Privatized Research

[Turtleneck]

Well I doubt much of a private sector exists in despot, communist, fascist gov'ts, etc., so why not make the privatization of research a small wonder that is only buildable after a certain age and government is in power because there really were instances of king declaring the court scientists to research something, such as a "potion of immortality" in China which actually ended up as the creation of gunpowder.

 

[dh_epic]

There's actually a huge private sector in Fascist governments. But wealth quickly consolidates, and there's little respect for human rights or the environment. Government cooperates with these wealthy people to bust unions and remove any safety guidelines.

At least that's what happened 3/4 century ago. Not that it's necessarily built into the Fascist ideology.

 

[brianshapiro]

dhepic.

but labor unions had representation in the fascist corporate council, along with corporations. the idea was for the state to represent the whole of the nations interests.

i didnt study the history of it in detail so i dont know if things like you said occurred. but i know about the basis of the governments, and have read mussolini's writings

 

[dh_epic]

Technically, Fascism isn't concerned about crushing socialists, nor about ethnic xenophobia or anything like that. But historically, Fascist governments did a lot of union busting whenever the workers made any kind of demands. The management and the owners benefitted.

Wealth concentrated into the hands of the few tended to favor the dictator. They put their money behind the Fascist political parties.

In fact, even multinationals that had their headquarters in Democratic countries tended to be pretty favorable to Hitler. Hitler created order and no worker dared protest their working conditions or make higher demands of the company they worked for. There was a lot of money to be made in Fascist Germany. IBM made huge money from the computer systems used in the holocaust. Corporations are by design indifferent to anything but profit.

 

[rhialto]

...There was a lot of money to be made in Fascist Germany. IBM made huge money from the computer systems used in the holocaust...

Got a cite for that? I wasn't aware of there being a computer industry before WW2, which is what makes this line so interesting. What was IBM doing there?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

No site I'm afraid, Rhialto, but it is true that the IBM company made huge profits in Nazi Germany by selling its punch-card system-a system which was used to keep track of Jews and other enemies of the State!
You might also be interested to know that the Coca-Cola company also profited during the Nazi Regime, as they sold Fanta to Nazi troops. Of course, Fanta was especially created for the Nazi market, as Coca-cola thought it might be bad PR for them if bottles of the 'all-American' Coke were found in the hands of Nazi Stormtroopers !!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, and here are some websites!

IBM and Nazi Germany:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/27/print/main504730.shtml

http://www.boingboing.net/2002/03/27/ibm_and_nazi_germany.html

http://www.jewishbookmall.com/shop/asinsearch_0609607995.html

http://www.ethicalmatters.co.uk/articles.asp?itemID=178

http://www.acsa.net/ibm_and_hitler.htm

As for the Fanta issue, Fanta was in fact invented by the Owner of the leading Coca-Cola bottling plant in Germany (Max Keith), after the Third Reich banned all of the essential ingredients needed for making Coke. However, Keith WAS a member of the Nazi bureaucracy-where he lobbied hard to remove the ban on Coke products. Needless to say, though, that had the Nazi's not banned Coke, Coca-cola would almost certainly have sold its product to the Nazis throughout the course of the war. Here is a website on the subject:

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/fanta.asp

Ultimately, corporations don't care WHOM their profits come from-be they young Kids in Britain or Europe, or the leaders of tyrannical dictatorships such as China or Equatorial Guinea!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

Fancy that. Punch cards! It all makes sense now. The idea of major western corporations hand in hand with nasty regimes didn't surprise anywhere near as mich as the seeming anachronism of prewar computers.

 

[dh_epic]

Yeah, sorry about that, I was a bit misleading about the idea of PCs or even supercomputers. It was largely punchcards.

Probably the biggest contraversy is whether IBM knew what the punchcards were being used for. Obviously some people are heavily critical of corporate power and claim that IBM knew but continued to do business with the Nazis anyway. IBM executives to this day, naturally, swear that while they did business with the Nazis, they had no knowledge of what the actual system/numbers/punchcards meant.

But yeah, the only place you won't find multinational power are where countries have been extremely protectionist, let alone planned economies (e.g.: communist, public ownership type states). It's one of those age old questions, you're kind of damned if you do or damned if you don't.

But man, what I'd give for Civ to let me make choices about how to handle that kind of thing.

 

[CurtSibling]

Awful idea, kokoloko. First, I'd like to say that I'm against pursuing realism in Civ4 at the expense of gameplay. If you haven't already, you should read "Less Realism", which was started by warpstorm. It may be dead, but most of the views expressed are still good, IMHO.

Your idea adds little substantial improvement to the research concept in Civ. IRL in the United States, all libraries, most universities, and nearly all research labs were built and maintained by the government. I also believe it's the same for many other nations and their governments. Therefore Sid Meier represented this fairly accurately in Civ.

Research subsidies? You can already do this by adjusting your research slider.

Simultaneous research? That's no good when you can only choose among eight or so techs at a time (check the tech tree in the appropriate Civ game). Think of what it would do to exchanges with other tribes: no incentive to trade techs since you can research two or more techs at a time.

As usual, Aussie_Lurker, I think your idea stinks. (No personal offense. If someone asked me whether you were my twin, I would say, "Yeah, fraternal. Not.") Again, I'm against complicating Civ for the sake of realism.

I like Aussie_Lurker's idea.

I am against making CIV4 into a mindless AOE-clone for the sake of 'kewl fun'...

 

[Jon Shafer]

Hmmm, a bit off-topic fellas...

 

[dh_epic]

Just saying that privatization of research is pretty conceivable under the fascist government. At least some research.

An economy mobilized for war tends to intervene in research for some ends.

 

[brianshapiro]

dhepic,

I know its true that corporations especially in germany profited from fascism. But I'm trying to reconcile what you said, that there was union busting, with the fact that fascism as a model incorporated unions into the governing council (at least in Mussolini's model) in an attempt for the state to represent the whole apparatus of the society.

(Also one should note that in Germany the labor class supported Hitler because he promised to bring the economy out of the gutter)

 

[dh_epic]

I can't really speak on the fact that he involved unions in his governing council. But corrupt dictators can do stuff like that. For example, fire the leading environmental advocates in your government, and replace them with "environmentalists" who say "there's no evidence that global warming is actually happening". It's possible that's what Hitler did with some unions, but I can't say for certain.

What I can say for certain is that Hitler depended highly on the capital from leading industrialists, particularly steel, automobiles, and aviation. Any kind of disruption from workers was an unwelcome one, hence they were often crushed, or allowed to be crushed without consequences. I also know for certain that Hitler persecuted members of labor and worker parties, let alone the fact that his party came into power in spite of worker parties.

I'm almost positive that Mussolini had a few antics with terrorizing unions, essentially with thugs.

At any rate, Fascists are pro-capital but anti-labor. They tend to think that wealth is generated by investment, as opposed to work. They encourage a strong private sector. Some people even suggest that it leads to a form of "syndicalism", where prominant corporations can eventually monopolize an industry, and essentially become a state-level power.

I'm not a historian, though. And I actually did quite poor in history in high school

 

[CurtSibling]

Hmmm, a bit off-topic fellas...

The topic is private research - Who went off topic?

.

 

[M37]

Ok how about the following
Privivate recearch is possible
- you set a city to *build* private recearh and they then convert shiields per tern to beakers per turn.
This allows you to get non-military techs faster.

say its the early moden age and you have riflemen but you want to upgrade them. You've allrady done all the miltary tech but you need plastics to create the new moden rifleman. you *build* plastics recearch. -since plastics is a secondary requirement for moden riflemen -as well as a whole other bunch of stuff you figure its worth it. methwile you can recharch "lazers" as the gov since it is a miltiary tech.

 

[brinko]

please dont consider changing the way techs are earned.
keep it simple silly!
I like them the way they are.

 

[Synergy67]

It's so simple and predictable I think it's boring. It doesn't really capture the diversity and wonder of new discoveries in different parts of the world and how differently cultures evolved because of them. It's the same ultimate path for everyone with the only significant differences being preferred government type.

I agree it should be simple in understanding how to research techs. I think the way techs are traded around is ridiculous and again, boring. A nation doesn't become able or proficient in technology by buying a secret or idea. I don't know what the solution is, but clever minds could get away from the essentially linear tech tree setup and over-trading of technologies and still keep it simple and fun. I would enjoy researching in multiple fields at once with less predictability how long it might take to successfully finish...maybe some factors which could speed up the process or hinder it. Maybe even a nice surprise once in a while when one of my research branches makes a fast new discovery. Trading might be much more dependent on specific knowledge, tech pathways, and perspectives in another nation.

 

[Sandgolem]

How about “you” research the main technologies but the applications that become possible thanks to the new tech are being researched by “private companies”. So you can research for example gunpowder but you don’t immediately get the ability to produce musket men. Then after a few turns somebody (some genius in your empire) discovers the use of gunpowder to make weapons, muskets, and only then you can start producing musket man.
The amount of turns is dependent on how you rule your empire. For example, if you are militaristic you’ll easier discover military applications.

It could also work for upgrades for weapons. For example, you have rifleman and then someone invents automatic guns. You can now upgrade your 3/5 rifleman to a 4/5 rifleman.
It’s just an idea.

 

[ph_173]

getting off subject, I too think that playing as the state and only the state is a good concept. Privatized research, can't happen at the moment in Civ3, because despite what the government says it is all nations are essentially communist, in that the state controls all. they build the factories, assign the mayors, call for revolution...