Safe Steal not so Safe

[wanhaiyang]

In 1650 I attempted a Safe Steal of technology from Babylon using a spy. It cost me 3498 gold. It failed and Babylon killed my agent and declared war on me. Grrrr.

In 1766 I agreed peace with Babylon, with them giving me Ecology in return for 295GPT. I then spent 129 gold planting a spy in Babylon. It was discovered and killed. Babylon declared war on me. Hurrah, the obligation to pay 295 GPT was cancelled so I saved 5900 gold, whilst the war had little impact on me.

1784 peace with Babylon.

In 1794 I again attempted to do a Safe Steal of technology from Babylon, using my embassy (although I had a spy planted). I paid 3642 gold. It failed and Babylon declared war on me. Grrrr. However my spy was not discovered.

My questions are:

(!) Is the upside of using a spy to do a safe steal instead of an embassy that there is a higher chance of success?

(2) Is the downside of using a spy to do the steal that if it fails you not only lose your money but also your spy is killed. If you use an embassy then your spy is not necessarily killed.

It seems also that a good time to plant a spy is when you have just concluded a negotiation where you are required to pay a large GPT to that country (provided you do not mind having a war with them).

(3) Any comments?

 

[Mesodius]

For whatever reason I have never had great success stealing tech. For me it seems like an extremely expensive way to get someone to declare war on you.

 

[Rodent]

If you read some of the great succession games you will see the tech steal used with great effect, even immediate sometimes works

Btw, your probability of failing in a tech steal with a spy is lesser than that of the embassy, so try and use spys whenever you can

 

[Chamnix]

My questions are:

(!) Is the upside of using a spy to do a safe steal instead of an embassy that there is a higher chance of success?

(2) Is the downside of using a spy to do the steal that if it fails you not only lose your money but also your spy is killed. If you use an embassy then your spy is not necessarily killed.

It seems also that a good time to plant a spy is when you have just concluded a negotiation where you are required to pay a large GPT to that country (provided you do not mind having a war with them).

(3) Any comments?

Espionage missions.

Out of curiosity, what does getting caught in espionage, all the forms, do to a player's reputation with the ai civs?

No effect on reputation, but there is an attitude adjustment:

KEY NOTE: Good things actually give you a negative number, and bad things give you a positive number.

Here are the attitude ranks:
-11 and lower = Gracious
-1 through -10 = Polite
0 = Cautious
1-10 = Annoyed
11 through 100 = Furious

+4 for failing at an espionage mission (any mission or attempting to plant a spy). Other civs don’t care, just the civ you tried to plant the spy in, or perform a mission in. You can recover these points after 10-20 turns. Actually from what I'm figuring now +3 (which you can recover) is temporary, +1 is permanent.

 

[vmxa]

Gracious requires work, so who needs it, but it can be done. I have done with as an accident. Just keep feeding a civ that was the wealest on another contient the whole game.

They loved right up to the moment I came for them.

 

[vmxa]

wanhaiyang, stealing is a useful tool. The fact that declared on you so readily, means they see you as not all that strong.

The main thing to me is that I am not going to have embassies most of the time. You have to have a spy to steal during war and much of my stealing and the SG's are during war.

Some would not allow themselves to make a deal and then attempt break by stealing. I do not do that and I think many SG rules require you do not use that method.

The good news about stealing while at war is that you can use the cheaper attempts.

 

[Mesodius]

By the time I can usually afford to steal the tech, I can usually research it in half a dozen turns so I never bother. And by that time I'm also ahead most of the time so there is nothing to steal. I usually find better ways to spend the gold.

Another good point.

Not to mention that it is often a good deal cheaper to BUY the tech than to insert a spy and then attempt a safe steal.

 

[vmxa]

Lets recognize the levels and their impact on stealing or researching and if and when to do it. meisen said he can research in about 6 turns and does not bother and is ahead most of the time.

This is not likely to be the case at the highest levels or in some variant games. If you are ahead, you have nothing to steal, but optionally stuff, that you skipped for a reason.

Mesodius mentioned it is cheaper to to buy than to steal. This can be the case, again depends on what the game is and the point you are at in the game.

I would offer that even if you can buy, you may be better off to steal, AT TIMES. Say you could buy form one of the top AI's, do I want to give them more money to propel them along?

Maybe not, at this time. Maybe I would prefer to spend a bit more to get the tech and them not get anything out of it. Maybe I would rather risk a war than to give them a bunch of gold and maybe get them to the key tech sooner.

Maybe that next tech will be one they can sell around and get even more leverage. strategy cannot be taken out of context, IOW the game settings.

 

[Pyrrhos]

An associated question:

I have, in a few games, tried spies and found the chance of successfully planting one to be about one in three or four. I have yet, in spite of gaming for several thousand hours, never once caught a single AI spy. Does the AI not use spies or if it does, how come the AI can plant them at a 100% success rate? Furthermore, is the AI's chance of successfully stealing techs also 100%?

 

[Mesodius]

An associated question:

I have, in a few games, tried spies and found the chance of successfully planting one to be about one in three or four. I have yet, in spite of gaming for several thousand hours, never once caught a single AI spy. Does the AI not use spies or if it does, how come the AI can plant them at a 100% success rate? Furthermore, is the AI's chance of successfully stealing techs also 100%?

I don't think I've ever caught an AI stealing tech but I have caught them trying to plant spies on many occasions.

 

[Bucephalus]

If you have an AI civ actively stealing from you, you can use the 'expose enemy Spy' option.

 

[Aabraxan]

I don't recall whether I caught the AI stealing or simply planting a spy, but I distinctly recall the AI getting caught at something not long ago. So their chances are not 100%.