because they got warped there by a quirk of the game.

Thoughts?

 

[Shaitan]

That could definitely account for some of it. I've never had a big problem with AI galleys popping up since I do the exact same thing in most games. When the local coast and seascape is mapped, I put the galleys on suicide runs for other territory. Sometimes they make it. It's only a chance (a big chance mind you) not a certainty that a galley will go down in treacherous waters.

 

[simwiz2]

if that is what caused it, then i think it whould be fixed, possibly by making borders such that when you attempt to enter, something like this should show up:

Sir, we do not have a ROP or War declaration on the <civ>.

(*) Cancel Action <default>
(*) Declare War <with a confirmation pop-up>
(*) Ask for ROP <goes to negotiations with ROP set up if possible>
(*) Ask for Passage <allows this unit to enter, without a ROP. the AI can accept or decline depending on unit type, relations, etc.>


This would fix the teleporting-units problem, and close a major possible MP exploit.

 

[Dralix]

Or, if I understand the problem correctly, a simpler fix would be to return the ship to the nearest explored friendly or neutral costal square.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Dralix
Or, if I understand the problem correctly, a simpler fix would be to return the ship to the nearest explored friendly or neutral costal square.

That would fix this and another similar exploit. You can land troops with settlers on an AI civ's territory. When he orders you out your units are transported to the nearest neutral territory either in uncontrolled territory inside his overall nation or clear across his nation to the far border.

 

[Marzipan]

Yes that sounds very likely. The same thing happened to a galley of mine last week, and I even posted a screen shot showing the galley at the new island with no path leading to it. You can see it in this thread.

 

[BridgeBoy]

for what it's worth, I have followed an AI egyptian team of Galley and Caravel (or Frigate) across about eight squares of ocean with one of my battleships. I guess that means the AI "cheated" or just got real lucky.....

And, I had all the Wonders (playing at Chieftain Level), so they didn't have the Great Lighthouse or anything to improve their chances of not getting lost at sea.

Or, it means that galleys don't get lost if they are with a bigger escort that is supposed to be able to traverse ocean squares?

 

[cephyn]

Originally posted by BridgeBoy
for what it's worth, I have followed an AI egyptian team of Galley and Caravel (or Frigate) across about eight squares of ocean with one of my battleships. I guess that means the AI "cheated" or just got real lucky.....

And, I had all the Wonders (playing at Chieftain Level), so they didn't have the Great Lighthouse or anything to improve their chances of not getting lost at sea.

Or, it means that galleys don't get lost if they are with a bigger escort that is supposed to be able to traverse ocean squares?

Once a civ gets Navigation, ALL vessels for that civ can travel across ocean w/o sinking. So if you had battleships....im pretty sure theyd have navigation by then.

 

[cephyn]

Originally posted by Marzipan
Yes that sounds very likely. The same thing happened to a galley of mine last week, and I even posted a screen shot showing the galley at the new island with no path leading to it. You can see it in this thread.

Exactly Marz! I read that thread too, but since it didnt have the same context, I didnt put 2 and 2 together. But yes!

Anyway, I think this puts to rest a good portion of suspicion that the AI cheats with galleys. I'm still not convinced they put 10s of galleys on suicide runs -- ive played too many archipeligo maps with unexplored islands by the time i get caravels/navigation for that to be likely.

 

[Zouave]

Yes, the DO get "warped".

Once as the Chinese on the Marla Singer accurate world map, I finally got some caravels and started exploring around the Bering Straight.

I ran right into a GERMAN GALLEY!! The idea of a galley handling the fifty foot northern Pacific waves is rather absurd. But when I got a World Map from the Germans there was nothing but blackness between Iceland and that German galley. So it must have been "warped".

BTW, every AI civ knows instantly where there is a new piece of open land (perhaps due to a razed city) and they all immediately send troops and a settler. I am convinced the AI instantly gives a settler to the nearest rival AI military unit as there is no way it could build one and get it there before I did.

Like so much of Civ III, it is a crock.

 

[Northstar5757]

Sorry to say that Ai does cheat with galleys, just use the multi cheat to examine it. Luckily they don't do it constantly so it's not a huge problem. I hate cheats but its a great way to find out in what situations the comp gets the advantage.

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Northstar5757
Sorry to say that Ai does cheat with galleys, just use the multi cheat to examine it. Luckily they don't do it constantly so it's not a huge problem. I hate cheats but its a great way to find out in what situations the comp gets the advantage.

Be more specific, please. In what way do they cheat? I´ve played a few games with the multi-trick and saw no cheating. The warping is a bug, which is in no way limited to the AI. No way you can call that AI cheating.

 

[Mapache]

A.I. Galleys do not traverse more than 2 ocean tiles when they don't have the technology. Sometimes however the Galleys know where the New World is which makes traversing sea and ocean tiles less risky. The Human player has to sail into the fog.
I haven't experienced a transatlantic jump caused by the removal of my trooops.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Hurricane


Be more specific, please. In what way do they cheat? I´ve played a few games with the multi-trick and saw no cheating. The warping is a bug, which is in no way limited to the AI. No way you can call that AI cheating.

Using muli, I tracked an AI Galley (the civ had Lighthouse) for three moves across ocean tiles. That is starting coast, ending ocean, endiing ocean, ending ocean, ending sea. If my Galley end in ocean for 3 turns, it sinks!

And no, Astronomy wasn`t round yet.


I also think the remove-troops thing is strange (see here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18649 ) and it does explain some of the strange things - but the higher the level the more often do AI "wonders" happen

 

[dunk]

I followed a galley for about 7 to 8 turns travelling through all ocean squares. I did this without cheating. I used a galleon and simply followed it.

My galleys sink in the ocean squares about 80 - 90% of the time.

I've never had a computer player plop armies on me from across the ocean.

 

[Rowain deWolf]

Originally posted by Killer


Using muli, I tracked an AI Galley (the civ had Lighthouse) for three moves across ocean tiles. That is starting coast, ending ocean, endiing ocean, ending ocean, ending sea. If my Galley end in ocean for 3 turns, it sinks!

And no, Astronomy wasn`t round yet.

Not necessary a cheat i have this Luck with Galley sometimes myself in a Game; My record till now are 5 consecutive turns(without Lighthouse) on ocean. So most of my exploring galleys sink but those that survive are usally worth the risk.

Cheers
Rowain

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by dunk
I followed a galley for about 7 to 8 turns travelling through all ocean squares. I did this without cheating. I used a galleon and simply followed it.

My galleys sink in the ocean squares about 80 - 90% of the time.

I've never had a computer player plop armies on me from across the ocean.

Seems you didn´t read more than two posts back. Cephyn already reminded of the fact that all vessels safely can move on ocean tiles as soon as the civ has Navigation (which I guess they had since you cruised around with a Galleon).

To Killer: like Rowain deWolf, I also make suicide moves with my Galleys all the time, and surviving 3 turns in a row is nothing unusual.

 

[Park Ranger]

Originally posted by cephyn


Once a civ gets Navigation, ALL vessels for that civ can travel across ocean w/o sinking.

Just to clarify, so new players aren't confused (another reply mentions Astronomy, which does nothing for boats AFAIK):

Navigation: allows safe travel in SEA squares for all naval units.
Magnetism: Allows safe travel in OCEAN squares for all naval units.

Don't send caravels and galleys into oceans until you have magnetism, unless you're willing to roll the dice.

EDIT: According to the manual (p.96), Astronomy allows TRADE across sea, both Navigation and Magnetism allow TRADE across ocean. So the manual may be a bit misleading.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Hurricane


To Killer: like Rowain deWolf, I also make suicide moves with my Galleys all the time, and surviving 3 turns in a row is nothing unusual.

Lucky you!
I found that rushing a temple or two increases the chance for survival (reloaded, I admit) but still three in a row is scarce....

 

[Park Ranger]

Originally posted by Park Ranger


Just to clarify, so new players aren't confused (another reply mentions Astronomy, which does nothing for boats AFAIK):

Navigation: allows safe travel in SEA squares for all naval units.
Magnetism: Allows safe travel in OCEAN squares for all naval units.

Seems I'm the only one confused here, everyone else had it right. They key techs, for movement in sea and ocean are Astronomy and then Navigation.


Apologies if I caused problems in anyone's game. (Imagine my own games, me hanging back with my caravels for fear of Poseidon's wrath while the AI scoops all the island territory!!!)