Seer: Next tech @ 3360 BC

Bronze: Copper makes or brakes a game.
 
I don't play with Genghis, so I have no experience with Keshiks (possibly one of the GOTM's?). Are Keshiks not a very good UU? I'm just surprised everyone seems to ignore them. Again, I have no, or little (I'm unsure) experience with them so hoping someone who does will come along.

If we're not going after Keshiks (for whatever reason) than I agree on BW. We need some sort of advanced resource whether its horses, copper, or iron.
 
Methos said:
I don't play with Genghis, so I have no experience with Keshiks (possibly one of the GOTM's?). Are Keshiks not a very good UU? I'm just surprised everyone seems to ignore them. Again, I have no, or little (I'm unsure) experience with them so hoping someone who does will come along.

If we're not going after Keshiks (for whatever reason) than I agree on BW. We need some sort of advanced resource whether its horses, copper, or iron.
Click to expand...

One of the tricky things about UUs is their useful era. Keshiks will seem rather puny fairly quickly. They are, however, really fun as raiders. I have been playing Mongolia recently just to experiment with them. Since they move 2 tiles regardless of terrain or ownership, they can get in and wreck your opponent's resources. If you can kill off his iron, copper, horses and ivory, your enemy may be forced to fight you with archers and catapults. No so good for your enemy. :)
 
Well I was surprised that durring the turnchat no religion founded message were seen. This leads me to believe that none of our opponents started with mysticism.

We may still have a chance to found hinduism. I believe that if we can reasearch mysticism without seeing a religion founded message we'll be almost certain to found hinduism.
 
Keshiks are perhaps the best pillagers, but nothing more than that.

So,don't expect much from them; axemen much better; much later, elephants
and knights with two promotions from start are another thing.

Go on with bronze.

Best regards,
 
properly promoted Keshiks with cats are almost impossible to beat. Ask anyone that played/fought davemcw in the pitboss game.

i say bronze and then HBR
 
I think we should focus our research to exploit the characteristics that the game gives us (we are aggressive and expansive) as well as the unique characteristics of the historical Mongols.

The aggressive trait gives a free Combat I promotion to melee and gunpowder units. Thus we should research the metals (Bronze Working and Iron) so we can build axmen and swordsmen. Because we can build cheap barracks we should also plan to build many of those. The expansive trait gives us health, so we can grow large cities (and build cheap granaries and harbors). The Mongols made great use of horses in warfare, so we should absolutely build the UU of the Keshik. At some point we must research Animal Husbandry, Archery, and Horseback Riding

I understand the argument for researching a religion, but we won’t need early religion for happiness and none of the early religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism) originated in areas that the Mongols controlled. The Mongols did invade and conquer much of China, which was the birthplace of Confucianism and Taoism. This suggest we should aim for one or both of these religions, which means eventually we need to target Code of Laws and Philosophy.

Of course we can’t research all of these things at once (and we’ll want to fit pottery in relatively early, too, so we can start generating funds to finance our research). Our priority should be to discover critical resources needed to build our army. Thus we should research BW (to reveal copper): and after that AH (to reveal horses).
 
I agree with most of what you said above Bertie, but I'm still leaning towards getting a religion founded. Aswell as the happiness and the finacial rewards, getting Hinduism and spreading it both France and Germany would be immensly useful in any possible/probable future war with them as it would give us city locations and garrison strength.
 
Well as far as religion goes we can go for the CoL via oracle route, which will allow us not only to found Confucianism, but be able to expand and conquer early, since we will have courthouses much earlier than everyone else.
 
Or Oracle for Code of Laws, use the prophet on Civil Service?
 
Alright, an analysis of the Religious Route...

7 for Mysticism
12 for Meditation
14 for Polytheism
17 for Monotheism

Now let's assume Meditation is the prime target of the AI and we're probably not gonna beat 'em to it.

That means 21 turns till we get Hinduism

if AI gets Hinduism as well, that's 17 more turns, for a total of 38 turns to Monotheism.

(This is ignoring growth and changes in tiles being worked at the moment)

To compare with City growth and settler output.
Worker will take 7 turns, as growth is currently frozen this will not change, and research will also remain constant for 7 turns.

We currently have no queue for our capital yet, so if we work on the settler immediately after the worker, it will take 20 turns (ignoring worker improvements). So assumable a little less then 27 turns to get out a settler.
This estimate will likely be approx. 3 more turns if we wait for warriors to come out.

Waiting for size 3 will take 12 turns after finishing the worker before we can start the settler.. And then Settler (ignoring improvements) will take about 13 turns after that. So the other way is slightly less then 32 turns to get a settler out.

EDIT: also given the turnchat is quickly approaching we may want to bring this to a poll soon. Current stand-in instructions are Bronze Working, would be nice to have a poll to confirm our tech.
 
If we want a strong standing army insted of whimpy warriors. We need Bronze Working (also an added bonus if any Copper resources pops up near our city radi to gain an extra production)
 
I like falcon's discussion of how long it would take to reasearch techs and build things inside our city. I don't know what our plan is for growth after the worker, if we switch to settler imediately or spend some turns growing first.

Assuming we don't grow first we have 27 turns to turn out the next tech.

I've only seen it once or twice where a civ goes for polytheism before meditation, so it's generally a safe bet that nobody is working on polytheism unless you've seen the budism founded message.

I'd suggest we do mysticism. If we don't see the religion founded message then we can go for polytheism with little risk of being beaten. If we do see a religion founded message, then we switch to BW after mysticism.

Even if we have to give up going for a religion after mysticism we'll still have enough time to research BW before the settler is produced. And if we do choose to grow before building the settler then we'll have even more time to produce BW.

Basicly I'm suggesting we prepare to grab a religion, and if the opportunity still looks good after mysticism is done we go for it. If we don't still have the opportunity we move to BW without a significant loss
 
I'm sure there will be the inevitable point made that we don't need a religion for :) because we have 4:) coming from gold and silver with forges. The counter to that argument is that there are :culture:, :gold: and :hammers: benefits to a religion.

Don't we need part of the religion path as a prerequisiste for the Oracle and CoL anyway?

Since there is no penalty for switching research, I'd support starting on mysticism followed by polytheism, with conditional instructions to switch to BW or AH (people's choice) if a religion is founded before mysticism finishes.
 
Don't we need Mysticism for The Oracle?!
 
I was originally against the religion idea. If we research religion and miss it, we aren't helped that much. Researching BW should help us (unless there is no copper nearby)

However, Dave's idea sound good. The only drawback is quickly getting BW will allow us to see where Bronze is when deciding settlement sites.
 
In my solo games I rarely if ever research Mysticism and the religious techs if I don't start with Mysticism. I typically research Alphabet and than trade for the religious techs and I'm still able to get to CoL (read: Confuciasm) first. The early religions aren't worth going for IMO when you don't have Mysticism, as you can easily lose out on them. Skip them and take the one your fairly certain your going to get (again read: Confuciasm).

I know I mispelled that. :blush:
 
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