Questions about Balor and Mercurian Civs...

[BlakeTheDrake]

...okay, now I just plain need advise on playing Infernals. Their unique... ahem... 'approach' to growth is giving me headaches. Apparently, the only way to increase the population of your cities is with Manes... and those are, apparently, only created when (living) Evil units are killed and neutral/evil cities are razed. Which is cool, as far as it goes, but what do you do if you're surrounded by 'Good' civs? My manufacturing and research is seriously crimped by the fact that most of my cities are size 3-5... is there any way you can produce living units yourself? Any at all? Or any other kind of trick to boosting your population?

 

[DaveGold]

You can spread evil religions to opponent's cities and any produced units might pick up a random religion from that city. Otherwise you might just be out of luck. Sometimes there just aren't enough evil people out there!

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Thanks for the advice - I managed to spread enough Ashen Veil in the Luichirp cities to actually convert them all to Ashen Veil. They converted back to Runes of Kilmorph a few turns later, but they've still got a lot of Ashen units running around, and since Runes just makes you neutral, I can still get loads of Manes from city razing...

 

[Ash_Highwind]

... is there any way you can produce living units yourself? Any at all? Or any other kind of trick to boosting your population?

Your disciple units are afaik living units, i make two fighting units one disciple (i mostly take the savants, cheap nad fast build) and send those units first at a city defence (10 most of the time - results mostly in 3-5 manes , luck dependent)


Same goes for the mercuries disciple units in that case are even better, try to get most exp on them at creation so that you get experienced angels (half the exp stays i think)



greets Ash

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Works for Mercurians - in fact, all their produced units are mortal. Doesn't work for Infernals - I checked. Even Disciples are considered 'Demonic', at least the Savants were... hmm... actually, I didn't check any of the other Disciples. Maybe those adherent to other religions can avoid the demonic taint. I wouldn't bet on it, though. So far, the only mortal unit I've been able to create is Rosier the Fallen.

Ah well. I managed to solve the problem anyway. Converted the dwarves, and tracked down and evil civ (Doviello, to be specific), way over on the other side of the planet. Sent a small detachment consisting of Hyborem, Rosier and Mary Morbus to tear some holes in them. Bolstered my population to no end. Of course, due to their lack of food-production, you don't NEED as much population as would otherwise be the case, since everyone you have can be completely dedicated to production and trade...

Hmm... come to think of it, I have another question. 'Burning sands' type desert - can it be converted to Plains of Perdition or Broken Lands territory with the 'Spring' spell? Unfortunately, I've got a couple of cities that were previously well-situated next to some flood-plains, but who are now just sitting on a bunch of useless Burning Sands... I guess, even if the answer's no, it would be possible by combining an Imp with Spring and an Imp with Sanctify... but that's really too much trouble to be worth it.

 

[Angel-Julia]

What’s the deal with people wanting to hinder their ally when playing Mercurians? It’s great to have them as cash-earners. They hand you EVERYTHING you request for. So you can request for all the resources, and all their gold (goor if you first set them up as Lanun, and build lots of cheap markets, banks etc). When you are requesting all their money then they wont have any money for upgrading, so wont waste their money on upgrading. Give them half of the land, so that the overall upkeep of the combined civilizations is reduced.
Meanwhile you’re getting all the income of the other civ, and half the upkeep as you have fewer cities (their cities are earning for you) and then you can run 100% science, with libraries etc, and get ample money from your allies to support your costs and upgrades (merc need a lot of upgrading for all those angels)

Yes, the AI is bad at managing their land, though your workers can still work your ally’s land, thus you can chose how to plan the improvements (most improvements would already be made by you before summoning Mercurians)

Combined Mercurian-Infernal game sounds interesting, your team gains power no matter if it’s a good or evil unit that dies. Half the land covered by hell terrain, and your ally willing to traid everything means that you have access to both good and evil resources.

The AI is bad at controlling both of them, though I guess the AI is worse at controlling the infernals(as they don’t know how to make a powerhouse infernal city), thus I’d probably take the infernals, and then set the Mercurians as my money/resource slave.

One thing to remember with permanent allies, is that their strength helps you, thus I often leave them with resources that I don’t need to increase their city size, and hence cash income for me. I also occasionally give them mana resources for a few turns so they can upgrade their adepts.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

What’s the deal with people wanting to hinder their ally when playing Mercurians?

Eh, it's mostly an ego-thing. I don't want to rule the world 'with a little help from your friends' - I wanna do it myself! If the involvement of an AI ally cannot be avoided, it can at least be minimized.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

...okay, something unexpected just happened. I was playing as the Infernal Civ, having taken over the empire of my original Sheaim, and basically just wasting time, waiting for the Elohim to build the Mercurian Gate so I could embark on an epic battle between devils and angels! I'd even handed the Elohim the necessary technology, and been careful not to hamper their production.

I had a Shadow doing laps through their cities, hoping to see the Mercurian Gate under construction somewhere, but it never did show up... I wondered why, for the longest time.

Then, a Vassal of mine, the Luichuirp, whom I had corrupted with the Ashen Veil religion earlier and turned away from the path of good, finished the Mercurian Gate, making it clear why the Elohim hadn't been constructing it. The Luichirps had continuously reverted to Runes of Kilmorph every time I converted them to Ashen Veil, so they were Neutral most of the time, and thus able to build the gate...

Now, there's nothing wrong with a Vassal of the Infernals building the Mercurian Gate. Actually, that makes perfect sense. What IS problematic is that when they emerge in that fashion, THEY wind up as Vassals to the Infernals as well. Which annoys me partially because it means I can't kick Bastium's heavenly arse, and partially because it's thematically disruptive. Ideally, if an Infernal Vassal builds the Mercurian Gate, the new 'team' will automatically stop being a vassal to the Infernals - obviously, if they built something like that, it was in order for the angels to save them from demonic servitude.

So yeah. Didn't see that comming, and now that I have, I don't much care for the sight. Completely ruined the theme of this game. Guess I might as well just go steamroll the Elohim and declare a Conquest Victory now...

 

[Pickly]

Well that's an interesting turn of events.

Might as well try it again I suppose. In a game with this many odd features and backstories, something like this does seem a possibility for slipping through.

Just hope Basium doesn't use his world spell....

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Eesh, hadn't thought of that.

Well, fortunately, I managed to turn the situation around. Made some outrageous demands of my newly-arrived 'Vassal' (who had a -12 to his attitude due to the whole 'You're Evil' and 'Apocalypse Now' situation), and he decided to declare war. Nice of him... so now, I'm tearing through both Basium's Angels, and my former vassals, with an unholy number of heroes. I dunno if it's the Infernal/Ashen Veil combination, or just luck, but I seem to have a ton of them. Hyborem, Rosier the Fallen, Mardero, Meshaber of Dis... and on top of that, random chance has given me three more: Mary Morbus, some crazy wizard who got caught performing unholy experiments (forgot his name, he doesn't seem to be in the 'pedia) and an Adventurer named Needles that I found in a dungeon, and who know follows my army as an Eidolon. Oh yeah, and of course Baron Duin Halfmorn, though he's not TECHNICALLY a Hero. Then again, neither's Mary, I suppose...

I've been trying to come up with a way to make each of them represent one of the 7 Mortal Sins, but it sadly doesn't seem to fit too well. Would be neat, tho.