Aggie
Deity
OK Jack, thank you for pointing these things out 
So that means that we won't trade pillaging?
So that means that we won't trade pillaging?
RBC12F - Fall of Rome Ostrogoths (demigod)
- Thread starter jack merchant
- Start date
jack merchant
Internationalist
Not unless we get a good amount of money from it .
.
Aggie
Deity
It appears that no-one wants to join 
Kabuki
Viking Expatriate
If you need a fourth (fifth?) I wouldn't mind being it, I'm already in RBC12H (Anglo-Saxons), but I don't mind playing in a second game. Caveat, I would definatly be playing at a higher level than what I'm comfortable with, so only if you feel you need someone for the last slot and don't mind doing a little baby-sitting.
jack merchant
Internationalist
I don't mind at all, actually, and would be happy to have you .
I actually already played the next 10 turns, but would be happy to slot you in right away too.
.I actually already played the next 10 turns, but would be happy to slot you in right away too.
Aggie
Deity
Jack, why not post your ten first and then Kabuki can play after a discussion of what to do next
jack merchant
Internationalist
OK, here goes:
384 AD (1) Barbaria Leadership comes in, we have the Scourge of God due in 14 in Reidhgotaland. Dampstadhir completes a Pillager, I will set it to a temple now as it needs better tiles to work with. Bairauja is also swapped from a pillager to a worker due next turn; it will be useless if we don't get some of its hills mined.
Science to Sacking due in 16 at 60% at a tiny surplus.
386 AD (2) I go and sell Barbarian Leadership around for Mathematics, Code of Laws and a Vandal and Anglo-saxon worker (the Anglo-Saxon worker was purchased from the Vandals too - we can safely assume they're at war) plus some gold.
388 AD (3) Galtis pillager-worker. Science can go up to 70% to get Sacking in 11 now with help from a scientist in Hreidmare (which we can't otherwise keep happy).
390 AD (4) Maps sell for 11 gold this turn (we can now sell them to the Huns too).
392 AD (5) Western Rome extorts us for tm+29 gold. Having no way to determine exactly how dangerous they are, I give in and make a mental note to add them to the 'list' only to find out they're already on there
.
IT Our scouts do indeed spot Vandals and Anglo-Saxons fighting. Sassanids start Justinian's Leadership, which puts a barracks in every city.
394 AD (6)
396 AD (7) Eygoth completes pillager, of which we now have 5 (one of which is doing MP duty in Hreidmare. Forest chop to speed up Dampstadhir temple completes.
Most Barbarian tribes have Mapmaking now except for Celts - we're up CoL and BL over Celts so hopefully we can trade for it once they pick it up. Our map fetches 43 gold and the Frankish TM.
398 AD (8) Hreidmare temple - pillager. Scientist is fired, making no difference to the Sacking ETA. Furs online in 4.
400 AD (9) Maps fetch TMs of the Vandals, Anglo-Saxons and Visigoths. We notice there are a few tribes lacking iron.
402 AD (10) Luxes up to 30% to keep our size-10 capital happy. The Scourge of God is due in 2 at 14spt.
We have 5 pillagers with 3 more due in 4 turns; we could launch our assault on Visigoths then with the Pillager from Hreidmare and two spare raiders which I brought back from scouting west to cover our northern flank from the Visigoth cities there while we march down the Black Sea coast with 6 pillagers in all (which should be ample).
Alternatively, we could pillage our iron, run all cash for a few turns after Sacking comes inn and build raiders for upgrade instead (or sell off our lone iron and the surplus horse for tech). I would also suggest building 1 or 2 Migrants out of Reidhgotaland once the SoG is done to lower the lux tax we need to run to keep it alone happy and to increase our long-term economic strength. I'd settle one city between Hreidmare and Cnivastavs and another one directly north of Reidhgotaland.
save
384 AD (1) Barbaria Leadership comes in, we have the Scourge of God due in 14 in Reidhgotaland. Dampstadhir completes a Pillager, I will set it to a temple now as it needs better tiles to work with. Bairauja is also swapped from a pillager to a worker due next turn; it will be useless if we don't get some of its hills mined.
Science to Sacking due in 16 at 60% at a tiny surplus.
386 AD (2) I go and sell Barbarian Leadership around for Mathematics, Code of Laws and a Vandal and Anglo-saxon worker (the Anglo-Saxon worker was purchased from the Vandals too - we can safely assume they're at war) plus some gold.
388 AD (3) Galtis pillager-worker. Science can go up to 70% to get Sacking in 11 now with help from a scientist in Hreidmare (which we can't otherwise keep happy).
390 AD (4) Maps sell for 11 gold this turn (we can now sell them to the Huns too).
392 AD (5) Western Rome extorts us for tm+29 gold. Having no way to determine exactly how dangerous they are, I give in and make a mental note to add them to the 'list' only to find out they're already on there
.IT Our scouts do indeed spot Vandals and Anglo-Saxons fighting. Sassanids start Justinian's Leadership, which puts a barracks in every city.
394 AD (6)
396 AD (7) Eygoth completes pillager, of which we now have 5 (one of which is doing MP duty in Hreidmare. Forest chop to speed up Dampstadhir temple completes.
Most Barbarian tribes have Mapmaking now except for Celts - we're up CoL and BL over Celts so hopefully we can trade for it once they pick it up. Our map fetches 43 gold and the Frankish TM.
398 AD (8) Hreidmare temple - pillager. Scientist is fired, making no difference to the Sacking ETA. Furs online in 4.
400 AD (9) Maps fetch TMs of the Vandals, Anglo-Saxons and Visigoths. We notice there are a few tribes lacking iron.
402 AD (10) Luxes up to 30% to keep our size-10 capital happy. The Scourge of God is due in 2 at 14spt.
We have 5 pillagers with 3 more due in 4 turns; we could launch our assault on Visigoths then with the Pillager from Hreidmare and two spare raiders which I brought back from scouting west to cover our northern flank from the Visigoth cities there while we march down the Black Sea coast with 6 pillagers in all (which should be ample).
Alternatively, we could pillage our iron, run all cash for a few turns after Sacking comes inn and build raiders for upgrade instead (or sell off our lone iron and the surplus horse for tech). I would also suggest building 1 or 2 Migrants out of Reidhgotaland once the SoG is done to lower the lux tax we need to run to keep it alone happy and to increase our long-term economic strength. I'd settle one city between Hreidmare and Cnivastavs and another one directly north of Reidhgotaland.
save
jack merchant
Internationalist
And the cities I'd suggest we place:
(pardon my poor dotmapping skills)
(pardon my poor dotmapping skills)
Aggie
Deity
Jack, I believe that pillaging the iron is against the RBCiv rules! For the rest I am now studying the save...
EDIT: Hmmm...l reading through the rules I don't see this mentioned as exploit
If so, then I don't object.
I agree with the dotmap. But I think that would be all regarding cities we like. We have to be aware that this is a race against time and that we only have 111 turns left and the enemies will only get stronger, especially the Romans.
So how much I like building up a nice empire, I think we should mainly focus on military and expansion. One or two cities from the Visigoths (to start with) can't hurt
EDIT: Hmmm...l reading through the rules I don't see this mentioned as exploit
If so, then I don't object.I agree with the dotmap. But I think that would be all regarding cities we like. We have to be aware that this is a race against time and that we only have 111 turns left and the enemies will only get stronger, especially the Romans.
So how much I like building up a nice empire, I think we should mainly focus on military and expansion. One or two cities from the Visigoths (to start with) can't hurt
jack merchant
Internationalist
It's not strictly Honourable IIRC, but Honourable rules would mean we couldn't declare war either.... 
. I was stupid not to think of this earlier though as the worker near the iron town is mining the iron hill - a bit of a waste now :walbash:.
I think we will get the Scourge of God , so we can turn science off after Sacking comes in (I didn't think it'd be this fast !) for the upgrades since I think our cities aren't quite ready to produce barracks yet. We'll be able to pick up the remaining techs once we get our GA (with the first warlord victory).
We probably do have the time to take out the Visigoth cities south of the Carpathians before we take on Byzantines but I'd vote to leave the rest until later as the Byzantines are already at 10,500 culture
. The victory screen will remember how many cities they've lost already anyway . IMHO we can go to war by the end of Kabuki's turns then if not earlier.
. I was stupid not to think of this earlier though as the worker near the iron town is mining the iron hill - a bit of a waste now :walbash:.I think we will get the Scourge of God , so we can turn science off after Sacking comes in (I didn't think it'd be this fast !) for the upgrades since I think our cities aren't quite ready to produce barracks yet. We'll be able to pick up the remaining techs once we get our GA (with the first warlord victory).
We probably do have the time to take out the Visigoth cities south of the Carpathians before we take on Byzantines but I'd vote to leave the rest until later as the Byzantines are already at 10,500 culture
. The victory screen will remember how many cities they've lost already anyway . IMHO we can go to war by the end of Kabuki's turns then if not earlier.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Self-pillaging is not a problem at all. Used for upgrade purposes it converts money to shields in a legal way using a conversion factor (upgrading) that is part of the game. In this particular scenario that cost is lowered, suggesting that such upgrades are a 'good idea' in this game.
In a much earlier version it was just too 'cheap' to upgrade, turning a chariot factory into a game-winning horse or knight rush, but the increased price to upgrade took this (mostly) out of the 'cheese' territory. Not only is it not an exploit, it's not dishonorable about it. (That doesn't mean some won't still find it cheesy of course
) Have at it, if you wish.
Good luck,
Charis
In a much earlier version it was just too 'cheap' to upgrade, turning a chariot factory into a game-winning horse or knight rush, but the increased price to upgrade took this (mostly) out of the 'cheese' territory. Not only is it not an exploit, it's not dishonorable about it. (That doesn't mean some won't still find it cheesy of course
) Have at it, if you wish.Good luck,
Charis
Aggie
Deity
Thanks for the clarification Charis 
Aggie
Deity
Don't we have barrcks everywhere but in the city where we build the SoG? And that one MUST get a barracks next. We don't want regular warlords
Indeed, war after 8 - 10 turns should be very possible.Another thing: will we really be lucky and be first to Sacking?
EDIT: Justian's Leadership means that those civs can build heavy Cavalry (5.3.2) and that they are quite advanced in the tech tree!
EDIT2: Thinking about it, I'd like to see us attack the first Visigoth town with 4/5 warlords (which can be the upgrades of Eygoth). That Golden Age has be ours within 5-10 turns imvho
Kabuki
Viking Expatriate
Got it, will play this evening PST.
Comment on the dotmap: No need for spacing. No city will ever need more than 9 tiles to work. So I suggest we just tuck them in with no overlap on the 9 tiles and not worry about the rest. It means a bit more MM at times, but I think we'll benefit from it. I also tend to agree with Aggie on the need for cities - Visigoth ones will do quite nicely...
Self-pillage: Not entirely happy with the concept as I think it is a bit mmm... cheesy? Although Charis' comment means that it is much less so than before (which I have noticed when playing). Btw. it is LKender's rules that don't allow self pillaging. I'll take a close look at the effect of this before I do it, as I'm not sure what the upgrade costs are, and it might not be more efficient for us. Upgrading from pillagers to warlords are a no-brainer, but having the very cost efficient Marauders would be very nice.
Attacking: I think simply attacking with pillagers should do the trick. However if we can afford it, upgrading to warlords is probably a good idea... If we do that and are careful we should be able to keep our momentum moving with the enslavement - marauder ability.
Only thing we seem to be missing are catapults... As we are an infantry army in the first place this shouldn't really mess with our operational tempo and we are going to need them to keep up the skeer later.
Comments? We have a good 6-8 hrs to discuss this before I play.
Comment on the dotmap: No need for spacing. No city will ever need more than 9 tiles to work. So I suggest we just tuck them in with no overlap on the 9 tiles and not worry about the rest. It means a bit more MM at times, but I think we'll benefit from it. I also tend to agree with Aggie on the need for cities - Visigoth ones will do quite nicely...
Self-pillage: Not entirely happy with the concept as I think it is a bit mmm... cheesy? Although Charis' comment means that it is much less so than before (which I have noticed when playing). Btw. it is LKender's rules that don't allow self pillaging. I'll take a close look at the effect of this before I do it, as I'm not sure what the upgrade costs are, and it might not be more efficient for us. Upgrading from pillagers to warlords are a no-brainer, but having the very cost efficient Marauders would be very nice.
Attacking: I think simply attacking with pillagers should do the trick. However if we can afford it, upgrading to warlords is probably a good idea... If we do that and are careful we should be able to keep our momentum moving with the enslavement - marauder ability.
Only thing we seem to be missing are catapults... As we are an infantry army in the first place this shouldn't really mess with our operational tempo and we are going to need them to keep up the skeer later.
Comments? We have a good 6-8 hrs to discuss this before I play.
Aggie
Deity
I assume that the Visigoths are easy targets for us, so why not
However, we could easily produce a couple of migrants in the GA.I like your thinking, but I don't object to either route.
Exactly why I think we can wait 3 turns. We then already will be able to get warlords.
Catapults are indeed very nice to have. They ARE very cheap and some cities can build one per turn in the GA... However, those cities also can build warlords
Like I said: I like your analysis and wish you good luck
jack merchant
Internationalist
Where I said 'barracks' I meant warlords AT 70 shields a pop, you do need some proper cities to build them at a fair pace (which is why I do want the current temple in Dampstadhir completed). Our only really good city is Reidghotaland and Hreidmare can do 10 spt after it gets the furs, but our other cities are still too small. But we can also plonk down their temples after the GA if we don't think they'll grow over size 8 or so before it.
This is also the main reason why I suggested self-pillaging, as even now we're building units which take too long. However, both money and shields are somewhat limited now so leaving it as is is probably fine too.
I don't think we really need catapults as the attack-defense differential between the Warlord and the Legion is 8 to 4 so softening up is not really necessary, and at least the pillager and the warlord have defensive bombard too so as long as they move in stacks we're covered there too.
AT 70 shields a pop, you do need some proper cities to build them at a fair pace (which is why I do want the current temple in Dampstadhir completed). Our only really good city is Reidghotaland and Hreidmare can do 10 spt after it gets the furs, but our other cities are still too small. But we can also plonk down their temples after the GA if we don't think they'll grow over size 8 or so before it.This is also the main reason why I suggested self-pillaging, as even now we're building units which take too long. However, both money and shields are somewhat limited now so leaving it as is is probably fine too.
I don't think we really need catapults as the attack-defense differential between the Warlord and the Legion is 8 to 4 so softening up is not really necessary, and at least the pillager and the warlord have defensive bombard too so as long as they move in stacks we're covered there too.
Kabuki
Viking Expatriate
It was not a particularily interesting set of turns, but it should be from here on out
As I inherit the turn I take a good look at costs. It is 60 to upgrade from Raider to Pillager, and it will two turns later prove to be another 60 from pillager to Warlord or 120 from Raider to Warlord. Cutting off the Iron is out of the question, our economy can't upgrade one a turn...
I also notice that our defence is paper thin - this shouldn't be much of a problem if it were not for loose Raiders in our back yard. There wasn't much I could do about this, and it remains something of an issue.
Enough of the general comments and on with the interesting stuff:
IHT (402) - Everything looks good so after looking around I just move on.
IBT - Celts start SOG, not that we care much. The Visigoths near Dampstadhir (Damp place/city) do worry me though.
1 (404)
- There are at least eight Visigoth cities in our vicinity, I pick out the eight closest and try to find a good way so that we can take them out quickly. The three to our north and five of the six+ to our west should do nicely. Based on this I figure one WL and three Pillagers should be enough up north as there is no iron up there.
- Start bringing our scouts home, as we have all the contacts, and three more units might make a difference nearer to home.
2 (406)
- SOG completed :devil2: Reidhgotaland -> Barracks (2)
- Dampstadhir Temple -> Migrant (4)
- Wines lost - Fur online. I decide not to reaquire wines or sell our spare horses as all our potential trade partners are linked through Visigoth lands...
- Upgrade two raiders -> Pillagers
- Send Hreidmare's Pillager (2nd MP) north as unit three in our attack. This does force my hand w.r.t. luxuries as Hreidmare can't grow without an aquaduct and is at 3H 3UH...
3 (408)
- Sacking in!! -> Construction @ 29t +15gpt
We want construction -> Fortifications as that allows river-crossings.
- All tribes except Visigoths and Vandals got it this turn. I sell it to the Vandals for Map Making, 1g and TM. Visigoths don't get it, and by the end of my turns still don't have it...
- I check upgrade costs and realize that upgrading is unlikely to be sustainable and keep the iron online.
4 (410)
- Reidhgotaland - Barracks -> Temple, MM so it is due in 4 @ 15spt
- Cnivastavs switched from WL (17) to Temple (13) to bring in cattle and fish - it is also corrupt and will be hard to grow big units.
IBT - Plague hits Cnivastavs
5 (412)
- Scout the Northern Visigoth Towns, who are seen only have spears on defence.
6 (414)
- Dampstadhir Migrant -> Migrant - Growth in 3, Migrant in 3
- Note that we may need migrants to replace some of the Visigoth cities if they end up razed.
- Whip WL in Bairauja
- it set the city back a good couple of turns, but it gives us an excellent western SO(M)D with 3 WL and 5 Pillagers.
IBT - Byzantines start St. Peter's and the Hagia Sophia.
7 (416)
- Hreidmare Warlord -> Warlord (7)
- Bairauja Warlord -> Spear (set to max food to regrow pop)
- Reidhgotaland Warlord from SOG
- Respaweis (misspelt) founded on dot to pull in fur and horse, I was thinking of founding it closer, but its production would have been crud. Set to Spear.
8 (418)
- Reidhgotaland Temple -> Warlord
9 (420)
- Dampstadhir Migrant-> SPear
- Eygoth Warlord to Spear
10 (422)
- Not much to do, I left most units unmoved as they are in place to start attacks as are and I leave the timing up the next player.
- To keep in mind: There are four WLs due in four or less - Hreidmare, Reidhgotaland (x2), and the northern city seen on the map. A fifth is due in six turns, also seen on map.
- I traded around our WM a couple of times, but there were no other deals that made any sense at all during that time period. The only thing we are down to other barbs is currency. Some have construction on us, but it is really not a problem.
- There is a large stack of Frank Raiders west of where one of our scouts is standing - you can see one of the raiders, but there are at least two other tiles with a fair amount of them on. They seem to be heading for us or the Visigoths and there are enough of them for there to be an issue.
- Other than that I think it is time for us to go on the offensive.
Kill the Visigoths
- I'll see if I can put up a couple of pictures in a bit.
edit - spelling, pictures, and notes on our forces.
As I inherit the turn I take a good look at costs. It is 60 to upgrade from Raider to Pillager, and it will two turns later prove to be another 60 from pillager to Warlord or 120 from Raider to Warlord. Cutting off the Iron is out of the question, our economy can't upgrade one a turn...
I also notice that our defence is paper thin - this shouldn't be much of a problem if it were not for loose Raiders in our back yard. There wasn't much I could do about this, and it remains something of an issue.
Enough of the general comments and on with the interesting stuff:
IHT (402) - Everything looks good so after looking around I just move on.
IBT - Celts start SOG, not that we care much. The Visigoths near Dampstadhir (Damp place/city) do worry me though.
1 (404)
- There are at least eight Visigoth cities in our vicinity, I pick out the eight closest and try to find a good way so that we can take them out quickly. The three to our north and five of the six+ to our west should do nicely. Based on this I figure one WL and three Pillagers should be enough up north as there is no iron up there.
- Start bringing our scouts home, as we have all the contacts, and three more units might make a difference nearer to home.
2 (406)
- SOG completed :devil2: Reidhgotaland -> Barracks (2)
- Dampstadhir Temple -> Migrant (4)
- Wines lost - Fur online. I decide not to reaquire wines or sell our spare horses as all our potential trade partners are linked through Visigoth lands...
- Upgrade two raiders -> Pillagers
- Send Hreidmare's Pillager (2nd MP) north as unit three in our attack. This does force my hand w.r.t. luxuries as Hreidmare can't grow without an aquaduct and is at 3H 3UH...
3 (408)
- Sacking in!!
-> Construction @ 29t +15gptWe want construction -> Fortifications as that allows river-crossings.
- All tribes except Visigoths and Vandals got it this turn. I sell it to the Vandals for Map Making, 1g and TM. Visigoths don't get it, and by the end of my turns still don't have it...
- I check upgrade costs and realize that upgrading is unlikely to be sustainable and keep the iron online.
4 (410)
- Reidhgotaland - Barracks -> Temple, MM so it is due in 4 @ 15spt
- Cnivastavs switched from WL (17) to Temple (13) to bring in cattle and fish - it is also corrupt and will be hard to grow big units.
IBT - Plague hits Cnivastavs
5 (412)
- Scout the Northern Visigoth Towns, who are seen only have spears on defence.
6 (414)
- Dampstadhir Migrant -> Migrant - Growth in 3, Migrant in 3
- Note that we may need migrants to replace some of the Visigoth cities if they end up razed.
- Whip WL in Bairauja
- it set the city back a good couple of turns, but it gives us an excellent western SO(M)D with 3 WL and 5 Pillagers.IBT - Byzantines start St. Peter's and the Hagia Sophia.
7 (416)
- Hreidmare Warlord -> Warlord (7)
- Bairauja Warlord -> Spear (set to max food to regrow pop)
- Reidhgotaland Warlord from SOG
- Respaweis (misspelt) founded on dot to pull in fur and horse, I was thinking of founding it closer, but its production would have been crud. Set to Spear.
8 (418)
- Reidhgotaland Temple -> Warlord
9 (420)
- Dampstadhir Migrant-> SPear
- Eygoth Warlord to Spear
10 (422)
- Not much to do, I left most units unmoved as they are in place to start attacks as are and I leave the timing up the next player.
- To keep in mind: There are four WLs due in four or less - Hreidmare, Reidhgotaland (x2), and the northern city seen on the map. A fifth is due in six turns, also seen on map.
- I traded around our WM a couple of times, but there were no other deals that made any sense at all during that time period. The only thing we are down to other barbs is currency. Some have construction on us, but it is really not a problem.
- There is a large stack of Frank Raiders west of where one of our scouts is standing - you can see one of the raiders, but there are at least two other tiles with a fair amount of them on. They seem to be heading for us or the Visigoths and there are enough of them for there to be an issue.
- Other than that I think it is time for us to go on the offensive.
Kill the Visigoths
- I'll see if I can put up a couple of pictures in a bit.
edit - spelling, pictures, and notes on our forces.
Charis
Realms Beyond
... a message from the elite in Vizigoth command circles:
Kabuki
Viking Expatriate
Here, have a cookie. You'll see it will all be ok in a little while...
Aggie
Deity
Good!! Now we have to go to war, don't we 
