Spy System Review – 4.5.1
I’ve had a few games, with the goal of really digging in to the new spy system, and I’m ready to summarize my feedback. But first, a disclaimer.
Disclaimer: I know there is a sizable minority of the VP community that would wish for a radically different spy system. The goal of this thread is to adjust the current system, not redesign it. I fully respect debate for those who want to consider radically different alternate systems... but this is not the thread for that discussion. Thank you.
Overall Impression: Considering this was a brand new concept and really hasn’t had a huge amount of balance work done on it yet, I think it is an excellent implementation. I have found the system easy to use, with a solid UI. I have a good balance of just dropping my spies in certain places and only checking them once in a blue moon, versus actively using them and actively trying some shady business. There is definitely balance tweaking that is needed (as was completely expected), but I am quite impressed by this version 1.
Spy UI
General Area
Missions Area
Considering this is the first version with the updated UI, I am honestly very impressed. I have found the new interface simple, easy to work with, and contains most of the info I need to know. I only have a few notes:
Spy Point Generation / Security
Overall: My main feedback is that spies don’t feel like a renaissance activity (unless you are only using them for CS rigging). You just don’t get enough points to do anything until Industrial. On the flip side, late game you get a lot of spies and the points start to rise dramatically, which can make spying very powerful (perhaps too much).
Spy Levels:
One of the main ways to boost your spy points, right now spy levels are anemic. I almost never level my spies until the very late game. I also question if XP is the right mechanic for this. If spy levels represent such a massive boost in spy power (+50% for the first level as an example), perhaps levels should not be a function of XP (as there really isn’t strategy to build XP in this version). What if instead they were purely a result of national wonders?
Cultural Level Boost
I’ve been pretty excited by this boost. Its meaty and gives a legitimate reason to push tourism outside of CV. Further, it gives you a real reason to use spies on “lesser civs” rather than the leader. Sure hurting the leader hurts more....but when I can literally get points 50% or even 100% faster in that small civ....I definately consider it.
Security
Security is basically non-existent for the majority of the game, and this is part of the reason spy points get a bit out of control in the late game....the defense mechanic is not actually working!
Spy Missions
Overall: The balance is better here than I expected, but definately some tweaks. Most important, I think we need to have some cheaper missions, having all missions 1k or 1.5k points reduces variety and means you can’t engage with spy missions until much later in the game.
Steal a Great Work
Its the non-capital effect of this that makes it relevant. I don’t think this compares to a lot of other higher missions, but those require a capital. So this has a niche, and I think its a reasonable one for a CV focused player.
I do think the identification chance should come back down to 50%, it is MUCH higher than any other mission (even tech steals) and that’s not reasonable to me.
Sabotage City Production
This has one purpose....to stop a wonder so you can steal it. Its generally never the mission I am planning for when I plant my spy, but sometimes as the points rack up you check the city and realize “oh crap, I can stop this wonder and get it myself!”, and then you go for it.
Pilfer Religious Relics
This is a mission we can lower to 500 or 750 points to add in some variety. Its just too expensive for what it does, the pressure reduction is too short to really impact anything, and the faith you gain is just not worth it compared to other missions. But with a cheaper cost, it becomes an option.
Kidnap Specialists
We can fix this mission with two simple changes:
Steal National Treasury
It can be a solid benefit for its cost, depending on how much gold your enemy is hoarding. Though we have returned to the old problem that you can never store too much gold for worry about losing it. Its a powerful mission....but should it even exist? We tried doing a penalty to GPT instead in previous versions but that has its own problems. And so far this is the missions I’ve heard complain about the most. Maybe we just drop it?
Steal Technology
I think its a fair cost for what it gives you, and we can probably increase the caught % chance to 30% or something.
Radicalize the Rural Citizenry
The cost is too high for this one. I tried it once, and I’m thinking (that’s it, I could have stolen a tech....I could have knocked out defenses). I also just don’t find it all that interesting. Here’s a look at an alternative idea.
Cost: 500
Target City: +3 unhappiness. All other cities +1 unhappiness. Effect lasts for 10 turns.
This gives us a nice cheap mission that also can combo with the Arm Local Populace mission. And its a missions that hurts wide more than tall (and I think right now the system hits tall a bit too much)
Arm the Local Populace
I got hit with this one once...and its actually quite a scary mission if it hits your capital. First, your capital basically gets the sabotage production mission for 2 turns. Then....your happiness often plummets, which can often trigger the big unhappy penalty which generates a bunch of barbarians. Then...you get more barbs on top of that from the mission.
I think this mission is rarely worth it in other cities, but in the capital, it can actually be quite powerful.
I mentioned it above, but I think this mission would be more fun if you had happiness depletion options with other missions, so you could do a combo (radicalize the rural citizens to get them riled up...then hit the capital when its happiness dips).
The problem right now is this mission is too flippant. You have to go back and check all the time if you city you want to hit is unhappy or not. The restriction is needed, this mission would be insane if you could just do it for the points. But I do want a little control over it.
Target City Defenses
This one requires a LOT of foresight and planning. You basically have to set this up 30 turns before you plan to war someone, otherwise your war is usually over before its gone. That said, I have gotten some use out of it.
On the flip side, I am worried that the fortification pillage is just too strong against tall players. Tall absolutely depends on citadel usage, its a key defense for them, often required to hold against larger forces. If a wide player can just turn off citadels with the push of a button...I don’t know if tall players every stand a chance if the AI gets smart with spy use.
My last note...I don’t like the UI for this one. I am used to seeing the blockade icon, its frustrating to note see it (I honestly thought the mission was bugged until I closely checked the city to see if it was working). The effect should generate two icons, the standard blockaded one...and the one that shuts off the ranged attack.
All of that said, I think a weaker and cheaper version of this mission might be better in the long run.
Cost: 1000
Target City is blockaded for 3 turns
That gives you a mission that you don’t have to plan a lifetime in advance, but doesn’t completely shut down a city.
Surveillance Bonuses (aka passive bonuses)
Most of these I think are fine, just a few notes:
Diplomats
These are more impressive than I expected at first glance. Their intel bonuses kick in very quickly compared to regular spies. I have found having access to an enemy tech tree pretty useful info. The rest though I don’t care all that much for intel wise. Are they really worth it compared to spies (or CS riggers).....jury is out for me.
Counterspies
I love the ability for counterspies to switch focuses every 5 turns without repositioning. That opens up a lot of potential. Example: One of the missions allows you to strengthen your city ranged attack. Normally that would be garbage, why would I give up bonuses for something that I might almost never use? But....I can immediately switch to it when my city is under attack, and then 5 turns later can move back to more passive bonuses. That is gold, and really enhances the experience.
I think the main problem right now is security is so anemic, once that is addressed this might become more useful.
One thing I want to recommend, I don’t see a reason for constabs and police stations to give yields when identifying/killing spies. There job is to improve security, its there main purpose (and lower unhappiness). So heap all of those bonuses on teh counterspy. Its a high risk/high reward play. Using a counterspy means I don’t get yields normally....but if I do get a spy oh man the bonuses!!! Make it really meaty to catch that spy!
CS Rigging
I think its way too powerful at the moment. It starts off fine but its easy to just leave a spy in one CS for every and by industrial get 100-150 influence per turn in a CS effectively. It basically gives you a sphere of influence on any CS you want. While in theory enemies can send spies there to counter rig you....considering the amount of cities to cover (and the fact that the later you plop the spy the weaker it is...and you are spoiling your own spy to do it), people using spies to counterrig is not something that looks to happen.
Buildings / Policies
I’ve had a few games, with the goal of really digging in to the new spy system, and I’m ready to summarize my feedback. But first, a disclaimer.
Disclaimer: I know there is a sizable minority of the VP community that would wish for a radically different spy system. The goal of this thread is to adjust the current system, not redesign it. I fully respect debate for those who want to consider radically different alternate systems... but this is not the thread for that discussion. Thank you.
Overall Impression: Considering this was a brand new concept and really hasn’t had a huge amount of balance work done on it yet, I think it is an excellent implementation. I have found the system easy to use, with a solid UI. I have a good balance of just dropping my spies in certain places and only checking them once in a blue moon, versus actively using them and actively trying some shady business. There is definitely balance tweaking that is needed (as was completely expected), but I am quite impressed by this version 1.
Spy UI
General Area
Missions Area
Considering this is the first version with the updated UI, I am honestly very impressed. I have found the new interface simple, easy to work with, and contains most of the info I need to know. I only have a few notes:
- In the general overview:
- on the left side of the screen, I would like for a star icon to be present next to the capitals (exactly as you get with the city list on the right of this screen). This helps me quickly realize that a city is a capital for “capital only missions”
- For the security tooltip (right side), I would like to see a breakdown of how the security value is calculated (aka base X, -Y for population, etc)
- In the missions area:
- Missions that are restricted because “spies did a mission recently” need more info, I don't know how that works, how long it will last, etc etc.
- it should mention that you lose network points when you move a spy (or its imprisoned/killed).
- Place the capital star icon near the missions that are capital only, as that is the most common restriction for why you can’t do certain missions.
- Show the amount of yields I will steal (receive) for:
- Sabotage City Production
- Pilfer religious relics
- For Sabotage City Production
- There is a misspelling in the name.
- Would love to see the current building the city is building and how many turns are left (so I don’t have to go to the city screen if I don’t want to)
Spy Point Generation / Security
Overall: My main feedback is that spies don’t feel like a renaissance activity (unless you are only using them for CS rigging). You just don’t get enough points to do anything until Industrial. On the flip side, late game you get a lot of spies and the points start to rise dramatically, which can make spying very powerful (perhaps too much).
Spy Levels:
One of the main ways to boost your spy points, right now spy levels are anemic. I almost never level my spies until the very late game. I also question if XP is the right mechanic for this. If spy levels represent such a massive boost in spy power (+50% for the first level as an example), perhaps levels should not be a function of XP (as there really isn’t strategy to build XP in this version). What if instead they were purely a result of national wonders?
- Create a new “Scotland Yard” national wonder around Economics or so (late Renaissance). This levels all your spies.
- Use the National Intelligence Agency to boost your spies to the final level (and remove that from bletchy park....the extra spy points are plenty for this wonder).
Cultural Level Boost
I’ve been pretty excited by this boost. Its meaty and gives a legitimate reason to push tourism outside of CV. Further, it gives you a real reason to use spies on “lesser civs” rather than the leader. Sure hurting the leader hurts more....but when I can literally get points 50% or even 100% faster in that small civ....I definately consider it.
Security
Security is basically non-existent for the majority of the game, and this is part of the reason spy points get a bit out of control in the late game....the defense mechanic is not actually working!
- The population reducer to security needs to be halfed or maybe even cut to a third. It overrides every other security bonus until police stations.
- Police Stations come online too late in the game, as they are only real meaty form of security right now, but spies start ramping up a lot sooner than that.
- We probably need to reduce the Police Station (completely undoing the standard population penalty to security is kind of silly) and boost the Constabulary some in order to bridge the security gap.
Spy Missions
Overall: The balance is better here than I expected, but definately some tweaks. Most important, I think we need to have some cheaper missions, having all missions 1k or 1.5k points reduces variety and means you can’t engage with spy missions until much later in the game.
Steal a Great Work
Its the non-capital effect of this that makes it relevant. I don’t think this compares to a lot of other higher missions, but those require a capital. So this has a niche, and I think its a reasonable one for a CV focused player.
I do think the identification chance should come back down to 50%, it is MUCH higher than any other mission (even tech steals) and that’s not reasonable to me.
Sabotage City Production
This has one purpose....to stop a wonder so you can steal it. Its generally never the mission I am planning for when I plant my spy, but sometimes as the points rack up you check the city and realize “oh crap, I can stop this wonder and get it myself!”, and then you go for it.
Pilfer Religious Relics
This is a mission we can lower to 500 or 750 points to add in some variety. Its just too expensive for what it does, the pressure reduction is too short to really impact anything, and the faith you gain is just not worth it compared to other missions. But with a cheaper cost, it becomes an option.
Kidnap Specialists
We can fix this mission with two simple changes:
- Remove the capital only restriction
- Reduce the cost to 750 points.
Steal National Treasury
It can be a solid benefit for its cost, depending on how much gold your enemy is hoarding. Though we have returned to the old problem that you can never store too much gold for worry about losing it. Its a powerful mission....but should it even exist? We tried doing a penalty to GPT instead in previous versions but that has its own problems. And so far this is the missions I’ve heard complain about the most. Maybe we just drop it?
Steal Technology
I think its a fair cost for what it gives you, and we can probably increase the caught % chance to 30% or something.
Radicalize the Rural Citizenry
The cost is too high for this one. I tried it once, and I’m thinking (that’s it, I could have stolen a tech....I could have knocked out defenses). I also just don’t find it all that interesting. Here’s a look at an alternative idea.
Cost: 500
Target City: +3 unhappiness. All other cities +1 unhappiness. Effect lasts for 10 turns.
This gives us a nice cheap mission that also can combo with the Arm Local Populace mission. And its a missions that hurts wide more than tall (and I think right now the system hits tall a bit too much)
Arm the Local Populace
I got hit with this one once...and its actually quite a scary mission if it hits your capital. First, your capital basically gets the sabotage production mission for 2 turns. Then....your happiness often plummets, which can often trigger the big unhappy penalty which generates a bunch of barbarians. Then...you get more barbs on top of that from the mission.
I think this mission is rarely worth it in other cities, but in the capital, it can actually be quite powerful.
I mentioned it above, but I think this mission would be more fun if you had happiness depletion options with other missions, so you could do a combo (radicalize the rural citizens to get them riled up...then hit the capital when its happiness dips).
The problem right now is this mission is too flippant. You have to go back and check all the time if you city you want to hit is unhappy or not. The restriction is needed, this mission would be insane if you could just do it for the points. But I do want a little control over it.
Target City Defenses
This one requires a LOT of foresight and planning. You basically have to set this up 30 turns before you plan to war someone, otherwise your war is usually over before its gone. That said, I have gotten some use out of it.
On the flip side, I am worried that the fortification pillage is just too strong against tall players. Tall absolutely depends on citadel usage, its a key defense for them, often required to hold against larger forces. If a wide player can just turn off citadels with the push of a button...I don’t know if tall players every stand a chance if the AI gets smart with spy use.
My last note...I don’t like the UI for this one. I am used to seeing the blockade icon, its frustrating to note see it (I honestly thought the mission was bugged until I closely checked the city to see if it was working). The effect should generate two icons, the standard blockaded one...and the one that shuts off the ranged attack.
All of that said, I think a weaker and cheaper version of this mission might be better in the long run.
Cost: 1000
Target City is blockaded for 3 turns
That gives you a mission that you don’t have to plan a lifetime in advance, but doesn’t completely shut down a city.
Surveillance Bonuses (aka passive bonuses)
Most of these I think are fine, just a few notes:
- Level 4 should cost 1500. That lines nicely with your mission costs, and is more in line with the scaling up to this point.
- Level 5 should cost 1800. Its a very meager improvement in most cases, so at least let it kick in a little sooner.
Diplomats
These are more impressive than I expected at first glance. Their intel bonuses kick in very quickly compared to regular spies. I have found having access to an enemy tech tree pretty useful info. The rest though I don’t care all that much for intel wise. Are they really worth it compared to spies (or CS riggers).....jury is out for me.
Counterspies
I love the ability for counterspies to switch focuses every 5 turns without repositioning. That opens up a lot of potential. Example: One of the missions allows you to strengthen your city ranged attack. Normally that would be garbage, why would I give up bonuses for something that I might almost never use? But....I can immediately switch to it when my city is under attack, and then 5 turns later can move back to more passive bonuses. That is gold, and really enhances the experience.
I think the main problem right now is security is so anemic, once that is addressed this might become more useful.
One thing I want to recommend, I don’t see a reason for constabs and police stations to give yields when identifying/killing spies. There job is to improve security, its there main purpose (and lower unhappiness). So heap all of those bonuses on teh counterspy. Its a high risk/high reward play. Using a counterspy means I don’t get yields normally....but if I do get a spy oh man the bonuses!!! Make it really meaty to catch that spy!
CS Rigging
I think its way too powerful at the moment. It starts off fine but its easy to just leave a spy in one CS for every and by industrial get 100-150 influence per turn in a CS effectively. It basically gives you a sphere of influence on any CS you want. While in theory enemies can send spies there to counter rig you....considering the amount of cities to cover (and the fact that the later you plop the spy the weaker it is...and you are spoiling your own spy to do it), people using spies to counterrig is not something that looks to happen.
Buildings / Policies
- Constabulary: Too weak at the moment. Mentioned above, I see no reason to just give this building bonuses for every spy caught in the city. Your job is security...just do your job. Let the counterspy enjoy all of those bonuses.
- Police Station: Likely too strong security wise, but comes so late right now compared to when spies start to ramp up.
- National Intelligence Agency: Pretty solid, though I mentioned above you could level your spies here and I think that would be a cool boost. I do appreciate that spy missions are rewarded 4x the value of a cs rig....that was a problem in the old version where it was best to just plop all your spies in CS and reap huge gold rewards.
- Bletchy Park: Very good in the spy game, might be too much in fact.
- Covert Action: If CS rigging was more in balance, I think this would be fine. Right now the rig bonus is already nuts, this just makes it insane.
- Double Agents: The identify bonus is decent enough, and 200 points is just excellent. Really good if you want to push the spy game.
- Great Leap Forward: I think the +100% spy points here is too much. +50% would still be incredible, and I think its more in line with tier 2 considering the other nice bonuses.