(Rising Tides) Possible uses for Submarines.

[Galgus]

Come to think of it, it makes absolutely no sense for a Sub to even have zone of control.

I'm not a fan of stealth in Civ games to start with, and the AI issues make it even more dubious.

Nope they don't, I made extensive testing about that. The only time a ranged attack does cause a change in alien relationship is when you do it from melee range.

I don't doubt you, but this makes no sense what-so-ever. They could at least see, hear, and possibly smell what was shooting.

Though it's not as if angered Aliens are ever a real threat anyways.

 

[Eji1700]

I don't see what the issue is. I use embarked forces when assaulting coastal cities even though they only move at 2 a turn, so I imagine it'll be similar.

Send in the mobile ocean forces to establish control/take easy cities, while the slower units catch up for the more fortified/difficult to take ones.

That alien thing though is extremely silly.

 

[swordoflight86]

Yes, embarked units move equally as slowly, but it is not the same type of thing. Embarked land units should theoretically arrive after the area is clear of hostile forces, so their slow speed is irrelevant.

Submarines are naval combat units. Thier speed is an issue because unless you have them in position preemptively, they will be unlikely to join battle in time to do any good. In Quills livestream his subs were routinely behind his main force and only became more so as time passed.

Which is the point I am making. How do you use them? Preemptively, by putting them in position before a DoW? As an early warning net? As commerce raiders? Their speed does not lend them to usage in a SAG.

 

[Eji1700]

Yes, embarked units move equally as slowly, but it is not the same type of thing. Embarked land units should theoretically arrive after the area is clear of hostile forces, so their slow speed is irrelevant.

Submarines are naval combat units. Thier speed is an issue because unless you have them in position preemptively, they will be unlikely to join battle in time to do any good. In Quills livestream his subs were routinely behind his main force and only became more so as time passed.

Which is the point I am making. How do you use them? Preemptively, by putting them in position before a DoW? As an early warning net? As commerce raiders? Their speed does not lend them to usage in a SAG.

As artillery to back up your melee forces which can clear the area ahead of time.

 

[Hail]

subs are slow and have a lower range strength than range naval.
subs' usage should be defensive duty.

 

[hevans900]

Wait subs have ZOC?! That can't be true right? Might as well remove their invisibility...

 

[Alkyon]

Wow, that's very stupid. I never realized this. I just tested it as well.

I lined up wolf beetles to die, and my CARVR's one-shotted 15 before I reached hostile.

The next game, I lined them up again and one-shotted them with AEGIS at a distance of 2. I went up to about 80 kills before I quit.

(Initially, I was thinking that maybe it was tied to XP gain, so with melee at 15 kills x 5 xp = 75, I was expecting my 38th ranged attack kill to turn them hostile with each attack only gaining 2 xp.)

The next game, I did the same with the AEGIS, but this time I made them adjacent to the wolf beetles. 15 kills and they went hostile, just like the melee CARVR's.

I also did a test using a whole bunch of Purity Rocket Battery cities and one-shotting beetles at a distance of 2 and when right next to my city. Neither of them raised the aliens to hostile.

I really hope Firaxis fixes this, I doubt they did in the expansion. But Dave "did" say something about reworking the alien AI, so maybe there's a tiny bit of hope.

- - - - - - - -

I made another thread about the annoying ranged attack buttons underneath city names, thinking that they shouldn't always be displayed in that manner if we're not meant to shoot aliens on sight. Never mind that, I'm blasting away at them all the time now! I'll try my best not to exploit things out in the wild with my ranged units, but it's going to be hard to do now after knowing this.

That's some great testing. I only have one more question though. Does this aggresion exploit work with orbital units too? Can you get away with bombarding aliens using orbital lasers, planet carvers or rocktopi? Or if the aliens are in the same tile the orbital unit is floating over, or adjacent to, will they suddenly know what's going on?

 

[Lord Shadow]

City attacks on aliens aren't meant to increase aggression.

It's been like that for a while, presumably since it implies self-defense to some extent.

As for the impact of deliberate unit attacks on alien creatures, well, at least that's easily moddable. That's something.

 

[Darsnan]

From what I watched of Quill's livestream, subs are rather slow, and I am not entirely certain they are useful for offensive operations except at the outset. So what can submarines be used for? That is the question I am positing.

So my first question is where in the Tech Tree do Submarines fall? Are they somewhere relatively early in the Tech Tree, and therefore a relevant beeline given the proper circumstances (thought here would be that if someone finds themselves behind in regards to a surface navy, then following historical precedence they would go for subs to counter sea-surface dominance)? This leads me to my next question in that would the AI be able to understand and pursue such a strategy? If so then there is a legitimate use for subs, both by human and AI players.

Also, here are some questions I have: what can attack subs outright in BERT?
Also what cover can subs utilize? Can they hide under sea ice (IIRC from ciV they can), and if so what units can counter subs hiding under sea ice? Also can subs hide under sea miasma, or do subs take damage from sea miasma just like any other unit?

D

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Since subs have a ranged attack, they can be used to soften up cities or units on the coast? Think of it as a cruise missile strike.

 

[Darsnan]

Oh yes, and the Orbital layer: how do orbital units interact with subs? Do subs get the same benefits as other units from orbital units? And can orbital units attack subs (even ones which are hiding under ice or miasma)?

D

 

[BrotherAriman]

What would be fun would be to allow stealth units whether they're subs or some of the unique units to pillage trade convoys without starting a war or informing who was responsible as long as they did it in an undetected tile.

 

[GenEngineer]

So my first question is where in the Tech Tree do Submarines fall? Are they somewhere relatively early in the Tech Tree, and therefore a relevant beeline given the proper circumstances (thought here would be that if someone finds themselves behind in regards to a surface navy, then following historical precedence they would go for subs to counter sea-surface dominance)? This leads me to my next question in that would the AI be able to understand and pursue such a strategy? If so then there is a legitimate use for subs, both by human and AI players.

Also, here are some questions I have: what can attack subs outright in BERT?
Also what cover can subs utilize? Can they hide under sea ice (IIRC from ciV they can), and if so what units can counter subs hiding under sea ice? Also can subs hide under sea miasma, or do subs take damage from sea miasma just like any other unit?

D

Submarines are unlocked at Chemistry, making them just as easy to grab as rangers or combat rovers are, so not even a beeline type deal - just really easy, guaranteed pickup. As far as AI ability to handle it, who knows? We'd need to see multiple games where they actually put up a fight in the first place to see if they are better or worse with subs.

Subs are capable of attacking anything in their range, similar to cruisers. They can't use any cover that we can see - sea ice remains impassable (to other units, haven't seen a sub get close enough to test), and I don't believe sea miasma is in the game at all (so no reason for subs to be immune).

As for your later question, subs probably interact with the orbital layer in the exact same way as other units, receiving the exact same bonuses as other units would (ie not much, unless it's a tactial hub or you have the might virtue). The orbital bombardment units should be able to attack subs that are visible to the owner, in the same way that a land based unit is capable of attacking it.

Hope this answers your questions

 

[Ryika]

sea ice remains impassable

Is that confirmed? Because in Civ 5 Subs could move below ice.

 

[GenEngineer]

Is that confirmed? Because in Civ 5 Subs could move below ice.

Perhaps I should state that we haven't seen it happen yet, and it remains impassable to other units. So I'm making a bit of an assumption here.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What would be fun would be to allow stealth units whether they're subs or some of the unique units to pillage trade convoys without starting a war or informing who was responsible as long as they did it in an undetected tile.

It would be nice if invisible units could violate the stacking rules... with enemy units only. (of course then they couldn't be melee attackers..but it would work with subs)

 

[BrotherAriman]

Speaking of invisible units does anyone know if we can enter enemy territory with them as long as it isn't within sight range of a city/unit?

 

[s0nny80y]

Cruise missiles or some sort of land bombardment might be an upgraded perk.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Cruise missiles or some sort of land bombardment might be an upgraded perk.

I remember Marbozir attacking land units with a sub (Tidehunter) in his LP.

 

[Halcyon 7]

Speaking of invisible units does anyone know if we can enter enemy territory with them as long as it isn't within sight range of a city/unit?

I would imagine not, if you got spotted it would have to be an automatic DoW it would seem. That just sounds wonky.

I hope subs can get under the ice. Not a big deal but it can be really nice to have on hand in a few fringe situations. Hover can't pass ice?