RB20 - Miller Time

(continued from previous page)

1778AD: Another farmland plot swallowed by the forest.

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This is my fourth turn, and finally, the two settlers I inherited from Mike are ready to plant. First one is planted at Lemonade Stand. The second I pushed all the way northeast to the English border:

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No high-food plots, but five grass windmills and four grass lumbermills.


A closer inspection of the south reveals trouble. :eek:

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OK, so Iustus was right. More escort would have been wise. Too late now, though.

And yet, I have a scheme. As we saw earlier, pulling a unit out of a new city can attract barbs to attack the unit instead of the city. I will move the Horse Archer west. The barb will attack it instead of the city (we hope) and I can move the trailing Musket escort next to it on the following turn, again giving the barb a choice between a unit and the city. If it attacks both units, the city will be saved.

Oh, and besides, our unit is net 7.2 Str, vs an 8 Str hostile. We have about almost a one in three chance of winning the first fight.

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BWAHA! You know what's coming next, right? :cooool:

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good! :lol:

:rotfl:

The OAKLAND RAIDERS!

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Just win, baby. Silver and Black! Oh yeah.

To the bold go the spoils.


Queen said:
"Here we are, born to be kings.
"We're the princes of the universe!"

"Here we belong.
"Fighting to survive in a world with the darkest powers!
"We've come to be the rulers of your world."

"I am immortal!
"I have inside me blood of kings."

"I have no rival.
"No man can be my equal!
"Take me to the future of your world!"

"No man could understand.
"My power is my own hands."

"With my sword and head held high.
"Got to pass the test first time."

"We were born to be princes of the universe!"

Queen said:
"Who wants to live forever?"

"Forever is our today."
 
1784AD: Denver pops its borders, the first to benefit from the new "Artist on the Border" policy.

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You can see why Cleveland is in dire straits, though. Look at that Malinese reach! :eek:

The settler trained recently in Atlanta reaches its site.

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This was better than my old Orange Dot, for sure.

Dark Blue Dot is also (finally!) settled:

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Now for the tech trading. Earlier, I traded Guilds to Peter for Theology and 20g.

I decide to grab Economics while I still can:

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Then to get something from Gunpowder via Liz:

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This brings us up out of our tech hole, more or less.
I don't think WFYABTA will hit us in the short term.
The trailing AIs don't have much to trade us, though...
...while the leading AIs have little or nothing left that WE can trade to THEM.

No use trying to trade something cheaper than what we want, unless we offer two-for one.
We don't exactly have that opportunity anywhere that I can see.
Nor do I see much chance for such a move in the near term.

Our best bet may be to go for Rifling, a military tech they value extra, and try to broker that.
 
Good work protecting our SE borders Sirian. I'm glad to see that my almost enough, one turn too late, reinforcement strategy continues to hold up for us.

Once Replaceable Parts is done, we will become Hammer rich, though still Commerce poor. I suggest lumbermilling the river from DC to Atlanta first, since these developed cities will have the most commerce multiplying buildings. We should also consider building Research in DC, NY, and ATL. Normally I don't do that, but every bit of research will help if we're going to try to grab Rifling ASAP to trade it around.
 
1786AD: Brunel born in Chicago.

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We may yet get the Statue with his help. Obviously, we'd build partway first, and only use him when he'd get us the wonder on the same turn, guaranteeing that his use would not go to waste.

If that fails, we should use him to rush Wall Street in DC (where our shrine is located!) DC is currently building National Epic and will be done early in Strauss's round.

Cincinnati has popped its border but not moved much. It's struggling just to maintain control over its own tiles, but this helps quite a bit.

LA starts Barracks. I am building them in a couple of other big cities still lacking, as well.

Buddhism self-spreads to Albuquerque. Its border will pop by the end of my round, bringing the Pigs in reach.

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I have Buddhist and Taoist missionaries heading for Aryan.

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1790AD: Santa Fe founded:

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Mansa has Riflemen:

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One good thing about moving him to Free Religion while we stay in Buddhism/Pacifism is that we continue to be able to spy. My intent at this point is that we should remain in Buddhism for the rest of the game, but try to move others to Free Religion (if they founded a religion) or to Buddhism (if they have none of their own). We should probably set up some Missionary factories and try to keep a constant flow of three Missionaries on the board or in production at all times. This, after the land grab phase ends, of course. First things first. :)


1792AD: Production across our empire skyrockets, as we become a High Shield Variant(TM).

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We also take the lead in score, if only for the moment.
 
1794AD: Some minor skirmishing with barbarians in the deep south.

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Although I have sent zero settlers in that direction, I have sent most of our new military down there.
The rest has gone to the northeast.


1796AD: Taoism spread to Aryan. I predict Mansa goes "First Amendment" on us next turn.


White Dot founded.

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Also its lone farm is secure. The city is unprotected, though, and needs some kind of unit.
Perhaps train a musket and leave it IN Boston, moving Boston's Archer here?


1798AD: Mansa writes the Bill of Rights:

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Cleveland has popped its border, which has slowed (but NOT halted) the loss of cultural ratio in the city itself.


1800AD: My round ends.

I founded six new cities, with two settlers en route to the last two worthwhile sites in the north.

Banana Site:

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Dark Gray Dot:

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There are two good sites left to grab in the south:

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Green Dot MUST be founded exactly there to be able to spread fresh water to those dry plains.

White Dot will have only one windmill but can grow large in population.

New Dark Gray Dot is a crappy "filler" site to get later, only slightly better than Black Dot. :lol:


Bhuddist Missionary en route to London, so we can keep an eye on Lizzie:

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She and Mansa will grow VERY close, as Free Religion is her "favorite civic".
 
Behold as I unveil the New Dark Blue Dot! :cooool:

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Six windmills and one riverside lumbermills. Size 7 half-city, but will pay for itself post-Electricity.


Newest Red Dot:

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Note that the plan here would be to FARM the lakeside Horses. :crazyeye:


Ligurian was down, at one point, to 4% Japanese.

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Now it's back up to 8%, so they must have some culture going in there now.

I was hoping we might flip it, but LOOK at that garrison in there now! Grenadier! :eek:

We need some more units down there. Like, soon. Send a couple of Jumbos with the shooters?
We'll be OK once we get Rifles, of course. We can use the draft, judiciously in some of our mid-size cities, for rapid deployment.


Now notice the 117 bankroll in that last pic? Check this out:

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I got Fred to fork over three C-notes. :mischief:

Since that worked so well, I decided to ask Cyrus, too.

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However, pressing Liz failed.

Next player has 7 C-notes to toy around with. I tried to use them as padding to get Cyrus to trade us Constitution for Rep Parts, but it's not enough.
 
I was handed two settlers, almost in position, and I hand off two settlers almost in position.
That's a net gain of six cities on my round.

I have two more settlers JUST starting. More could be ordered up in place of workers.

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You could also can cel these builds if you choose, Strauss.
However, there are only a few dots left on the map to grab.

There are no dots left in the northeast!

Banana Splitsville and Dark Gray Dot already have settlers en route:

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The two white circled regions are extremely barren on food.

The pink circled region has a Cow and some forests, but is low risk, low priority.

New Dark Blue is low risk as well, and can wait for Tatran or Iustus.

The northwest has at most one more city spot:

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Up in the white circled region. I think there is one site left up there? Unmarked, undotted.

Cyrus may go for it soon, though. Look at all his new cities I circled.
He is running out of room!

So in all of the north, northwest, northeast, there is at most one dot left at risk.


The south got neglected on my turn, as I secured all we still wanted in the north.

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Oakland is the only city I founded down there, although I did send troops.

Green, White, and Red dots would all be worth grabbing.
Maybe have Houston and Seattle train settlers, in addition to NYC and Atlanta?
After their current projects finish, that is.

Note that the FORBIDDEN PALACE will complete next turn in Buffalo.

There may also be a site or two south of Memphis, but we as yet have no military down there.
I did not even try to look in that direction, but next player or two can think about it.

Look at that dominating Mali presence. All from a single city! :eek:


Our military roster, now with eighteen Muskets and twenty-two workers:

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The Engineer is in New York.

We are also at a point at which further leaders (except Engineers) should be used on GOLDEN AGES. :whipped:
 
* We need to get a few more Monastaries up before we hit Scientific Method.
After that, it will forever be too late!
We need more Bhuddist Monastaries on our fringes.
We need more Taoist Monastaries, period.
I've started some Hindu Monastaries. A couple more of those (just in case) wouldn't hurt.
Now that we have high shields, we can afford to spend a few turns on a Monastary!

* As I mentioned, save leaders for golden ages!

* We might be able to convert Cyrus to Free Religion by sending a single Taoist missionary!

* Fred might change if we send a Hindu and a Taoist. The Hindu is already in production.
However we lacked any Taoist presence near him.
Need to spread Taoism a bit more within our OWN borders!

* Definitely want Wall Street in DC, so its National Wonder pairs are locked.

* NYC looks like the best site for going for Statue of Liberty. Start thinking along those lines.
I think we have a shot at it, and how awesome would that be with our Representative govt!
The only reason I'm still going on Rifle tech is the military safety of it, plus we can trade it for Constitution.
I don't think Mansa or Liz have Democracy yet, as nobody has gone Emancipation.
Plus, building the Statue of Liberty in NEW YORK CITY is just too aesthetically pleasing. :cooool:


Now for the gratuitous free camera shots.


The South:

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The West:

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New England:

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The American Breadbasket:

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The United States of the Highlands:

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Grab the Save!


- Sirian
 
It's looking good. The final race will probably be between Mansa and us, unless some major war shakes things up.

Got it, and will play this after I finish my SGOTM turnset. I *should* be able to get to both games tonight.
 
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I found Oblivion to be the best game I've played since Half Life (the original) in 1998. Sure, the leveling system throws realism out the window, but who cares about THAT? I'm there for the gameplay, and that's just superb.

Let me explain:
Spoiler :
I like the game, no question. But the leveling system really spoiled some of my enjoyment. It requires too much manual notetaking and careful control of what you do in order to not waste attribute increases.

First, a quick note on how it works. When you raise 10 points combined in all your major skills, you level. When you level, then you get to pick 3 attributes to raise. You can always raise any attribute by at least 1 each level, so worst case, you raise 3 attributes by one each, each time you level. This is very sub-optimal however. The best you can do is raise each attribute by 5 each time you level (except luck, which always is only 1 per level).

Example:
Blade, Mysticism are major skills, Blunt, Destruction, Security, Sneak are not.

In one level, you raise the following skills:
Blade+5, Mysticism+5 (all your major skills will always total to 10 for each level),
Blunt +5, Destruction +10, Security+2, Sneak+2.

Your total number of skill ups for each attribute are:
Str: 10 (Blade and Blunt)
Int: 5 (Mysticism)
Will: 10 (Destruction)
AGI: 4 (Security and Sneak)
Spd: 0
End: 0
Pers: 0

When you can choose 3 of the following skill raises:
(the formula is 1-4:2, 5-7:3, 8-9:4, 10:5)
Str: +5
Int: +3
Will: +5
AGI: +2
Spd: +1
End: +1
Pers: +1
Luck: +1

Now, if you play without regard for this system, which is the most enjoyible way to play, your character will never reach his full potential. Depending on your race/class/birthsign combination the maximum character level is late 30s to mid 40s. If you play without regard to the attribute bonuses each level, you will get lots of +2s, a few +3s, and almost zero +4s and +5s. This will make it impossible for you to maximize all your attributes before you maximize your level.

On the other hand. If you keep meticulous track of which skills you are raising, when you raise them, and are very careful not to raise the wrong skills at the wrong times, you can easily maximize all your attributes. Luck is the big wrench thrown into the works. If you want to get to max luck, you probably have to pick the right class/race/birthsign combination. There is one birthsign that is something like +20 luck, this will save you 20 levels, and is probably the only way to maximize it. If you are careful about your birthsign, make a custom class with properly chosen main attributes and major skills, you can maximize your attributes by your late 20s or early 30s.

That is what I do not like. I would much prefer one of the mods that totally removes the link between leveling and attribute gains. The change makes it so that each time you skill up any skill, the attribute associated with that skill goes up automatically (fractionally). So, regardless of your major skills, regardless of your level, as you raise blade skill, your strength will automatically go up. Now, this change does have certain negative consequences. It makes it so that attributes become extensions of skills, and the player does not have much choice in specializing in them. But that is a price worth paying to avoid the tedium of the current system.

I realize that some people just ignore the system, take the attribute bonuses they are offered and play on their merry way. That is the way to play to have the most fun. Even when I try, I just cannot manage to do this. I am constantly trying to direct what I do in the game, when I fight, when I talk to npcs, when I cast spells, what spells I cast, to make sure I do not raise the wrong skill at the wrong time. That ruins the fun for me.

To summarize, my problem with the leveling system is that it causes you to choose between either focusing on a limited range of allowed actions at any one time, or sacrifice potential of your character that you will never be able to gain back. The difference between a character with an average of about 100 in all stats and an average of about 50 or less in all stats is enormous.


Alright, on to the game!

Glad to see Oakland survived!

1786AD: Brunel born in Chicago.
Mansa has rifling now, right? All our friends are his friends, he will trade it to anyone we might trade it to, if he is given a chance. If we want to get the statue of liberty, we need to follow some plan without deviation to get it. Since it seems we have quite a bit invested in Rifling, we should continue on that path, but keep watching to see if he traded rifling to everyone with Constitution. It would be fantastic if we could trade Rifling to one person for Consitution, then trade it to someone else the next turn for Democracy, but that does not seem very likely. I think we are going to have to get some kind of n-fer trade in order to get to Democracy in time.

If we do happen to get Democracy first, do not switch to emancipation (is that an allowed civic?) until after we have the statue, to discourage others from researching it.

I have Buddhist and Taoist missionaries heading for Aryan.

Not to be too much of a critic, but why give his culture city that much more culture? I would have prefered to spread religion to cities further from our borders. Giving him triple the culture buildings to build might be painful.

I founded six new cities, with two settlers en route to the last two worthwhile sites in the north.

Fantastic. I think our land grab has been quite successful. We need some border pops to close up the gaps, and really feel secure, but I am pretty happy with how things have gone. We really want to watch culture on the western borders with Cyrus's branch into our lands. Remember monastaries are very cheep buildings and have decent culture output. Building something in the far northwest might help avoid another Cyrus city in between ours.

I hope we can get those cities in the south, to secure that area, especially green dot. I would like green and white dot first, red dot would be nice if we can get it, but I would not like red dot if we lost green and white, we are pretty open out there, green and white would make us a lot more secure at oakland, perhaps even flipping Reading eventually.

-Iustus
 
Iustus said:
Not to be too much of a critic, but why give his culture city that much more culture? I would have prefered to spread religion to cities further from our borders. Giving him triple the culture buildings to build might be painful.

It was the only city remotely anywhere near in range. It was the only opportunity to get him to convert NOW, not in twenty or thirty turns, meaning we are more or less safe from attack by him NOW, while we are vulnerable, because we're more friendly with him. It was the only opportunity to close the deal on my round and not hand off complicated plans.

I realize my move has a down side, but you've got to break some eggs to make an omelette. There won't be that much additional culture. 2cpt from the extra two religions, BUT we get to spy on him there now. Maybe 2cpt from temples, if he builds them. Maybe he could put a Cathedral there at some point, but first he'd have to spread the religions to more of his cities and how does he do THAT without any Monastaries of those types, being locked in Free Religion Civic and having already learned SciMeth? (He did not already have these religions anywhere, or he'd have converted on his own much sooner!)

So, 2 to 4 extra CPT for him there. If that breaks anything of ours, then we deserved to have it broken. :lol: Others may see it differently, of course, but I still think it was right move.


Now in trying to convert Cyrus, it would probably be better to send the missionaries an extra five or six tiles to a back line city. I'll grant you that! :cool:


Iustus said:
Let me explain:
Spoiler :
On the other hand. If you keep meticulous track of which skills you are raising, when you raise them, and are very careful not to raise the wrong skills at the wrong times, you can easily maximize all your attributes.

...

Even when I try, I just cannot manage to do this. I am constantly trying to direct what I do in the game, when I fight, when I talk to npcs, when I cast spells, what spells I cast, to make sure I do not raise the wrong skill at the wrong time. That ruins the fun for me.

My reply:
Spoiler :
Fair enough. However, the system is nowhere near that tight. You can burn forty or fifty skill-ups for any given trait and still max your char. So truly, even if you cannot avoid micromanaging your skills, you don't have to be quite that picky about what you're doing.

* What do you need Personality for? We are talking about MAXING your char, right? Well, Mercantile skill of 100 lets you buy and sell at true cost, without any consideration of Personality. The lower your personality, the EASIER it is to make effective use of Speechcraft skill. Unless Illusion is a primary skill for you, you can skip it entirely. It's of no consequence.

* What do you need Luck for? I've never maxed my Luck. My goal is to focus on using certain skills, not on getting my Luck to 100. When you realize how much gameplay you unlock with some of the Great Power birthsigns, you don't need luck anyway. All it does is make everything a little easier.

* What do you need Agility for? Unless you are playing a Thief or Assassin, sneaking all over the place, the only thing you get out of it is reduced "knockback" during combat. ... WHY do you want to reduce that? To make the melee fighting easier? ... Fine. Say you want to take the combat in to the boring range and never get in to trouble over a lucky enemy hit. Sneak, Marksman and Security are all easily controlled skills. You won't do any by accident. Remember, you can burn several dozen points without losing the chance to reach 100 Agi, so you can safely lockpick most of the time. Most chars will have some Alteration going for the Feather spells, to carry more loot out of dungeons with less tedium. You can pop most locks with Magic, and you can pop one Hard lock a day for free if you visit the Tower stone and pick up some undocumented Greater Powers. It's the easiest stone to find, too, and right there across the water from "home base" on the waterfront.

* What do you need Intelligence for? Mana. You'll focus on that if you're a mage. If you aren't, who cares about it. ... Suppose you do care, though. Fine. Run off ten levels of potions at a time, here or there. And if you ARE a mage, you'll be using Conjuration and Mysticism, most likely. If not, you can focus on them now and then, and you'll probably have higher starting Int so you won't have as far to go as a fighter type would.

* What do you need Wisdom for? Mana recovery. Same story as Int, except fighters need some Healing and some Feather, and will end up raising Wisdom by accident. Of course, you can build your char to use Powers for healing instead, or potions. If you do, your fighter won't care about Wisdom either.

* What do you need Strength for? If you're not killing things in melee, then it's only to carry stuff. Your mage can EASILY avoid engaging anything in melee, though, and "train" melee skills during regular gameplay now and then, if desired. Yet you can get so much Feather power going with a strong mage, you'll have more carrying capacity than the burly fighter types weak in potions and magic! You'll have to purposely AVOID spending stat-ups on Str if you want to get strong Int and Wis going to make you a potent mage.


Endurance is the one stat that is more or less "must have", and the earlier you focus on it, the more total Hit Points your char will end up with. Yet you can train five points per level, if you have the money, and you'll WANT to train Armorer far enough to repair your own magic gear. ... OK, so here you have a point. You'll have to go out of your way to "train" yourself in Block or Heavy Armor if you're a magely type. You can "train" in the Armor by fighting in the Arena, though, where you HAVE TO wear armor to compete. You can "train" block while using Touch-based attack spells. Or you can choose to play as a fighter type for a few minutes here or there. It's a problem, but you don't have to keep meticulous track of things.

Thief types will probably be using Light Armor, but again, can train on Heavy Armor in the arena, and "go fighter" now and then. If your char starts with Armorer, Block and Heavy all at 5, you can add THIRTY points of Endurance just getting them to 25. You won't cary if you pick up a couple levels of Armorer repairing your gear, or a couple levels of Block during fighting, while focusing on other skills.

Meanwhile, for fighter types, they'll all need Block and Armorer, even if not chosen as Major skills. They can "slip on" some looted heavy armors even if Light Armor is their primary skill (like for my Barbarian).


You DO have to "pick" some skills/stats to focus on for each level, and to spend some effort avoiding certain skills, but only when they are at such low levels that "incidental" use could raise them five or ten points. Once any skill reachs 25 or so, incidental use would only burn a couple of points, and you can always afford to do that! It's not that tedious. You dump all your loot outside the shops in a pile in town and wait for a level where you want to raise Personality before selling it off. You save some of the "get people to like you" quests for the levels when you are selling stuff. You save the arena combats for levels when you want to raise Heavy Armor (or Light Armor). You save money by delaying House purchases (except for the Waterfront) to spend on Training sessions, and you train what would be the most tedious skills to raise manually, like Armorer, Athletics, Mercantile, maybe Block or a weapon skill.

The key is understanding a couple of things:
* You really DO NOT need a maxed out char.
* You can afford to raise a few skill points in areas you are not focusing on. There is room to spare!
* Endurance does need some special attention. However, you can build most of it in to regular gameplay, minimizing the "tedium" periods to just a couple of short sessions at worst.
* You don't need to worry about anything else. Choose the gameplay you want for your character and do that. Slip in "focusing on" a trait that is minor for that build only when it naturally fits with what you are doing anyway, and the rest will take care of itself.
* Stop trying to build the Jack-of-Everything character. Make a fighter who doesn't even join the Mages Guild or Thieves Guild. Make a mage who doesn't care about or need Strength and melee weapons. Design a whole character with the gameplay in mind, a package of skills and birthsign and guild memberships and quest choices that fits seamlessly together, where a few stats are key and easy to raise, while other stats can afford to languish. Move on to a NEW char, starting over, when that char gets high enough to where he/she starts to morph in to an uberchar because there's nowhere else left to go.


Anyway, that's what worked for me, to the tune of more than a dozen builds played to high levels.



- Sirian
 
More Oblivion discussion:

Spoiler :
You DO have to "pick" some skills/stats to focus on for each level, and to spend some effort avoiding certain skills, but only when they are at such low levels that "incidental" use could raise them five or ten points. Once any skill reachs 25 or so, incidental use would only burn a couple of points, and you can always afford to do that! It's not that tedious. You dump all your loot outside the shops in a pile in town and wait for a level where you want to raise Personality before selling it off. You save some of the "get people to like you" quests for the levels when you are selling stuff. You save the arena combats for levels when you want to raise Heavy Armor (or Light Armor). You save money by delaying House purchases (except for the Waterfront) to spend on Training sessions, and you train what would be the most tedious skills to raise manually, like Armorer, Athletics, Mercantile, maybe Block or a weapon skill.

What you say sounds appealing until you get into the details, as you say here. For me, with the utility I wrote, what you specify here is not 'that' far away from what I ended up doing. I am enough of a perfectionist that if I can work just a bit harder to be just a bit better, I do it.

I never finished all the content when I played. My character was 32 or so, had 100 in every stat, 100 in just about every skill, and was incredibly powerful. I was past all the tedium of leveling, and planning to explore all the content but I got bored. Part of that was that I discovered that the spell creation is not balanced, particularly because of the spell stacking.

My character on his own is pretty powerful, but when you add a few custom spells, he became near godly. I might have to launch the game to remember all the details but I remember it vaguely. One spell I made was a combo regen/fatigue regen spell which I found to be incredibly powerful. I think it was something like 1 or 2 health regen and 5 or 10 fatigue regen, with the max duration you can make a spell, 2 min? I made 2 min versions of the various vision/light combinations for various situations. A 2 min invis. A 2 min speed spell. A 2 min max feather spell. (Although this is one case where the store bought spells are better).

That was where things started to get silly. I discovered that 2 spells with the same effect, but different names, stack effects. So you can make a Feather 100 One, Feather 100 Two, Feather 100 Three, Feather 100 Four, Feather 100 Five, etc spells. Stack a few and you can carry anything. (This was a carry over from stacking different feather potions, which also works, and is easier to do, and more effective if you dont mind using potions, because feather potions go up to 300 or 400 or so).

And then I found something really silly. You can make a +100 Speed spell which will make you run fast. You can make about 8 of these, and if you cast them all at once, you will be the flash, running much faster than someone on a horse does. Make the first one also give water walking and you can run on water.

How do you cast all these spells? When a 2 min duration +100 Speed spell is like 300 mana or something?

Make a +100 mana spell (or was it +INT, I forgot), make a bunch of them. You can easily get your mana pool well over 1000 by casting a few, the more you cast, the more effective casting more of them is, because mana regen is based on your total mana pool. Get your mana pool up over 1000 and your regen rate will be so high that you will never be able to run out (until the spells wear off), you will only have to wait a second or so to gain back the 300 mana cost of those huge spells.

Which lets you make some super kill spells that cost 700-1000 mana. I made one spell that did 200 of each type of damage, it was pretty silly.

You may call all that cheating, it certainly is at least a minor exploit, but it was fun to do for a brief time. After that, I stuck with the regular custom spells for health/fatigue, vision/light, (and some flash running to get around I must admit) etc, but even using those, which were not exploits, I just played less and less until now, when I have not played for months.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great game. I loved playing it for about 2 months. But I think it would have been even better with some changes to the leveling system. Just decoupling attribute gain from leveling would be a huge win. Or even just include a 'rollover', so unused bonuses will continue into the next level. If you have to reduce the max to +4 or even +3 per level, that would be fine by me, it would be even less I would have to worry about.

On the subject of endurance, I would change it so that endurance gains retroactively effect your hit points, so again, you do not lose out irrovocably if you do not start with the highest endurance possible, and increase endurance by 5 every level thereafter. (In my character, I think I hit max endurance in my teens, because I was so worried about this).

I like that what actions you do determines what skills you level. What I do not like is the permanent negative consequences to making a particular choice. I would prefer a system that would let you make it up later.


already learned SciMeth

Wow, I did not realize he was that advanced! He is shooting away from everyone then. If we are going to be competative on score, we really need to pick up the pace, so we do not lose all the wonders.

I would like to see us build 2 monastaries in those border towns, that is 4 culture/turn even without modifiers. With all our shared borders on lots of cities, Eiffel Tower would be nice.

-Iustus
 
Iustus said:
More Oblivion discussion:

Spoiler :
I never finished all the content when I played. My character was 32 or so, had 100 in every stat, 100 in just about every skill, and was incredibly powerful. I was past all the tedium of leveling, and planning to explore all the content but I got bored.

Reply:
Spoiler :
Duh.

So here's a question. If I forced RBCiv tournament games to use a mod that had a "God Mode" button, which you push and instantly win the EVENT, much less the game. ... Would you push it? First one to push it and post "Game Complete" takes first place. Would you be there waiting for the game to download, so you could be the winner? ... How many times would you do that?

Suppose I revealed a cheat code for Civ4 whose use cannot be detected? Would you employ that?

A "minor exploit" you say. *shaking head* It broke the game for you. That's hardly minor.

You had ONE character. You thought that if you "get the leveling stuff out of the way" then you could enjoy the game. ... Really now. Stop and think that through. The game is about the journey, not the destination. You did your level best to turn on god mode, to take every advantage you could get and make the most of them. You might as well have been playing Civ4 on Chieftain AND using cheat codes to boot. That's also possible, why is it that you can avoid that but not avoid doing essentially the same thing to Oblivion? That kind of approach can ruin any game, and it's on the player, not the game itself.

Because in the end, that button that says, Push Me to Win, might as well be relabeled to say, Push Me to Stop the Fun.


Duplicate spells are an obvious hole in the game. Avoiding that kind of game killer should be easy. You say you did it, but it was already too late. Your character was up past the game portion of the game and in to the boring mop up phase. ... Trying to rush through the fun part to get to the equivalent of the Civ4 cakewalk modern age, wiping up ten or twelve AIs on a huge map who are all, like, three ages behind you in military tech, is a poster child for self-sabotage. ... No offense intended. :)

I agree that it's impossible not to want to get more out of the stat/skill system once you understand it. I tried to ignore it, but I couldn't either. Yet completely ignoring it and completely succumbing to its various temptations are not the only options. There's lots of middle ground, and I found enormous fun romping around in there.


I'll let you in on a secret. They intentionally left holes in the design. There's a large teen audience (and some adults) who crave outside validation. They want to have, but don't care about being or doing. They will readily use cheat codes, "trainers", hacks, other people's chars, or whatever they can to "be more powerful" in a game. They think it's the coolest thing in the world that they can do all the things you spelled out. Their money is as good as yours or mine.

Yet this game served me well because it doesn't take much discipline to enjoy.

Play a two-handed Warrior (stock Warrior class!) who uses a lot of power attacks. You'll kill stuff in a few hits and gain skill-ups in your weapon skills a lot more slowly. You'll HAVE TO divide stats between Str and End, getting only +2 or +3 apiece, not maxing either until about clvl 17. You won't have uber stats across the board because you can only raise one other stat per level. Only repair the gear you're using, so your Armorer skill doesn't get out in front of your weapon skill. Take Lord or Ritual birthsign so you have lower stats but non-spell healing on hand. Go straight for the main quest and do about half of it before you pause to do other things. That way, you'll get in to fights that are actually difficult and make you think, but aren't tediously hard. The fight with Ruma Camoran and crew might humble you a bit, if you get there too quickly. :lol:

See, you did the opposite of what is the most fun. You rushed through improving your character, looking for power. That's a trap. Create a character who has a certain way of doing things, and stick to that M.O., and the journey will become something memorable instead of something tedious.


You certainly missed out on most of this game. You didn't even know who the Arena Grand Champion is, much less how difficult and fun it was for me to come up with a build who could beat him straight up while still level three.

There's too much content to experience with one character anyway. Much better than one uberchar is to play a fighter who does the fighter thing, a mage who does the mage thing, etc, and not blur the lines.


Variantism is a mindset. At times, I've seen you struggling with that mindset here in this game (the SG), tempted to min/max past the boundaries. You seem to be growing more comfortable with the boundaries I set, though. Does this represent learning something? Or merely adapting over time?



- Sirian
 
More Oblivion:
Spoiler :
I'll let you in on a secret. They intentionally left holes in the design. There's a large teen audience (and some adults) who crave outside validation. They want to have, but don't care about being or doing. They will readily use cheat codes, "trainers", hacks, other people's chars, or whatever they can to "be more powerful" in a game. They think it's the coolest thing in the world that they can do all the things you spelled out.

It is all well and good to leave in ways for people to invoke 'god mode'. If you are willing to use a mod someone wrote, you can do anything you want, and thats fine with me. But I do not think the basic game should be designed in a way where the player has to choose between fun and character power.

For example, lets say there is a room you can go to, where you can just click a button over and over. Nothing happens other than clicking this button. Every 1000 times you click, a random attribute (or skill, or whatever), goes up. Now if you want, you can ignore this room, and play through the game without it, no worries. But if you want to be more powerful, you can go into this room and practice up, and become much more powerful. Ugh.

That is what I think of the leveling system. It is just a poor design. It forces the player to make choices that he should not have to make.

It is all well and good to make up your own varient of Oblivon where you have to ignore what skills you are using, and just level up as you do naturally, ignoring the mechanics, and frankly, that is what I would do if I decide to play some more, but the design is poor when you have to invent such a varient in order to avoid the tedium.

A Civ4 example would be if the governors were intentially designed to always pick the 2nd best plot to work. If you wanted the best performance from your cities, you would have to manually pick the plots in each city, each time the city grew, or you built a new building or wonder that effected specialists. You can either play ignoring it, and get suboptimal behavior, or do tedious bookkeeping to optimise your play.

Computers are a whole lot better at the tedious bookkeeping that people are, they should be used to do it, so the player is free to have fun.

See, you did the opposite of what is the most fun. You rushed through improving your character, looking for power. That's a trap. Create a character who has a certain way of doing things, and stick to that M.O., and the journey will become something memorable instead of something tedious.

That is a habit I learned in Everquest. In that game, there are no big exploits. You can just grind out experience in one spot though. I learned to despise doing that, prefering to move around and do quests to level up. Something that works even better in Everquest2. That is what I was doing in Oblivon, questing. I did tons of quests. I would almost never go anywhere without a quest to direct me that way. That was fun. What was not fun was having to switch from light to heavy armor, or repair or not repair armor, or use or not use this spell, because of the leveling strategy.

You certainly missed out on most of this game. You didn't even know who the Arena Grand Champion is, much less how difficult and fun it was for me to come up with a build who could beat him straight up while still level three.

I do not think I missed most of the content. The arena sub-quests were one that I did not pursue much. I was getting to the end of the mage guild, warrior guild and main line quests though. I maxed out my alchemy skill, learning a lot about how all the various components work, in various combinations. I did a ton of experimentation with the spell creating system. I did get a bit held up farming oblivion gates for the stones you use to enchant items. Another EQ habit, farming loot spots.

There's too much content to experience with one character anyway. Much better than one uberchar is to play a fighter who does the fighter thing, a mage who does the mage thing, etc, and not blur the lines.

I do not know if I agree with that. Everquest had thousands of quests and I was one of the few who did almost every one of them with one character. I suppose in the strictest sense it is true, for example I never intended to explore either the thieves guild or assassins guild areas, since that was out of character. I was a bit up in the air about the morality of those, I forgot the term, demigod quests from those altars. But if I had been willing to forgo the mindset I was trying to play my character with, I definitely could have explored all of these quest lines as well.

Variantism is a mindset. At times, I've seen you struggling with that mindset here in this game (the SG), tempted to min/max past the boundaries. You seem to be growing more comfortable with the boundaries I set, though. Does this represent learning something? Or merely adapting over time?

It is definitely a mindset I struggle with, but I see the advantages. I do not know if it is learning or adapting or just becoming more comfortable around specific people, so becoming more open, less trying to impress.

With RPGs, be it Ultima, Everquest or Oblivion or whatever, I virtually always only play one character, almost always a variation within that game of the same character. Call it habit, comfort zone, what is fun, or my alter ego, whatever, that is just the way I have always done it. I am not sure I want to change.

Now I could see playing Oblivion again with different constraints on how I would level, and so on. But I am not sure I would change what type of character I played.


-I
 
Oh, why not!
Spoiler :
I love Oblivion, if I'm not playing Civ4 I'm playing Oblivion. However, my major gripe is how the monsters level is in relation to yours. In combination with the weird leveling system you can really screw your character up.

When I first played the game I created a "Sniper" type character. Dark Elf that was focused on marksmanship and sneak. It was simply amazing for the first 15 levels. I could kill almost everything in about 2-3 hits. However, I got level ups very fast in my major skills and so I leveled very fast. Around level20 **** hit the fan and it was literaly taking me 10-15 shots to kill any monster. It got so ridiculous that I had to lower the difficulty slider just to make the game playable.

The leveling system is kinda counter-intuitive. You'd think that you'd want the skills you use the most as your major skills. But if you do that you'll find around lv15-20 that the monsters become incredibly tough. So its almost neccessary to add major skills that you'll hardly use and use those as controls for leveling.

Besides that, great game :P


Hate to hijack :/ maybe this should be taken to GD forums :P
 
bandits in glass armor.... nuff said.:lol:


Btw this is an amazing game to alt in. sirian, your reports are so over the top as usual such that posts like

I've played. Report will not be up until tomorrow, though.

would ilicit grumbles from me normally.... but alas I realize you would be spending a ton of time preparing an entire page of turn logs.:)


Cheers!
-Liq
 
sigmakan said:
Hate to hijack :/

No worries. A little sidebar discussion is more or less an RB tradition. Our forum has full threading (for those who turn it on -- the poor folks who read everything sequentially may get confused) precisely so that subthreads can coexist peacefully within a main thread.


Liq said:
this is an amazing game to alt in. sirian, your reports are so over the top...

We haven't called on the Alts at all yet. Not looking like we will, although right after I say something like that, the need often presents itself almost immediately. Heh.

Glad you are enjoying the reading, though.


Took me most of an hour poring over the map before I started to change things and play my round. It's a big world with a lot of stuff happening! I'm sure Strauss will come along shortly and save you from more of my gab. :lol:


- Sirian
 
Strauss said:
Got it, and will play this after I finish my SGOTM turnset. I *should* be able to get to both games tonight.
Team Chaos, right ? :shake:
Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem. :D
 
Tatran said:
Team Chaos, right ? :shake:
Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem. :D

Do you want me to apply my :whipped: here too?

---------------------------------------------------------
Turn 1 (1802): Forbidden Palace finishes in Buffalo. Increase research to 50%, Rifling in 16 turns. I will shift a bit during the coming turns since this rate is not sustainable for long.

Turn 2 (1804): Hunt Valley founded at Banana Site. Buddhism spread to London.

rb20huntvalley.jpg


IBT 3:
Refuse Peter’s request for Divine Right.

Turn 3 (1806): Washington finishes National Epic. Found Springfield on Light Gray Dot.

Turn 4 (1808):
Send Settlers from New York and Atlanta to Green, White and Red Dots. Start another Settler in Atlanta for the remaining Dot. Jalal-Al-Din-Rumi (Great Artist)born in San Fransisco.

Turn 9 (1814): England has occupied Green Dot. Move newest Settler from Atlanta back to Dark Blue Dot as I don’t think we can settle the south at the moment.

Turn 10 (1815): A Horse Archer beats our Musket and I need to bring in reinforcements to protect Workers and Settlers near White Dot.

Turn 11 (1816): Genghis demands we cancel deals with Mansa. Are ya kiddin’? :lol:. Japan’s Golden Age begins. I found Palo Alto on White Dot.

Turn 14 (1819): Centralia founded on Dark Blue Dot. This leaves Red Dot (Settler already approaching), Dark Gray Dot, Black Dot, the area in the northwest and *maybe* one city in the south if Greece or Germany doesn't get there first.

rb20centralia1819.jpg


IBT 15:
Trade Dyes to Mansa for Gems.

Turn 15 (1820): Spread Hinduism to Essen.

rb20world1.jpg


rb20world2.jpg


EDIT: The save won't upload at the moment. Apparently there is something wrong with the new upload system? It doesn't allow me to load up .Civ4SavedGame
 
If you use the default civ4 save, you'll get an error message.
But if you zip the file or rename the extension of the file
to Civ4SavedGame, it will work.
 
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