Question about trade.

el_kalkylus

Civ2 spearman
Joined
Sep 21, 2001
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460
Location
Sweden
Hello. I was just wondering about how you can get 12 happy citizens in a city of 12 with caravans. I am always playing diety, and I really focused this game to trade with all cities. London traded with about 5 karavans, but still I don't see any sign of more happy citizens. How many caravans must there be?

(I always trade when the cities demand that product the caravan is carrying.)

Thanks.
 
London traded with about 5 karavans, but still I don't see any sign of more happy citizens. How many caravans must there be?
Hey, I see lots of Swedes here. I've got relatives in Uppsala, and visit there sometimes.

Happiness is not related to NUMBER of caravans, but to LUXURIES (and form of gov't/improvemnts). You get luxuries from Elvis' and from setting the tax slider.

In Democracy, a courthouse will force a happy citizen. So will Cure For cancer. With enough trade (natural, plus up to 3 trade routes), and with the Marketplace, Bank, and Stock Exchange... plus a Chapel & temple, it is quite possible to have 12 happy citizens in a size 12 city!

 
city may also have Hanging Gardens which gives 3 happies in the home city.
 
by Smash:

city may also have Hanging Gardens which gives 3 happies in the home city.

Ohmigosh! A good one... I very rarely ever build the HG, but I am being converted to a HG user lately, at least when going for early Republic. Those 3 happy dudes really really help out the SSC (which I give the top priority over anything except the empire's physical survival) while keeping the overall luxuries low.

The HG will also give a happy citizen in each city in the Empire.

It is less obvious, but the actual state of science can affect happiness... it depends on form of Gov't, luxuries, trade routes, and combinations of certain science discoveries and even game turn.

For instance, a city may have 3 trade routes worth 6, 6, and 8 and it is Republic, 30% lux, and neither Navigation nor Invention has been discovered. The city is just balanced with say, 3 happy and 3 red dudes. Let's say the Celts discover Navigation, and the Egyptians get Invention. Well, guess what... your trade routes are worth 3,3,4 now... and that will likely be enought to throw your city into anarchy.

Same scenario, except nav & Inv is not discovered. But you reach game turn 200... bingo. Same effect.

This is because the Civ II program doubles trade route value (and bonuses) before game turn 200, as long as both Inv & Nav are not yet discovered by any civ. And this in turn can affect a city's happiness.

In the case of the thread's topic of 12 cities, all 12 citizens being happy should be easier to achieve just before these milestones, assuming the city has trade routes. And I think it must.

Another thing is size of empire, and form of gov't, but I won't plow down that road now.

I always trade when the cities demand that product the caravan is carrying.)
BTW, that will not affect the recurring trade route value and therfore not affect the city's happiness.

:)

 
Oh sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote the question. I did have a marketplace, and my government was democracy and my luxuries was 40%. London should show signs of more happy citizens with those caravans I think, and I just wondered how many it takes to see some result. The time was about 1 AD, so I didn't have banking.

I was inspirated by a game that Starlifter played (hey, it's you that responded!). You played world map at king-level, and had 9 cities where you (on one island of 3 cities) had built 5 wonders, about 20-40 caravans (or more), harbor, aqueduct, marketplace, courthouse, library, bank, university (in 2-3 cities!!) and some diplomats + you had developed the island (england) with irrigations, mines and roads. Not only that, but you were very developed in science, and had almost every citizens happy in each of the 3 cities (the largest was about 8).

Even though I know you played on king-level and on another map than I do (I play europe-map), I thought I could do somewhat close to what you did if the trading worked. I tried to cut down on building cities in the beginning so that I would have about 10 cities at 1 AD and concentrate on development and trading. I realized if this was going to work, I would need lots of money and some science. This forced me to explore the world and try to find as many "small tribes" (huts?) as possible. Of course I would also get alot of money from other civilizations (demand tribute for my patience), and raving hordes of barbarians.

The result of my efforts (at 1 AD) was that I managed to build 1 wonder (the pyramid), some marketplace, some courthouses, about 10 caravans, and I just got democracy. I had roads that connected the island, and my cities were growing. 2 cities had production of 10 with democracy, while the others were around 4 to 0. It was very difficult to make them happy, so I had to have the Oracle and stop my trading while my money was running out.

Oh, and I never let any cities get civil disorder (it seems you get more waste and corruption if you do).

How do you play this game with trading?!?! I think I reloaded about every turn that game!! Any tactics would be appreciated.
 
Originally posted by starlifter

This is because the Civ II program doubles trade route value (and bonuses) before game turn 200, as long as both Inv & Nav are not yet discovered by any civ. And this in turn can affect a city's happiness.

Wow, I didn't know that. Does that say in the manual? I wish I had bought the game... :)
 
Learn something new all the time...

I always thought courthouses were one of the most useless city developements. I never build then becuase I always go for democracy. I thought courthouses only reduce corruption - which is non-existant in democracy. (So much for realism in computer games...)

So, if a courthose forces a happy citizen in democracy does that in effect take away an unhappy citizen or just turn a contnent citizen happy? Or does it depend on the individual city's circumstances?

Oh Wise Ones, please teach me!

:grad:
 
So, if a courthose forces a happy citizen in democracy does that in effect take away an unhappy citizen or just turn a contnent citizen happy? Or does it depend on the individual city's circumstances?
It will turn one citizen Happy. That is always (or almost always) a content citizen, because of where in the happiness order it is applied. It does not depend on the city, as long as the city is in a democracy.

Naturally, a happy citizen is worth one point on your score, too.

 
Does that say in the manual? I wish I had bought the game...
No, it is not in the manual. The first time I saw anything relating to that was on someone's chart about a year ago. I've seen it alluded to in several other places since then, and some expert players doubtless know about it, too. I'd be willing to be Slow Thinker has something about it in his Great Library, too.

Oh yeah, it is also listed in Prima's guide to Civilization!

BTW, Railroad cuts all trade value to 67%. And Flight cuts the value to 33%. The cuts are not cumulative, but based on the base "regular" value.

Most people should probably not get wrapped around the axle with these kind of details, since basic proper use of trade has a bigger impact on the game. But if you get to where you want to tweak more out of it, then you can do some wiggling as you play the game.

 
Thanks Starlifter. I played this game so long time now, I know a lot of this game, but when it comes to small details, I don't really know that much. And trading is very new to me.

Btw, did you read my post before my last one?
 
by el_kalkylus:

I was inspirated by a game that Starlifter played (hey, it's you that responded!). You played world map at king-level, and had 9 cities where you (on one island of 3 cities) had built 5 wonders, about 20-40 caravans (or more), harbor, aqueduct, marketplace, courthouse, library, bank, university (in 2-3 cities!!) and some diplomats + you had developed the island (england) with irrigations, mines and roads. Not only that, but you were very developed in science, and had almost every citizens happy in each of the 3 cities (the largest was about 8).
Yeah, King level is kind of nice in some ways, but science is slower than at Deity.

The game you're talking about is GOTM 7, on the World Map, starting in England. The early key was founding the northern city on a mine (start mining first), and concentrate on non-military units. My military aspect was (and usually is) so weak that I could not even attack the Celts... which is because I did not want to divert resources to a Catapult at the time. Almost all resources went into developing a "Perfectionist" core empire, instead of rapid expansion to North America and Europe. It makes for a somewhat slower start, but extract a lot of work from what you have. In retrospect, it would likely have been better to take the Celts and all of England.

London was my SSC, and it got the cream of the crop. I rarely build improvements... I buy them. Or more accurately, PRB. PRB=partial rush buy. I cannot afford to have cities sit around and grind out improvements, so I study the shield multiples, and use gold to assist while minimizing shield wastage. The reason for buying, RB and PRB, is math... improvements are by far the cheapest to buy, at only 2 gold per shield. So BUY improvements, esp. if they will help income (like marketplaces)... and BUILD wonders and part of units. BTW, I also count science beakers in early game, and check it all against each other at the end of each turn... in particular the shield balance. Micromanagement is important throughout a game, but esp. in the first half.

Note also that I made some forests from grassland, to increase shield output when I needed. The one near London should have been immediately irrigated to a Buffalo, to get the trade and extra shield. That was a significant mistake that I didn't notice till after I moved my settlers to Europe.

BTW, my SSC was important, but until I was finally able to get KRC, the real key city was the unlikely city of Nottingham...



Note the shield balance, which is altered every turn BTW. And in particular, note the number of shields in the city square (3). It takes at least two settlers to pull that off... one to start the mine, and the other to start the city.

It is far cheaper to PRB and IPRB (Incremental Partial Rush Buy) caravans than buying wonders. Wonders cost 4 gold per shield, and rows of 10 shields for units cost 25, which is 2.5 gold per turn.

Take an example. A city makes 5 shields a turn. How long does it take to make a caravan? Trick question. The obvious is 10 days (50/5=10). But no. My answer (money permitting) is 3 days... Day one=5 shields. day 2= IPRB to 40 (cost 11+25+25+25=86 gold), then two more days. Once Feudalism is discovered, the cost is 41+25+25=91 gold. Of course, let money be your guide. Sometimes you take another 2 days, but save 25 gold. But keep cranking out the caravans from early on, because you can get extra commodoties, which can then be worth a lot more in the future, or even used for wonders (which is a very common thing personally I use them for in early game).


Not only that, but you were very developed in science, and had almost every citizens happy in each of the 3 cities (the largest was about 8).
LOL, actaully, my science was lagging, as I was way too small and kept having to raise gold.

The citizens are usually evenly split between happy and unhappy, with 0% or 10% lux.... but at that point, the Luxuries were 40% to force several cities to start growing. In the SSC (London), folks are very happy because the Hangning Gardens give 3 happy faces. All the other cities in the empire get a further bonus of one happy dude with the HG. It makes growing in an early republic much easier!

A final note... as you can doubtless tell, even at King, you can't get it all; my own emphaisis is usually on the economic improvements and happiness & science wonders. Often, this means leaving many juicy wonders unbuilt, or the AI gets them. In that game when you're talking about, the next big things I was getting ready for was KRC and MC, which will really bust open a game if you do it right.

Well that's an overview of the late-early part of the game strategy I use. There's more nitnoids to it, but that probably hits the highlights ;).

Oh, one more thing. To be fair, my early games and starts are only "good". Other players such as Shadowdale (the best) and Smash and Cactus Pete are much better, and would really recommend emulating them in general. I'm learning from looking at their starts, too. My own best part is late game economics and late game modern combat (which I normally don't see unless I "let" the AI survive). If you want a stong late game Democracy, my strategies in that area are pretty good (for making a huge empire, that is).

So though I'm still working on early game, and am coming to believe that this perfectionist stuff is not the best route to take in the first 100 game turns.

 
Thanks Starlifter. I played this game so long time now, I know a lot of this game, but when it comes to small details, I don't really know that much. And trading is very new to me. Btw, did you read my post before my last one?
You're welcome... Our posts crossed, since I was doing something else in the middle of responding.

You should play the GOTMs. We have some discussion threads (called the "Spoiler" thread) that talks about stuff in the game. I usually put a lot of game detail in the GOTM pages to help anyone who is interested see what's good and bad in the GOTM.

Right now, I've been stuck (just not playing, that is) in GOTM 8 since the bombings. I just have had no real urge to play much for two weeks. :( I post so much stuff there that sometimes they edit and threated to delete my posts, LOL...

 
Thanks for the tips. I like your analysis, it sounds very fullproof. Math is nice, since I am on my third year studying to be a mathematic, so keep talking about math :p.

I will look into more savegames. When I first saw the top players savegames, I thought you were cheating somehow, but now I know it is possible and it is really inspiring.

I don't really find the idea of playing a GOTM game at warlord-level appealing, since the other civs are so weak then, but maybe when the difficulty is harder I will give it a try. But that doesn't stop me from looking at savegames.

The plane crashes really inspired me to play civ2, but I still feel sorry for US. The world feels sorry for US, and all the people that die in the world!!
 
It is far cheaper to PRB and IPRB (Incremental Partial Rush Buy) caravans than buying wonders. Wonders cost 4 gold per shield, and rows of 10 shields for units cost 25, which is 2.5 gold per turn.

I looked into this, adn found it isn't so in my version of civ2 (1.3). For me, units cost 4 gold/shield (including caravans), normal improvements cost 2 gold/shield and wonders cost 4 gold/shield. I have taken under consideration that the city had already produced some shields on the thing it was working on (for example caravan).

Just a note.
 
I looked into this, adn found it isn't so in my version of civ2 (1.3). For me, units cost 4 gold/shield (including caravans),
Civ II MGE is the only version I've played. I run the latest patch, which brings it up to 5.4.0f, 31 March 1999.

Are you absolutely sure that it costs you 4 gold per shield? Here is how to try it:


Begin with at least one shield in the production box. If you don't have at least one, your first buy of the IPRB will be DOUBLED.

Let's assume your have 5 shields. If you don't have Feudalism or Gunpowder, you'll still have a Warrior available to buy. Switch production from freight to warrior. BUY the warrior. It should cost 11 gold to get those 5 shields.

Now, switch to Phalanx. You should have 10 of the requited 20. BUY the phalanx. It should cost 25 gold... not 40 gold. Now you have 20 shields. Switch to Diplomat or Archer.... you have 20 of 30 shields.

BTW, this process is the INCREMENTAL part of RUSH BUYING.

Now, buy the Diplomat. It will cost 25 gold. You should have 30 shields in the box. Switch to Settler, and now you have 30 of 40. Buy it (25g).

At this point, you have 40 shields of the required 50. The cost should be (11+25+25+25=86g). At least it is with Civ II MGE at Warlord thru Deity levels. I don't know about Chieftain, BTW.

Something to know: the cost of the shields for a unit depends on the remaining shields left in teh production box. The more shields, the more cost per shield, up to 20 (3200/160=20 gold per shield) if the box is empty and you buy a battleship/nuke from scratch.

 
Sorry, I must have misunderstood you last time. I didn't think it would cost more, the more shield that was left. But thanks for clearing that out for me, I really appreciate it.
 
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