Remove or rebalance lumbermill?

T

Tugboatspotter

Warlord
Joined
Dec 19, 2019
Messages
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The 500g cost (and the extra turns to build) is so inconsequential that building the lodge is pointless. The mechanic of working a plot to level it up works well in my opinion and should be respected.

Could it be changed that the lumbermill can only be built upon a large lodge?

Thoughts?
 
Tugboatspotter said:
The mechanic of working a plot to level it up works well in my opinion and should be respected.
Click to expand...
That is what I think as well and thus built the logic / functionality like that in RaR. :)

Tugboatspotter said:
Could it be changed that the lumbermill can only be built upon a large lodge?
Click to expand...
What is a lumbermill, is it an Improvement? Since when does that exist? :eek:
Do we now have 3 levels of Improvement sizes? (It used to be only 2 levels in RaR 2.5.)

Sorry for asking stupidly but until now I had only really been playing my last RaR Release (which is RaR 2.5).
I have just started playing / testing WTP a week ago, when I joined the WTP team.

@team:
When was it introduced?
I did not read anything about that in the forums or just cannot remember because I get old. :)
 
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I think (don't quote me) the lumbermill was introduced in Rar 2.7.

"The lumbermill is no direct upgrade of lodge or lumbercamp but can be built directly"

Basically, you pay 500g straight away and spend an extra 50% time building it and get +6 lumber instead of +2 for lodge.
 
Thanks guys for the explanation. :thumbsup:

Edit:
A) I also agree that - once we really implement something like "Techs" - such a power Improvements should first be unlocked.
B) However I am generally a bit concerned that it is currently not consistent with the old system of "Growing Improvements" which still exists.

I will need to test this ingame and think about that more before I really have an opinion though.
 
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I like the requires tech option. ;)
 
The lumbermill appears to be rather AI friendly since the huge boost to the lumber yield prevents the AI from considering other plot builds and thus it helps in maintaining AI lumber production .
As for the AI chopping down all the forest, I will add a veto pass so that the AI leaves intact some of the forest plots around its cities which should further help.

And I agree that it would be preferable that the lumbermill was enabled by a tech.
 
cammcken said:
What about restricting it to river-adjacent tiles?
Click to expand...

There are several alternatives for handling the "lumbermill".
I personally do not know what to do because currently I have no idea what team and majority of community want.

I personally don't really like the current solution however because:
--> Strong Improvements should grow over time and not be directly build (being consistent with the "Growing Improvements")
--> It sounds overpowered (since it is easy to build - it makes other Lumber Improvements worthless)

The alternatives I personally do not like I marked in red.
Currently my favourite one I marked in green.

- We leave it as it (It is not broken and I read that AI can use it - but as explained above I still have issues with current solution)
- We simply remove (I hate to throw away effort other or former team members have invested)
- Increasing its price (If we do it too much could make it worthless considering benefits / price)
- Restricting it to limited numbers (most likely DLL changes needed that are too much effort for the benefit and difficult to balance)
- Restricting it to be built on Bonus Ressources for Lumber and Rivers only (easy to do but still inconsistent to "Growing Improvements")
- Restricting it to be unlocked by a Tech (still inconsistent to "Growing Improvements")
- we have Lumbermill become a 3rd Level of Growing Improvements on top of / after Lumbercamp (easy to do as well and consistent)

Explation:

Lumber is really important - also for AI.

When we would have 3 Levels of "Growing Improvements" for Lumber Improvements we could have each expansion step happen a bit faster.
(Only for Lumber Improvements at the moment. Potentially for Stone Improvements as well if we had graphics for a 3rd Level. :think:)

I personally do not want to have 3 Levels of "Growing Improvements" for Cash Yields or Food Yieds however.
(You can already get cash and food too easily in the late game.)

So usually (for all other Growing Improvements):
Level 1 Improvement --50 Turns--> Level 2 Improvement

For Lodge / Lumber Camp / Lumber Mill:
Level 1 Improvement --35 Turns--> Level 2 Improvement --35 Turns--> Level 3 Improvement

When (or if) we add Tech System each "Growing Improvement Level" could or should also be unlocked by the equivalent Tech.
(But currently we do not have it.)

Summary:
  • Lumber Mill would stay in the game
  • Instead of being buildable however it would become a "3rd Level of Growing Improvements" (currently for Lumber Improvements only)
  • We could consider to have a "3rd Level of Growing Improvements" for Stone Improvements as well
  • We should not have "3rd Level of Growing Improvements" for Cash Yields or Food Yields (because we would unbalance the game)
  • If we ever build Tech System all "Growing Improvement" would need to be unlocked by Techs
 
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The name is also very confusing, since you already have the Lumber Mill as an upgrade from the carpenters shop.

Currently it goes: Carpenters Shop > Lumber Mill > Wheelwrights Workshop >

So you have the building "Lumber Mill" and the improvement "lumbermill"

Clearly this is not ideal, so if it is to stay, either the building or the improvement should be renamed to avoid confusion.
 
lumber camp, perhaps?

Also, I think making it an extra level of upgrade to the lodge makes the most sense, so long as the AI can properly value it
 
ooooh. oops. I haven't used the lodge in so long that I forgot.

Maybe large>large lodge>lumber camp?
 
Does it even matter to the AI since it likes to deforest the continent?
 
rah said:
Does it even matter to the AI since it likes to deforest the continent?
Click to expand...
This is currently in work and going to change. ;)
It is one of the AI improvements that devolution is working on and the technical concept sounds quite good.

And already in RaR (thus also in WTP) :
- AI would not chop down Forrests if an existing Improvement would become useless
- AI would not chop down Forrests if an existing Bonus Ressource would become useless
 
Obviously the current restrictions are not enough.
 
Yeah, I usually switch between BTS and this. Currently in the BTS swing, waiting for something new to drag me back to the COL.
The increased activities in these threads gives me hope that something new is coming. I will be looking to contribute in March, or after I get my golf fix taken care of.
 
raystuttgart said:
What is a lumbermill, is it an Improvement? Since when does that exist? :eek:
Do we now have 3 levels of Improvement sizes? (It used to be only 2 levels in RaR 2.5.)

@team:
When was it introduced?
I did not read anything about that in the forums or just cannot remember because I get old. :)
Click to expand...

I implemented the lumbermill in 2.7 - why? Because I was able to do that. :lol::lol::lol: I did not ask for game balance or sence, I just did it. I just modded after my fancy. :goodjob: And I tried to give the AI a little help after I found out that this might prevent the deforestation of the AI a little bit. But I'm fine with a re-balancing. Nevertheless I would not like to see it removed in total. :thumbsup:
 
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