Research in the Middle Ages

[btfx]

Certainly you can. Even if you don't have them yet, that's still not a reason to build expensive junk. For the cost of a temple and a cath, you can build three cavs and go out and get those luxes. Multiply that by all the cities you build this junk in. Add 7.5 more cavs in exchange for the game's most useless wonder and you have one helluva army.

You still haven't answered my point about metropolises. You shouldn't have such things. Your core should be built CxxC or a bit looser, giving each city about 10-12 tiles to work. Outside, your build should be even tighter. On top of that, metropolises come about 12 techs after Theology. If you want Sistine's, capture it.

I know CxxC gives you increased production and a higher score, but I hate the extra management, and I was just testing the camp system where I build camp cities tight between my permanent cities, and don't build any improvements in those. It worked great, and now I have several well-improved easily manageable metropolises, size 15-20 whenever one of them gets a specialist, I draft, and the cathedrals really help out with that. I understand if I was in Communism, I could just use Military Police, but in Repubic, with all that weariness, it's just unbearable NOT to have cathedrals+Chapel.

Besides, if I need to pump units, I just mobilize, It's a bit drastic, but the production multiplier outweighs everything.

 

[Alex Johnson]

I wonder if there is a point at which rapid expansion actually slows down your progress to some degree. If I have my core cities as settler and worker factories, is there a time when that actually slows me down and it would be better to focus on making that core strong? How early should I have my core cities at size twelve?

For instance, if I have, like, ten towns, but my four best cities are two settler factories and two worker factories, this is obviously keeping those cities under population 7. Now, I can keep jamming out settlers and build cities that will provide at most a couple of GPT in the short-term, or I can build some aqueducts and get those towns up to size 12, which would theoretically provide me with much more GPT and ultimately quicker research.

Aqueducts? If you must Getting to size 12 is good for the core cities after you get Writing. Usually for me, I build settlers and workers from my core until such time that I have a good sized empire and travel from the core takes too long. At this point, usually by the time I switch out of Despotism, I stop building settlers and workers in my core and start building city improvements. I move settler and worker duty to the multitude of less productive cities (who by this time are pushing their limit of 6 but have corruption and don't build fast). 6-10 towns building settlers slowly is more helpful to me than 2 core cities building settlers every 2-3 turns. Especially when I can put good commerce and science improvements in those cities with their high production.

Most people will tell you not to build metropolises. I used to do that before getting into Civ3 that much (in Civ1 it is always good). Now I see that it takes a lot more effort for very little gain to exceed size 12. I also try to adjust my city locations so that they hit fresh water and don't need aqueducts. Many fanatics here are rigid pattern builders, though, and would probably object to me advising you to alter your city placement so you don't need aqueducts. Of course if you are on a dry world with few rivers and lakes I guess that's not an option.

 

[Vidar]

You still haven't answered my point about metropolises. You shouldn't have such things.

Unless you're going for a 20K cultural victory

 

[Abegweit]

And it should have a Cath too.

 

[White Fox]

Certainly you can. You should be out-teching the AI big time by this period. A beeline to MT often makes sense when playing a military game. You might even shut down research altogether when you get there.

However, it's not the best way to tech fast through the ME. This requires letting the AI research the techs it wants to and getting the others yourself. On top of that, you'll want Ed for unis.

Another bonus for going for MT is that many of the ancient wonders won't go obsolete as soon. Education and some of the others at the top of the tech tree obsolete wonders like the Great Library, the oracle, and the Temple of Artemas, good things to hang on to for a few more turns. The Great Library will help you get ahead up until education so you can grab ancient techs you might have missed and things like Chivalry.

 

[btfx]

Another bonus for going for MT is that many of the ancient wonders won't go obsolete as soon. Education and some of the others at the top of the tech tree obsolete wonders like the Great Library, the oracle, and the Temple of Artemas, good things to hang on to for a few more turns. The Great Library will help you get ahead up until education so you can grab ancient techs you might have missed and things like Chivalry.

If you have TGL, you can just turn science down to 0 and glide on the AIs' progress, sure you'll be behind 1 AI, and you won't begin developing your tech lead until Education, but the cash you'll rake in makes up for all that. In example you can use it to $rush libraries.

On the other hand, I almost never bother with TGL, since it's just so much more advantageous to get cavalry while half the world is still guarded by spearmen.

 

[White Fox]

The world will always be guarded with spearmen, its a fact of civ.

I only build the great library when I steal literature from another civ and have a city thats not building anything.

 

[btfx]

The world will always be guarded with spearmen, its a fact of civ.

Yes, I have noticed the AI will drag them out into the modern era. Especially if it's their UU and they haven't gotten their GA yet.

 

[gmaharriet]

sure you'll be behind 1 AI, and you won't begin developing your tech lead until Education

Actually, you'll be behind 2 AI. Two civs you have met must know the tech before you get it from TGL.

 

[btfx]

Actually, you'll be behind 2 AI. Two civs you have met must know the tech before you get it from TGL.

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​

 

[gmaharriet]

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​

Ha, ha! Yeah, I know you knew better. I don't know why my keyboard doesn't write what I meant sometimes either.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Certainly you can. You should be out-teching the AI big time by this period. A beeline to MT often makes sense when playing a military game. You might even shut down research altogether when you get there.

However, it's not the best way to tech fast through the ME. This requires letting the AI research the techs it wants to and getting the others yourself. On top of that, you'll want Ed for unis.

Doesn't need to be a military game to do that, it makes perfect sense to do so anyway. The way I play now (monarch/emperor) - after having the errors of my previous style of play pointed out to me - is I make certain of just ONE AA wonder, the Great Library. Then I make a beeline for MT which gives me (a shot at) Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's, musketmen and lastly cav. I am now militarily as "safe" as can be cuz the AI doesn't have access to a musketman buster. I do. Lessons, punishment and retaliation handed out as merited...

If the AI researches all the techs for me up to and including Education, fine. I make a buck along the way as I sell all those techs to the other AIs as soon as the GL gives me them. With Sun Tzu & Leonardo's built or building, I can prebuild so that I can switch to Sistine and Bach's when I get the techs, if I want to. Or go for Smith's and Magellan's. This is usually quite feasible on monarch/emperor as the AIs wonder building cities rarely are at pop 12, even more seldom properly developed and never production micromanaged for optimum shields.

If the AI doesn't get to Ed before me, even better! Now I can strangle their research by trading for gpt and denying them Gunpowder and/or MT for as long as possible.

In order to sustain this, I have to develop as many towns as possible and here the demigod, deity & sid purists will shake their head sadly. My usual build order after the first seven towns is temple, courthouse - which I pop rush just before switching to rep as the increased prod under rep quickly replaces the pop lost - (aqueduct if neccessary), marketplace, library and then university. This usually gives me the edge - or cudgel as the case may be...

 

[White Fox]

Actually, you'll be behind 2 AI. Two civs you have met must know the tech before you get it from TGL.

Wouldn't you only be behind one because you get the tech the same turn that two have it. One AI could be leading with another following. As soon as the second one gets a tech, you get it to. Technically, you would only be behind one. (and dead tied with the other)

 

[btfx]

Wouldn't you only be behind one because you get the tech the same turn that two have it. One AI could be leading with another following. As soon as the second one gets a tech, you get it to. Technically, you would only be behind one. (and dead tied with the other)

I think that's what I may have been thinking. (Actually you could be behind many seeing as each could research a different tech, and since there's no overlap you wouldn't get any. But the AIs almost always research the same thing.

Do you guys research Feudalism or Engineering first (or theology)? I just can't resist the bridges, and engineering cool IRL, so I go for that.

 

[White Fox]

I think that's what I may have been thinking. (Actually you could be behind many seeing as each could research a different tech, and since there's no overlap you wouldn't get any. But the AIs almost always research the same thing.

Do you guys research Feudalism or Engineering first (or theology)? I just can't resist the bridges, and engineering cool IRL, so I go for that.

There really aren't many possibilities for them all to reasearch something at the same time. Especially before the discovery of education. And I go for Feudalism.

 

[gmaharriet]

Wouldn't you only be behind one because you get the tech the same turn that two have it. One AI could be leading with another following. As soon as the second one gets a tech, you get it to. Technically, you would only be behind one. (and dead tied with the other)

Good point! I hadn't looked at it that way, and will rethink this.

OTOH, it's also possible that one or more civs you've not yet met may have the tech, and you could be behind several civs...or am I over-complicating this?

 

[Son_Of_Dido]

OTOH, it's also possible that one or more civs you've not yet met may have the tech, and you could be behind several civs...or am I over-complicating this?

Yeah. I'll make it simple. Let someone else build the Great Library. Then take it from them. Don't ever use F7 to check up on who has it or what city it's in; just find out by blind process of elimination...emphasis on "elimination."

1. Capture an AI City. If it has the GL in it, yay. If not, burn it to the ground.
2. Repeat step 1 until you find the GL or you run out of AI cities.
3. Actually, no, keep repeating that step anyway.
4.

[...I really should stop posting on this forum fresh off a play as the Mongols or Vikings...]


ANYWAY, yeah, having the Great Library gives you free access to any technology that is already possesed by two other civs THAT YOU HAVE MET. Any civ you haven't found yet doesn't count towards that "two other civs". So if you're stuck on the continent with all the luddite civs that are still throwing sticks at each other and have yet to get a boat over to the other continent where they're finding saltpeter and making guns already... the Great Library may not be helping you as much as it could...

...and ON THAT NOTE, isn't it a rather cruel twist that the Great Library becomes obsolete with Education, which JUST SO HAPPENS to be the technology you have to research before you can get to Astronomy and Navigation, which would allow you to safely cross the seas and find all those other continents and civs on them? Well I guess for pangaea players this isn't really a problem so much, but for fans of continents and us archipelago lovers? Ow.

 

[MAS]

...and ON THAT NOTE, isn't it a rather cruel twist that the Great Library becomes obsolete with Education, which JUST SO HAPPENS to be the technology you have to research before you can get to Astronomy and Navigation, which would allow you to safely cross the seas and find all those other continents and civs on them? Well I guess for pangaea players this isn't really a problem so much, but for fans of continents and us archipelago lovers? Ow.

Hence, suicide galleys!

But I'd use those even without the GL, just because it increases trade opportunities.