Pros, Please explain Venice Gameplay

[The_CatSnack]

Not sure what to make of this Civ.. How can a one city civilization compete with the power of multiple city civs especially given the new culture mechanic, the obvious production advantages that come with multiple cities especially in the late game, etc. What possible victory conditions are viable?
Thanks for any insights!

 

[Altisma]

It's not competitive in multiplayer for one so don't ever try it. This is more a early domination civ, you have to conquer players or city states to stay relevant because one city science will be useless and you won't be getting Great Merchants in the first 50 turns so no free city states. When it comes with trade it will be more difficult since your gonna have to conquer trade partners so don't rely on that too much.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Just as in the current iteration, a capital should be able to generate as many great people as a huge empire. Tourism comes from great artists so Venice/OCC should not be at any overt disadvantage.

A capital can also generate an adequate army for global conquest if the player is keeping up with economy and tech, and Venice should be ok as far as the former.

I think the constraints will be workable and fun for the human player. For the AI I expect a lot of getting stomped.

 

[Devell]

You can easily get a GM before turn 50, just tech optics. You could probably get it around turn 35 which is way quicker then I usually get my first settler out. Dont forget you're kicking out GM's faster then everyone else too on account of only having one (main) city. Same with social policies, so you could nab another one from the liberty finisher too. Add these to any cities you conquer and you could very quickly have a nice little empire up and running.

The main thing with Venice though is that they are far from a one city civ. Being able to buy in puppeted cities is huge. Something no one else can do that effectively gives Venice control of its entire empire. Coupled with double trade routes (more gold to spend in puppets) and the overall scarcity of gold for everyone else in BNW and Venice look pretty powerful to me (albeit highly specialized)

I'm hardly a pro, but I'm working on it . Sure someone will correct me if I've got anything wrong/omitted anything.

 

[The_CatSnack]

It just seems that this civ is at way too much of a disadvantage on higher levels or in multiplay as plok pointed out... A civ's UA should serve to differentiate it, not make unviable in certain situations

 

[Bechhold]

Not to mention resources, what about Puppet CS do we have access to trade their unique resources such as Jewelry and Porcelain?

 

[The_CatSnack]

Actually resources is the one thing they will be good at as puppet populations don't require luxuries to be happy so 3 or 4 puppets with 1 or two luxuries should keep a huge capital city happy

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think the power of trade routes will be the issue - particularly domestic trade routes. If it is true that sea trade routes can send 8 food and it's true that you can get 18 trade routes, you can send a lot of food to one city if you want to or you can send production and food or you can send food and get gold internationally or you can get lots of gold internationally. I think its strength is flexibility.

That being said, I do think an archipelago map is key if you're playing multiplayer. The Great Galleass will protect Venice at home. It can get a few cities to fuel its capital simply through Great Merchants. And, if you want, a naval invasion is possible.

 

[Devell]

-SNIP- A civ's UA should serve to differentiate it, not make unviable in certain situations

isn't it just a little bit too early to be ruling them out just now? Given that the game isn't even released yet?
I personally think that Venices UA will do exactly what you want it to.

 

[otaman1]

Playing as Venice, you do not have a choice of producing a settler or get one from the Liberty social policy or from an ancient ruin. Once you have reached Optics, a Great Venetian Merchant will appear near the capital (Venice). Use your Great Merchant to go buy City-States for 1000+ gold (depending on your relations with it). If you're relations are too low, they will not accept. If you're relations are high, they will accept. Capturing other civ's cities is now easier to get without war.

 

[Sir Parsifal]

Not sure what to make of this Civ.. How can a one city civilization compete with the power of multiple city civs especially given the new culture mechanic, the obvious production advantages that come with multiple cities especially in the late game, etc. What possible victory conditions are viable?

First of all, Venice is not a one-city Civilization. It's a multiple city civilization with lots of puppets.
Secondly, it should be able to compete in the culture mechanic because the buildings you can generate Great Artists/Writers/Musician from are National Wonders (1 per civ). You just put them all in your capital, run a trade route from a puppet city to feed them, and you should be able to compete with other civs culturally. Also, you can curate works in puppet cities.
Thirdly, Venice might not have as many production advantages as other civs in the late-game. But when you're playing as Venice, you probably won't be producing things. You'll buy buildings and units instead of building them, because you'll have an extra 9-10 trade routes at 25 to 30 gold apiece.
Of course, all of the above is based on speculation, because I've never actually played as Venice.

Use your Great Merchant to go buy City-States for 1000+ gold (depending on your relations with it). If you're relations are too low, they will not accept. If you're relations are high, they will accept.

I'm fairly sure the process for acquiring a City-State as Venice is a. Send a Merchant of Venice to the city-state of your choice. b. Press the button for converting city-states to Venetian puppet cities. Do you have any sources for the 1000+ gold and need good relations aspects?

 

[otaman1]

I'm fairly sure the process for acquiring a City-State as Venice is a. Send a Merchant of Venice to the city-state of your choice. b. Press the button for converting city-states to Venetian puppet cities. Do you have any sources for the 1000+ gold and need good relations aspects?

No. I'm just guessing how that's gonna be like. I might be off by like 1000000000000000000000000000000000000%

 

[adwcta]

Trade routes are a decent source of science if you're behind. You have double. All those science is going directly to your capital, which will have all of the science buildings and national wonders and presumably be really tall. So, you probably won't be tech leader, at least not until late game (if you go on a buying spree, then add some multipliers on your new-found science w/ RAs, for example), but you also won't be THAT far behind in tech. With the slow pace the AI builds/upgrades units, you'll probably be able to upgrade/buy yours (you have tons of gold) in time to not be behind military-wise.

Also, you acquire cities with more pop than cities you'd build, without having the penalties of happiness or having to buy/build a settler (which together, pretty much equals the value of a GP). I don't see a disadvantage here. You'll be able to get as many cities as you would otherwise. They'll actually be bigger than your cities (assuming you acquire them early-mid game) had you have to build them, and you get an indirect happiness bonus. The disability evens out with the ability in early/mid game. In late game, your ability to peacefully acquire cities with huge populations (and buy science buildings in them) is a huge asset.

That's just science victory, and probably the toughest one to pull off. Culture victory is an obvious one. Money buys great works, and you can pick CSs that have archeological sites to buy. Diplomacy is designed so that anyone can achieve it, and if you're picking your spots and staying out of the way (say, only buying CSs on island chains to maintain good diplo), you'll not only have enough money to ally CSs you don't take over, you'll also have enough gold to bribe civs and their delegates. Domination works the same way as any other domination game, only instead of extra production cities, you have extra gold to purchase those units.

It all looks pretty balanced to me.
I would be amazed if the AI uses this civ well though.

 

[werothegreat]

Playing as Venice, you do not have a choice of producing a settler or get one from the Liberty social policy or from an ancient ruin. Once you have reached Optics, a Great Venetian Merchant will appear near the capital (Venice). Use your Great Merchant to go buy City-States for 1000+ gold (depending on your relations with it). If you're relations are too low, they will not accept. If you're relations are high, they will accept. Capturing other civ's cities is now easier to get without war.

Where are you getting this information?

 

[VainApocalypse]

Not sure what to make of this Civ.. How can a one city civilization compete with the power of multiple city civs especially given the new culture mechanic, the obvious production advantages that come with multiple cities especially in the late game, etc. What possible victory conditions are viable?
Thanks for any insights!

Simple: it's not a one city civ.

It can acquire as many puppets as it likes. This brings in science, culture and gold without the penalties in happiness or policy cost.

On top of that, it'll be sporting around 20 trade routes by the end of the game.

 

[VainApocalypse]

It's not competitive in multiplayer for one so don't ever try it.

I disagree. I think you're underestimating both the utility of puppet empires and of trade routes.

This is more a early domination civ, you have to conquer players or city states to stay relevant because one city science will be useless

"One city science" would be useless, except Venice has double the trade routes, and trade routes leech science. They can stay scientifically relevant just by puppeting city-states (puppets give science too) and sending trade routes to scientifically advanced civs.

They're also not suited to an "early domination." They have no units or bonuses that facilitate sieging or combat on land. They fail utterly at domination. Bringing in tourism with their trade routes would make them much better at cultural victories.

and you won't be getting Great Merchants in the first 50 turns so no free city states.

I don't normally even build a settler in the first 50 turns, so that's hardly a hindrance. Once you do start pumping out merchants though, there's nothing stopping you from getting a dozen puppets without ever going to war.

When it comes with trade it will be more difficult since your gonna have to conquer trade partners so don't rely on that too much.

That's completely unnecessary. You buy city-states and trade with civs. No conquering necessary.

 

[Sprenk]

There are threads devoted to how to win science and culture One City Challenges with various current nation choices at any difficulty level. I don't see why it's so supposed to be so impossible when it's clearly routine already?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Venice is a civ with 2 key changes
1. Great Merchants used to expand instead of Settlers
2. Gold used for primary production instead of hammers

 

[VainApocalypse]

Venice is a civ with 2 key changes
1. Great Merchants used to expand instead of Settlers
2. Gold used for primary production instead of hammers

That's way over simplified.

What about having double the trade routes?

What about the way trade routes bring in science, tourism and spread religion?

What about the fact that they expand with puppets, which makes their culture and happiness play differently?

 

[Dudu42]

Not sure if Venice is that weak.

It seems they're focused in summing huge ammounts of wealth. Really, in Civ V gold is even more important than in previous instalments given that you can buy multiple stuff in a city in a single turn.

And btw, they can buy in puppet cities. And great merchants will be a big deal for them.
This basically means they'll literary buy their way to victory.