Some Questions

[Cavebear]

I've been playing Civ 2 for at least 20 years. I stopped for a while, but have been playing daily for a month. And I have some questions I have never quite been able to answer on my own:

1. If I visit another Civ with a Diplomat, does that mean they discover where I am? I mean, i know the AI knows everything, but does it affect what the civs know in the play of the game?

2. If I go to Republic before Monarchy, does that harm my development somehow? I've tried to test that, but I can't tell.

3. How do foreign Diplomats steal my tech when I have a Spy? I thought that was an advantage of a Spy, but it happens routinely.

4. How much does a choice of civilization really matter? We mostly control what is done ourselves. I used to play American (just because the city names were familiar), but the Sioux always drove me crazy. So I've been playing as them lately. And it seems to be working better. But I'm not sure quite why or how.

And related to that, what color civ do you find most successful for you, and why?

5. Have you ever had all Top 5 cities your own? I did for the 1st time last week and was amazed. There as always been at least one foreign city on the list.

(see attachment)

6. What are the top 3 early Wonders you just can't live without? I need Great Wall, Pyramids, and Great Library. Later 4 ones are Leonardo's Workshop, Hoover's Dam, and Adam Smith's Trading company and the United Nations.

7. What it is worth, I am a builder and defense-oriented (which may be obvious). But lately, I've been more aggressive about accumulating gold and bribing cities. Just in case that matters for any answers to my questions.

I will be grateful for any answers to any of my questions... I'm not great at the game, but I sure try my best.

 

[duplj]

I've been playing Civ 2 for at least 20 years. I stopped for a while, but have been playing daily for a month. And I have some questions I have never quite been able to answer on my own:

1. If I visit another Civ with a Diplomat, does that mean they discover where I am? I mean, i know the AI knows everything, but does it affect what the civs know in the play of the game?

2. If I go to Republic before Monarchy, does that harm my development somehow? I've tried to test that, but I can't tell.

3. How do foreign Diplomats steal my tech when I have a Spy? I thought that was an advantage of a Spy, but it happens routinely.

4. How much does a choice of civilization really matter? We mostly control what is done ourselves. I used to play American (just because the city names were familiar), but the Sioux always drove me crazy. So I've been playing as them lately. And it seems to be working better. But I'm not sure quite why or how.

1. The question is unclear
2. If you have no opponents at an early stage, the transition to the Republic bypassing the Monarchy promises only advantages and rapid development from commercial income
3. Diplomats have always been able to steal technology and the AI actively uses this, the chance of success is about 100% that a diplomat will successfully steal technology from a city in which there has been no theft yet, but if there is one Diplomat defender in the city, the chance decreases to 80%, if there is one Spy defender in the city, the chance decreases to 60%, and if one Spy defender veteran, then to 40%. Thus, if you place a lot of diplomats or spies in the city, it will be more difficult to steal technology from you, since each defender, diplomat or spy will reduce the chance of stealing technology
4. There are no unique properties for a civilization in the game settings, so the choice does not matter much for a human player. But the choice of players for the AI is important, since if you give him more aggressive or conquering civilizations it should increase the number of wars, and it can also change their opinion of you

 

[Buck2005]

4. There are no unique properties for a civilization in the game settings, so the choice does not matter much for a human player. But the choice of players for the AI is important, since if you give him more aggressive or conquering civilizations it should increase the number of wars, and it can also change their opinion of you

In fact, in civ2 there really is some kind of "color differentiation of pants" among different nations. There were detailed studies on this topic on this site. Since I have always been extremely indifferent to these extremely microscopic differences, I will hardly be able to find the necessary topic. But these differences exist.

And, if I am not mistaken, the most "strong", for some reason, is precisely the last nation "Sioux".

 

[Cavebear]

1. The question is unclear
2. If you have no opponents at an early stage, the transition to the Republic bypassing the Monarchy promises only advantages and rapid development from commercial income
3. Diplomats have always been able to steal technology and the AI actively uses this, the chance of success is about 100% that a diplomat will successfully steal technology from a city in which there has been no theft yet, but if there is one Diplomat defender in the city, the chance decreases to 80%, if there is one Spy defender in the city, the chance decreases to 60%, and if one Spy defender veteran, then to 40%. Thus, if you place a lot of diplomats or spies in the city, it will be more difficult to steal technology from you, since each defender, diplomat or spy will reduce the chance of stealing technology
4. There are no unique properties for a civilization in the game settings, so the choice does not matter much for a human player. But the choice of players for the AI is important, since if you give him more aggressive or conquering civilizations it should increase the number of wars, and it can also change their opinion of you

Thank you for the reply and information!

#1. I'm sorry the question was unclear. What I meant was that oftentimes, civs visit me for the 1st time immediately after I visited them with a Dip. So I was wondering if my Dip gives them information about where I am located. Having a Dip establish a relationship is advantageous in that they show up on the demographics chart, but if it means it helps them learn where I am, I might delay that a bit.

#2 Thanks. I sometimes have difficulty keeping the citizens happy or content if I skip Monarchy. But perhaps that is because I've skipped some tech advances as well. I think I will stick to the standard progression for a while.

#3 That was a very detailed % of results regarding Dips and Spies.. I appreciate it. How some players figure out these things amazes me! I will certainly go for veteran or multiple Spies in the future.

#4 I suspected that I had control over the play of my own Civ regardless of color group, but couldn't prove it. Still, taking a color Civ that gave me the most difficulty as an opponent does take that style out of the game. Just by habit, I have almost always played as American. But the Sioux cities have cooler names and it means I don't have to fight THEM. *smile*

1. The question is unclear
2. If you have no opponents at an early stage, the transition to the Republic bypassing the Monarchy promises only advantages and rapid development from commercial income
3. Diplomats have always been able to steal technology and the AI actively uses this, the chance of success is about 100% that a diplomat will successfully steal technology from a city in which there has been no theft yet, but if there is one Diplomat defender in the city, the chance decreases to 80%, if there is one Spy defender in the city, the chance decreases to 60%, and if one Spy defender veteran, then to 40%. Thus, if you place a lot of diplomats or spies in the city, it will be more difficult to steal technology from you, since each defender, diplomat or spy will reduce the chance of stealing technology
4. There are no unique properties for a civilization in the game settings, so the choice does not matter much for a human player. But the choice of players for the AI is important, since if you give him more aggressive or conquering civilizations it should increase the number of wars, and it can also change their opinion of you

 

[Cavebear]

In fact, in civ2 there really is some kind of "color differentiation of pants" among different nations. There were detailed studies on this topic on this site. Since I have always been extremely indifferent to these extremely microscopic differences, I will hardly be able to find the necessary topic. But these differences exist.

And, if I am not mistaken, the most "strong", for some reason, is precisely the last nation "Sioux".

View attachment 727506

The Sioux certainly show up #1 on a lot of demographics. Yet I can't recall them getting to Alpha Centuri first very often. I play Civilized, Expantionist, and Rational.

 

[Buck2005]

The Sioux certainly show up #1 on a lot of demographics. Yet I can't recall them getting to Alpha Centuri first very often. I play Civilized, Expantionist, and Rational.

The Sioux have some micro-bonuses built into the game code, like reduced research costs (compared to other nations), and something else it seems.

But in reality they are so insignificant that they are generally within the statistical error. In any case, the experience of playing multiplayer, when two or more fairly experienced players play, for example, for nations polar in bonuses (Rome and Sioux), no one has any significant advantages. The overall outcome of the game depends strictly on the experience of the players and the initial starting conditions when landing the settlers.

 

[Cavebear]

Thank you about the built-in Sioux advantage. That explains why they always show up well but don't last in the end.

Funny that you mentioned multi-player. I tried that a few years soon after it first came out. I wasn't very good at it. In partnerships, I worried too much about letting my partner down. In single play, I couldn't understand (was up against better players) what my opponents were doing.

But those who can't DO, can organize. I was like that in chess as President of the University of Maryland Chess Club in the 70s. Worst player in the room, but I could organize tournaments, LOL! So back in the day (90s), I organized the first international multiplayer (one on one) tourney. It was maddening getting players from across the world finding agreed-times to play each other. But it all worked out eventually.

I don't recall exactly who won (gone through a few computers since then and some files vanish) , but I think they were SunTzu and Eyes Of Night. Sun Tzu was a master city-builder and Eyes Of Night had a real talent for learning from the demographics chart. Sun Tzu once won at Deity with a single city on an island. I asked Eyes Of Night about how to read the demographic chart and he said "Play 1,000 games, then we'll talk about it". LOL! I even made a trophy and sent it to the winner. Nice wood base, red pedestal, and a mounted horseman atop.

I'm really just trying to get back into the game. I used to be able to win at Emperor level, but I've forgotten so much. I've gotten back to where Prince is a routine win, but King is giving me problems. I don't get all the best Wonders and I depend on those. But more play sharpens skills...

Happy playing!

 

[cuc]

4. How much does a choice of civilization really matter?

From what we know, tribe choices in Civ2 matter in four ways. I'll explain them in the order from the simple to the esoteric.

It manifests from two facets: their fixed color slots, and three AI personality traits (aggressiveness, expansionism,
"civilizedness"/militarism) defined in RULES.TXT or LEADERS.TXT.

i. Civ slots & turn order
Each playable civ is tied to one of 7 fixed color slots, in fixed order.
Players pass turns in the order of the slots, from white to purple to barbarian.

Civs from the same slot won't appear together; a new civ may only spawn midgame in a vacant slot.

ii. AI personality & starting techs
Each civ has three fixed traits that influence their AI behavior (however, their effects are not so decisive compared to more powerful factors like geography).
Each trait can take 1 value out of 3.

Aggressive / Neutral / Rational (in the table): how likely to start wars.
Expansionist / Neutral / Perfectionist ( in the table): how likely to expand (play "wide" or "tall").
Civilized / Neutral / Militaristic (colors of civ names): prefer non-military or military tech research.

For example, Mongols are Aggressive, Expansionist, Militaristic, making them the worst AI neighbor.
Babylonians are Rational, Perfectionist, Civilized, making them the least threatening.

Moreover, it turns out the last trait has an impact even when played by a human: it affects what starting techs you may get. Tests show that a Militaristic civ is more likely to start with military techs.

iii. Spawn order, starting locations & number of starting techs
From the above test post, you also get this crucial info:

When starting a new game, the players are placed on the map in the color slot order.
Since white is placed first, it always gets the best spawn site (though the above post notes that the placement criterion is food, which is not actually the best), and the purple player gets the worst - sometimes spawning in the ice cap on Small maps.

In an attempt to balance things out, Civ2 will then calculate a handicap value based on the spawn locations, and give compensation bonuses like starting Settlers and techs.

And as tested in the previously cited post, because purple has the worst spawn, they are more likely to start with more techs, which explains the Sioux tech advantages you sometimes see, since they are in the purple slot.

iv. Tech lead penalty & KeyCiv
Civ2 tries to reduce gaps between civs, by comparing a civ's science progress to what's been called a "KeyCiv".

The civ-KeyCiv pairing is based on the civ's Power Rating reported by the Foreign Minister:

Pathetic
Weak
Inadequate
Moderate
Strong
Mighty
Supreme

If your rating is Pathetic, your KeyCiv is white; if you are Supreme, your KeyCiv is purple. And if you are in the tech lead over the KeyCiv, you receive a research penalty based on the gap.

This has implications:
- You can manipulate this gap by identifying your KeyCiv, and gifting it techs;
- Purple has the advantage that once they reach Supreme, they are compared to themselves, and suffer no penalty.

An advanced tips post has more details.

 

[Buck2005]

An advanced tips post has more details.

Thank you very much for the link. This is a really great study on this topic!


However, it is worth emphasizing that many years of experience playing civ2 show that the influence of the "key civilization" is really insignificant (although it is really present in the game). Still, it is better to just enjoy this game for any nation, rather than count some insignificant beaker. )

 

[Cavebear]

Thank you cuc! That was really excellent and explained several things about how the Civ2 program works. iii and iv were completely new to me. I will consider both in starting and playing my next game. I will certainly try playing as white for the best spawn site (I too often end up at the bottom of the map). I've tended to choose civs with city names I can remember easily. Also, I've been protective of my techs, so I seldom gift any. I'll give that a try too.

 

[Cavebear]

I played Roman at King level. Complete fail!. I got the center of the map but that meant the other Civs found and attacked me before I could build Settlers and defensive Phalanxs. I was attacked on 4 sides. They took 3 of 7 cities. I'm still playing (in 3rd place of 7), but it sure looks like an uphill fight.

 

[J437]

>1. If I visit another Civ with a Diplomat, does that mean they discover where I am? I mean, i know the AI knows everything, but does it affect what the civs know in the play of the game?

The CIVS are looking for you anyway, but yeah you don't have to contact them. Still, no they I don't think know where you are due to contact.

Usually you'd want to contact them and possibly trade knowledge, definitely get a sense of their level of development, etc. But for example if it's real early, or if you're pretty powerful and they're a remote CIV, you may just want to monitor them.

2. If I go to Republic before Monarchy, does that harm my development somehow? I've tried to test that, but I can't tell.

Republic is just difficult because of unhappiness , but the tech benefits are good. It's just hard to do anything like conquest in Republic. Especially early, unless you have Galleons you won't be able to explore with boats, and you'd need explorers as horsemen would cause unhappiness. So it seems more useful as a quick burst of added tech speed toward Democracy.

>I played Roman at King level. Complete fail!. I got the center of the map but that meant the other Civs found and attacked me before I could build Settlers and defensive Phalanxs. I was attacked on 4 sides. They took 3 of 7 cities. I'm still playing (in 3rd place of 7), but it sure looks like an uphill fight.

Make peace with the strongest, and recover nearby cities from the weaker. Try to sweep through them and grab cities.

As we all know, once they know where you are they will send stuff over again and again. As you grow you can find natural barriers and often build a city there. I try early on to at least try to put a barrier on any CIV that is farther away, it can often limit their growth. I also absolutely go after the nearest CIV and try to take their capital. Immediately