Privateers & Other hidden nationality units

[Xerol]

Not sure if there's a thread about this yet(not on Page 1, at least).

Well, anyway, if you escort a privateer with a unit of your own type, it's a pretty dead giveaway. So, why not prevent privateers(and other hidden-nationality units) from co-occupying a square with other units(that aren't hidden nationality)? Obviously, there'd be a problem with getting out of harbor, although that could probably be made into an exception(pirate ships need to come into port too!).

Also, I'm surprised there isn't a "Short Ideas" thread(sorta like the "Quick Tips" thread in Strategy & Tips).

 

[norwegianviking]

I like that Idea. And I think this will stay on topic, there should be ALOT more hidden nationality units!

 

[Globetrotter]

This is true. Any hidden nationality unit should not be allowed to share another unit's square, unless that unit is hidden too.

Otherwise, you could send a horde of Hidden Nationality units (land units for instance), only accompanied by a worker, and no one will bother you, especially if you have an ROP (for your worker to accomapny the "horde"), otherwise, if you are asked to withdraw and you do so, the worker returns home, but the "horde" remains out there.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I don't think I would allow units to share squares, makes things too complex. What if 2 different civs have hidden units on a square, and a third unit moves in, at war with the first civ, not with the 2nd? This kind of thing would put the onus on the game coders, lots of work figuring out how to allow for all the situations that arise.

That said, I do like the idea of hidden and hidden nationality units. There are a lot of issues to be worked out, for example, how to keep the AI from building tons and sending them at you, when ostensibly the civ leader likes you? Need to be some rules about when HN harrassment can occur, i.e., civ must be furious at you, or you must have just attempted a failed spy mission, or committed ROP rape on another civ, etc. The player must also be limited in building these somehow, maybe a good way would be to link the number allowed to number of cities, as with Armies. You could have only 1 Spy or 1 HN guerilla for every 10-15 cities. They should cost several gold per turn in maintenance also.

Have to code the AI not to automatically know where the hidden spies are, and figure out a way to let it do periodic searches, NOT based on gold.

I would like to see spy units back in Civ4, with less function than the civ2 units. Disallow plant nuke, except for some governments. Propaganda attempts would make the city a barbarian city, not give it to you. The barbarian city would simply fortify all its units, daring somebody to come and take it. No more Steal Plans for worldwide disposition of enemy troops, spy must get next to a city and Steal Plans for that city and perhaps a couple more around it. Steal Technology would be done by the spy unit, only allowed in cities with libraries or the capitol. Some other things the spy could do: Start Riot - make a city riot for 2 turns. Sabotage Military - freezes all military units in a city for 2 turns, based on destruction of needed military supplies - horse fodder, gunpowder, fuel, what have you. Things like destroy improvements I would disallow for spies, best handled through war, or perhaps terrorism? Also, might be neat if spies could assassinate specialists in a city, to screw up celebrations, corruption, etc., sort of like Poison Water Supply, but with specific targets. Some of these abilities would come with discovered technologies.

 

[sir_schwick]

Actually the main deterrent to hidden units are these.
1) Somebody has to support them and that somebody is you.
2) They would not be as strong as normal units of the time. The main advantage is waging covert war while still being a trading partner. These units would then set up puppet governments secretly controlled by you in captured cities. You coudl do an 'investiage rebels' mission to find out who controls the rebels.

Thus a lot of the game would be warfare through proxy units while normal trade occured.

Also, some spy functions.
Establish Recon(Uses Units) - You can view what is happening on the city screen as long as you can remain in contact with the spy somehow(roads to harbours to airports, etc.).
Locate Improvement(Uses unit until improvement is destroyed) - Allows your artillery to aim at specific improvement because its exact coordinates are laid out and spotting is done by the spy.
Open The Gates(Requires city needs entertainers to maintain order) - This costs gold dpending on how many citizens are happy or content and culture. Negates city or city wall defense bonus.
Assassinate General(Experience determines success) - Keeps selected unit from moving/bombarding/attacking for one turn.
Support Rebels - This takes away an unhappy face from the city, but generates a rebel unit which tries to take the city right then. Costs a little gold and is mostly a good way to weaken a cities defenders before attacking.
Support Terrorists - This causes and incident which reduces war weariness against who you decide should be responsible for the bombing. Very useful for supporting a war an opponent has or your own.
Steal Scientists - This spy will find a random scientist who knows a technology you do not have. It takes approximately five to ten turns until the defection and materials needed can be collected. Chance of discovery of defection during those turns. Harder to steal from library or university you already hit.
Establish Black Market Liason(city that has desired resource;Uses Spy) - This is a very risky mission. Your spy contacts someone who can get you large amounts of a resource the civ refuses to sell. One, it is very expensive and you cannot negotiate on their rates. Also, each city besides the corrupt one the resource must travel through, especially border cities, increases the chance detection considerably. However, it may give you access to that Oil you really need.

Spies would not be built, they would be automatically created by an INtelligence Agency(or what should be a much earlier equivalent) maybe once every four turns. That means they cannot be spammed and their use is strategic. Maybe your Palace produces a lsightly worse version and certain wonders or buildings add to ti.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Some good ideas, Sir Schwick, I especially like the Black Market idea, would be very useful if resources are mined and used/traded in discrete units as I and others have suggested.

I have to admit I really like the idea of a moveable spy, though. These guys are just plain fun. It would be necessary to make sure you couldn't do the kind of damage with them that you could in Civ2, though. Limit "Plant Nuke" as suggested above, this attack should be very expensive too. Allow bribing of units when other Civ's government is ONLY in Despotism or Anarchy. No bribing cities to get them under your control, period, the idea of making them 3rd party rebels is good though. Only works on cities a minimum distance from the enemy capital.

Maybe for the Steal Plans function, this idea would work: The spy has to do it to a city, and you get a complete view of all units as now. BUT: this action is what determines the military strength you see on the Military Advisor screen, and does NOT update until you use Steal Plans again.

I would have some stuff still available through the Embassy screen, Investigate City, Bribe Scientist for tech being researched and turns to completion, Civ-wide happiness listing, etc. In war, as now, you would lose all this stuff, but you spies could still sneak in and perform all these functions, plus their additional actions. I find that losing your spy now during war if you fail a mission (e.g. expose enemy spy) is too unrealistic, it cuts you off from too much info during wartime. There is plenty of espionage going on in war IRL.

 

[Tholish]

Hidden Nationality units can exist in the same tile with Regular units because they are simply disavowable. Drake was a privateer, though everybody knew he was English, becauase the queen could disavow that he worked for her. Hidden Nationality units are private corporate entities, like the Free Companies of the hundred years war, or modern terrorists, which do the work of a nation without actually being direct government agents. It is not unbelievable that a mercenary unit could leave the camp of an army it was "stacked" with, capture a nearby worker crew, then the leader of that army could claim "that blasted mercenary, always off doing his own thing," thus staving off an international incident, without ending the cold war.

Hidden Nationality units are something that worked really well with Civ3 and should definitely be kept in Civ4.