RB1 - Let's get started

omg I had typed up a response, but then "the server is too busy at the moment" so my post disappeared :(

Anyways I got the full game today and started up an emperor game. Stonehenge was completed by the AI at turn 50, which isn't fast, but i think it will be hard to get both it and TGL. I mean we could probably get both built, but it would be very hard to both build the stonehenge AND sling civil service from the great library, since before we can complete TGL we'd need:

Pottery, Calendar, Writing, Animal Husbandry, Trapping, Philosophy.

And by then i'd think that an AI will already have completed the great library. So we'd probably be better off with your GS suggestion. Get stonehenge, then build a library for the two scientist specialists so we can grab CS with our GS, and maybe get mining somewhere in between.

The tech path still works:

Pottery -> Calendar -> Writing -> Mining. Then we could time the pre-req techs for CS to be completed for when our GS pops.

Build in our cap could be something like this:

Scout -> Worker -> Stonehenge -> Library -> Warrior -> Settler
 
I dislike delaying a settler for so long. Why do we want Stonehenge? 8 culture means we expand faster, sure, but we're America on a river! Almost all the tiles we'll be working pull in gold, and we buy tiles more cheaply than anyone.

I still say settle in place. 3 pulls in three mountain tiles in the third ring, as opposed to the two that settling in place would give. Once we farm those flood plains we'll have plenty of 3/0/1 tiles, same as an oasis, 4/0/1 with CS, but the advantage of not moving is that we have more hills in first and second ring to work with the support.

If you really want to make our capital into a GP farm, then move 3. But I don't think second-ring oasis is really worth missing out on the awesomeness that is hill silver (bet you a dollar there's iron in these hills, too), and we can still go pottery-->writing-->mining-->ah-->trapping-->philosophy easily enough for the CS slingshot.

The advantage of CS is a ton of food that lets you work low-food high-production tiles, and I don't see much benefit in moving away from our hammertime.
 
Risky, yes. Weak, no. Civil Service itself is worth 400 base research points, which (as I describe below) is more than the research total required for the slingshot.

This analysis intentionally isn't precise, because detailed planning will almost certainly be blown away by a few of ruins and city states picks. But roughly:

Most basic research requirements for Civil Service slingshot, in research points, from the manual:

* Animal Husbandry = 35
* Pottery = 35
* Trapping = 55
* Writing = 55
* Calendar = 70
* Philosophy = 100

Total 350 research. Research total = Palace 2 + 1 per population. I'll be surprised that can be completed in under 70 turns. We're not stopping for a Library or anything that will bolster research, except population. While we have the terrain to support decent food production, we don't have the Happiness. There are wildcards from a ruins (for example, an early +1 population).

Realistic production following strategy outlined here, in hammers, from the manual:

* Scout = 25
* Worker = 70
* Stonehenge = 120
* The Great Library = 150

Total 365 hammers. That's, what, 1 mined hill + the capital for the (roughly) 70 turns the research will take us? Except no mining, so 1 unimproved hill early, later 2. We have plenty of farming potential along the river (with a bonus of gold), so we can probably attain enough excess food without getting lucky on city states. The Tradition Social Policy could be strong here - first for the food bonus at the very start (allowing growth *and* working a hill), second for the wonder production bonus. With Stonehenge, that second bonus will come fast enough to help The Great Library along - 50 less hammers when you don't have mines or the ability to chop, is non-trivial. With ruins luck, that second policy may even be in place in time to help Stonehenge.

Given that production, research seems to be more of a limitation than production. Implication is that there may be space to build something in between Stonehenge and The Great Library. The catch is that having gone for Stonehenge, we've already made it tough to beat other civs to The Great Library, so can we afford further delay?

There's 2 conclusions from that analysis:

1. Stellar diplomacy could be what wins it: Either for obscene amounts of food (quickly growing population up to the Happy cap), or a trade for a luxury resource (although I'm honestly not sure how, since we're not connecting anything we have).

2. Scouting luck. I hate to say it, but 2 brilliant ruins (such as +30 social policy ruins and +1 population) early are as powerful as almost anything else we might be doing.

While there's a bit of strategy here (prioritizing exploration), and we might be able to better (than the AI) to adjust to whatever is found, this sort of variable makes this particular Civil Service slingshot... interesting. It's worth noting that the Theology slingshot requires 80 less research than we require, which leaves a fair bit of potential for an AI civ to steal both The Great Library and get something good research-wise.

As I said earlier, I think it's bold, and for the purpose of learning it might be worth a shot. I have no idea how tough Emperor is.

At least hit Stonehenge, and tech towards Civil Service, then take stock of the situation when Stonehenge completes. If we lose Stonehenge, a rapid shift of strategy may be required. But I think there's a good chance of getting Stonehenge, with such a direct tech path and no military builds. And Stonehenge is not a bad wonder given the early capital focus.
 
Yeah we should go for stonehenge at first, and if we then notice we won't be able to get TGL in time, just build a library and run the specialists.

I tried doing the stonehenge + CS sling from TGL, and obviously the circumstances weren't exactly the same as in our game here, but it was on emperor, and i was beat out on TGL by 5 turns because I had to wait until philosophy was completed. If I had just build TGL without lining it up with the final pre-req tech i'd have taken it, but I think having to wait to have researched all the pre-req techs before completing the great library makes it hard to get both of them. Maybe I was just doing it wrong though.
 
Doesn't marble give a bonus to constructing wonders? I have to say I'm enjoying seeing the clouds rather than the big black hexagonal blobs my crappy video card give me :lol:
 
Aretii - Stonehenge is conventionally regarded as strong because it has an outrageous culture bonus, costs almost nothing in production, contributes a Great person point, and is available very early. But. In this game there are 2 specific negatives with Stonehenge:

1. We don't immediately need Calendar to improve a resource, which is a common scenario. So the only short-term reason to research Calendar is Stonehenge.

2. As America, we have a slight advantage on acquiring tiles. Only slight because early expansion is normally a natural process, while early gold is precious: With no military to speak of, gold is likely needed to buy City State love. However, if we aren't rushing to hook up resources, almost any of the sites being considered will open up several floodplains, so I'm not even convinced of the urgent need for border expansion.

In contrast, all those flood plains appear to make Civil Service great, aside from being a perfect Great Library slingshot. Farm+River+Civil Service = 4 food per person. That's the basis for a solid production powerhouse (assuming enough hills are kept in range), a specialist city (more food resources might be nice, but you can't have everything), a financial centre (trading posts, silver, and river, all early), however you want to play it.

So, if the choice is between Stonehenge and The Great Library->Civil Service, I'm wavering towards the second. I'm just unsure it can be done. It's certainly worth watching AI progress on other wonders and ages carefully. Perhaps more importantly, I'm unsure it can be done without paying a high price shortly after: Effectively waiting till about turn 60 (on the most direct route) to build Settlers, or even start researching military techs - a single Warrior isn't going to be fooling anyone by that stage.

(Erm, I was trying just to lurk, honest...)
 
Both my early games on Emperor so far, great library has been completed around turn 70, for whatever that's worth.
 
What the heck are you guys talking about ... TGL gives 2 free scientists ... how are you going to use it to sling Civil Service?

I guess I am asking for a compare / contrast approach (in addition to all of the deconstruction of Civ V mechanics that is already taking place :D) to this game so that people familiar with Civ IV can ease into Civ V based on the knowledge they have from IV.
 
ruff_hi said:
What the heck are you guys talking about ... TGL gives 2 free scientists ... how are you going to use it to sling Civil Service?

I guess I am asking for a compare / contrast approach (in addition to all of the deconstruction of Civ V mechanics that is already taking place :D) to this game so that people familiar with Civ IV can ease into Civ V based on the knowledge they have from IV.
Click to expand...

Civ 5 Great Library works like the Oracle, IE a free tech. Oracle gives a free social policy instead. I haven't checked if there's any wonder that gives two free scientists in Civ 5, but the regular library does enable you to make two scientist specialists, just like the libraries in Civ 4.

I guess we could continue explaining such differences as we go on, would be helpful for the people who don't have the game yet at least :)
 
This will be my first-ever lurking of a non-finished SG. I am a new member both here and at RB, and I look forward to lurking this! :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to ask, what social policies will you guys be going for? I know timski suggested Tradition, but he isn't playing, and so doesn't get to choose. My opinion is he's right, though, unless you want to fight early wars (Honor) or really go whole hog on REXing (Liberty).
 
lurker's comment: I'm curious to see how the move SE (3) and settle works. Of course we're all still getting used to this game but my instinct would be to go 1NW (7) and settle. Puts the silver in the 1st ring and the city can expand West to the Oasis and North to the invisible iron. Also makes more room for a 2nd city SE on the river for the Oasis/Marble...say 2E of the Oasis or even 1E if you don't care about being on the river.

Good luck![lurk]
 
Okay, so I move 3 and settle:

startplx.jpg


Research is set to Pottery, due in 10. You can see I am building a Scout for the ruins rush while working the floodplains. These (along with grassland), suck according to current theory. Golden Ages are so common you want to have a hammer on your tile. But we'll see what we can do with it. Growth is in 8 turns, with the Scout due in 7 turns. Next turn I pop a hut and find:

hut1.jpg


I immediately buy the Oasis tile for 35g. Growth goes from eight turns to four turns :cool:. I swing the Scout south, then towards a new ruin when I find:

reefv.jpg


This is the best natural wonder. It covers two tiles so we get two free happy from it! The ruins only reveal information about Barbarian encampments (one in the fog SE, one 5W). Pretty sure this is the weakest result possible. This is not worth it, for sure:

nahg.jpg


We are boxed in down there, the Warrior turns back north and hugs the mountains to see if there is a pass. On turn 6 I put our new citizen onto a floodplains tile. Next growth is in 7 turns with 3 surplus still from the Oasis. Turn 9 Pottery comes in and I go for Calendar next. Stonhenge! The Scout goes NW (I went Worker second BTW) and finds Dublin, but Elizabeth had just beat us to it, so we only get 15 gold :(. I am careful to not violate their territory, but do move through the narrow isthmus to see what's on the other side:

gooddublin.jpg


London is indeed up that way, with not a lot of land. Dublin could make a good buffer state; too bad they aren't Maritime. There is indeed a pass in the eastern mountains, and on the other side is Persia!

dariuss.jpg


Unfortunately before I could find Persepolis (?) a barbarian shows up and I'm forced to bring my Warrior back :(.

barbf.jpg


After two bombards the bad guy is beat up, so I finish him with our Warrior for two XPs at the cost of 2 HPs of damage. I stop on turn 20, 3200 B.C.

Roster
regoarrarr is UP
sunrise089 is on deck.

Darrell
 

Attachments

For me the clincher for 3 and settle was it made best use of the land overall (i.e. it picked up the good tiles near the mountains, but no mountains.

Darrell
 
Not too bad land then, we can take the marble and then expand to the hills NE for production

Also where's England? I'm guessing Persia is the red dot on the mini map in the last pic, don't see england though unless i'm missing something
 
Nice!

I think it's best to ignore mining/masonry for now and go directly for the great library after stonehenge. The silver isn't even in range, and farmed river hills will be the best tiles regardless. While getting the wonder bonus from marble for the great library would be cool, there's not enough time for that after diverting to calendar - the AI will probably finish GL first in that case. So AH->Writing->(Trapping and Philosophy) should be good.

For worker micro, all we need is farms and it doesn't really matter where as our pop is so high compared to our improved tile count. So first make one on a FP on the same side of the river to gain a worker turn, then make one on a river hill, then FP, then hill. (Probably needing to buy that second river hill pretty soon.)

The big decision I think is social policies. Philosophy (Classical) unlocks Piety, and Civil Service (Medieval) unlocks Patronage and Commerce. It might be worth saving up for those rather than starting one of the ancient trees.
 
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