Rails and Airports

dexters

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Rails - The current system of 0 movement penalty while travelling on rails worked to some extent of modeling the rapid transit of troops. However, rail is a decidely 19th century concept.

I propose that rail movement be nerfed to a movement bonus. A 1 movement unit for example can move up to 4 tiles on rails. which is still substantially more than roads. The actual movement you can achieve here can be adjusted upwards for game balance, but the idea I want to get through here is that moving on rails should not be costless. So that if you're shifting troops from one end of your empire to another, the slower moving defensive units may take a few turns to arrive.


Flight should be a modern Age Technology that gives us Airports

Airports - Airlift will be scrapped. These will be the improvements to replace rails as the 'instant' movement . To do this however, players need to establish air routes between cities. These air routes can have multiple upgrades. Level 1 - 1 unit per turn Level 2 - 3 units Level 3 - 6 units and there are multiplying forces. 2 cities with level 3 airports would allow the movement of 6*2 = 12 units in any direction. However, if one city has a level 1 airport and the other a level 3, the movement can only be capped at 7 units and so on. These numbers may be adjusted for balance, and they are here only to illustrate a point. These air route capacitys will be calculated along each node, the weakest link in your chain will matter.

This of this as like a fishnet, or the internet. Each city is a node and the capacity of their airport is like the bandwidth. This adds some strategy, and if you're shifting troops through one chokepoint, that chokepoint is going to limit your ability to move an entire army in with one turn.

Air routes will also function much like caravans, each route will add a commerce bonus to both cities. And since pollution will be reworked and possibly removed, the workers in the late game will be relatively free. So here's an idea. Instead of being a city improvement built by the city, each city's airports and subsequent upgrades are built by workers. So basically, you pile in a bunch of workers into a city, and they build an airport. There will be some defined cost to building and it will take X amount of turns etc. And like all worker projects, the more you stack the faster the work gets done.

Also, players can create additional nodes in your air system by building airports outside of cities (much like the current Civ3 airports) and these airports can also be improved, however there will be no commerce bonus.

Also, as the number of nodes multiply, the number of possible air route permutations multiply. To prevent players from creating a mess, each city will be limited to say 3 air routes, which means that players may periodically have to optimize routes leaving key cities.

The basic idea though is not to complicate the game by forcing micromanagement of routes, but to encourage the creation of a daisy chain system and add strategy so that players may direct air routes from its cities to a outlying border town to prepare the capacity for an invasion.

Implications:

I've attached a hypoethetical 4 city, 1 airbase situation.
The cities are the red dots, the blue dot is an airforce base and the red numbers next to the lines indicate route capacity.

Let's say my central reserves is in London and war breaks out. The fastest way to get my units to the front is to move them to the Airforce base where they can move by rail into enemy territory. With my current configuration, I have no direct route from London to to the airbase so I have to move the units through other cities. Birminghan, Surrey and Coventry does have air routes to this airforce base and given their capacity vis-a-vis the airforce base. From London to these 3 cities, we can move 28 (12+7+9) units. I can however move from these 3 cities only 19 units (9+6+4) to the airforce base, so this at once limits my mobility and brings attention to the fact that I would have to reconfigure my route system to divert capacity into the airforcebase.

Comments welcome.
 

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Umm, regardless of commercial traffic routes, if a military needs to go a certain route, it will get there by the direct route. The skies don't need to be paved to be used.

In my model, rail depot city improvements allow instant movement between road-connected (rails are assumed once depots exist at both ends) cities, for a small gold fee for each unit that is 'rail-lifted'. Airports offer the exact same feature, except they don't need a road connection, and cost a bit more than rails per unit lifted.

Rails and air also have a certain total distance per lift (so you can't travel all teh way around teh world in one action). This starts off low, and rises with appropriate tech advances, but air will always have a greater range, and the rail requirement for an established land connection means air will always be more flexible anyway.

I'd also add a new tile improvement, highways, to be an upgrade to the roads, perhaps with move costs of 1/2 and 1/4 respectively.
 
Firstly, I completely agree that Railroads are stupid(they were cool at first, but got old fast). I think they should spend 1/6 of the points (doubling the effectiveness of a road) rather than 1/4, but that's not the issue here. This system would add the needed manuevering for larger empires, while retaining the strategy that railroads removed. And they would add a strategy of their own.

I like this idea, assuming that the lower base in your example can accept all 19 of those units. I also think that if you changed an air route, it would use up all of the air movement in that city for one turn.

I haven't played Civ2, so I don't know what Caravans are, but I like the idea of a comerce bonus for airports :)

The only problem I see is keeping track of which cities link to which. Using a few "hub" cities would alleviate the problem but not remove it.

Of course, like everything else in this game (or to me, it seems), it could be made way cooler by integrating this with provinces. Perhaps only Provincial Capitals and your Main Capital could establish air routes. This would save micromanagement, and add more strategy since the airport number would be limited.
 
wakiki said:
Of course, like everything else in this game (or to me, it seems), it could be made way cooler by integrating this with provinces. Perhaps only Provincial Capitals and your Main Capital could establish air routes. This would save micromanagement, and add more strategy since the airport number would be limited.

Yep. I was actually thinking exactly the same thing as I was running over more ideas after I posted. One of the biggest weakness of my plan is the potential for mass complexity even with the 3 route limit once you start to have more than just a handful of cities.

I could personally never really keep track of all my caravan trade routes in Civ2 and I doubt an organizer feature that lists all your routes would help the problem much, other than adding another screen for us to navigate and lots of time spent figuring out where to go.

If provinces do go in, I think your suggestion would work perfectly.

There would be unlimited travel within provinces but inter-province travel would be constrained by the airlift capacity of your 'provincial airport' where each province could have a designated airport. Since most players probably will have far fewer provinces than cities, the clutter will be removed and the model I described would be unchanged, but instead of cities on those nodes, we can replace it with provinces.

This model would also tie in well when we deal with player to AI and AI to AI air travel where you're moving stuff internationally.

Again, assuming the diplomatic model is reworked to allow the use of an allied city/airbase, then the air route model would work as if you're traveling to another province. Each province + your capital may also engage in routes with other AI provinces for matters of commerce.

I think my model solves 3 nagging issues I have with the late game Civ model currently.

1st. Overpowered and usually useless airports
2nd. Overpowered railroads that seem to loom large for the rest of your game despite the fact that historically they've been made less relevant by air travel
3rd. Idle workers in the late game.

In my model, rail depot city improvements allow instant movement between road-connected (rails are assumed once depots exist at both ends) cities, for a small gold fee for each unit that is 'rail-lifted'. Airports offer the exact same feature, except they don't need a road connection, and cost a bit more than rails per unit lifted.

Rails and air also have a certain total distance per lift (so you can't travel all teh way around teh world in one action). This starts off low, and rises with appropriate tech advances, but air will always have a greater range, and the rail requirement for an established land connection means air will always be more flexible anyway.

I'd also add a new tile improvement, highways, to be an upgrade to the roads, perhaps with move costs of 1/2 and 1/4 respectively.

Interesting. I like the concept. So this works like the current air rebase options but with gold costs associated? Would this not become a problem, probably for the AI, if they fritter away their gold perhaps from an inefficient algorithm that doesnt move troops efficietly? Of in cases where an otherwise strong civ is caught in a budget crises when the attack comes. Their cities would be sitting ducks from their inability to move troops in quickly enough.
 
Yeah, basically every aspect and idea of the game could be improved by using provinces :lol:

I was thinking only the provincial capitals could establish routes to other provincial cities / your capital, and that your inter-province travel would consist of railroads.

I like the idea of spending money to airlift units. As for a powerful civ running out of money to do it...well, that's a good thing :) If your civ's weakness if money, then that adds a challenge. Perhaps that would be the Democracy's advantage in war: due to superior funds, they could airlift their units around more effectively. As for the A.I. piddling money away because of that, that could be true, and it would be bad :(
 
Well, I think that what would improve railroads, roads AND airports is to simply give all of them a limited CAPACITY!!! For roads and rail, this capacity would be based around the total amount of 'connective infrastructure' between your cities (and perhaps the average size of your cities), as well as specific techs and/or improvements which effect roads and/or railroads. Basically every 'point' of capacity allows you to move 1 unit on the appropriate infrastructure, up to the infrastructures maximum movement bonus (so rail, for instance, would still give infinite movement).
Airports in cities would grant capacity according to the city size, and the tech level of the current airport facility. Airbases would also grant capacity, but seperate from the civilian capacity.
The crux is, though, that capacity (be it air, rail or road) also generates income, income which both offsets the costs of the infrastructure, and also makes you a tidy profit. For every capacity point you use to move units, though, you lose that point for the purposes of generating income-thus making a large scale movement of units a fairly costly exercise. The exception to this is military airbases which, though they have a maintainance cost, do not generate any income, and so can give you 'free capacity' for the movement of units.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Technically, they are not my ideas, but rather an 'adaptation' of Frekks Railroad capacity system. Still, I have supported his idea almost from the very outset!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
My take on this;

Do away with the no-cost movement of railroads. Instead, have them triple the capacity of a road network.

Airports should have a range (say forty tiles - four times rail distance) that they can airlift any number of units in a given turn (and that takes up the unit's movement points. You should also be able to build airfields outside of your cities.

An addition would be highways, which would increase trade. If roads have a limited capacity for trade, then highways would double or triple that. It would stop people from building rails everywhere, and force you to share the space with highways between cities.

Just my thoughts.
 
I'd rather that railroads have more limited range then limited capacity and I'd perfer that airports have limited capacity. In the early stages, they would also have limited range. Air transport is an extremely inefficient way to move goods, but in the end stages of civ, it replaces naval transport in all but the most extreme cases. This must be changed.
 
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