Serbia as playable civ

[Alone]

THAN PLEASE ADD ATHENS ALSO...
in that map above i see athens clearly part of Serbia.

Maybe you should look at map BETTER.
If you are serious and detailed as in this clame than you'll realise how relevant is whole your post!!

Just for the record Athens was never part of Serbia and is not on the pic above ether.

As I can see this is Turkish recourse map. If I want really to make you angry I could post one more accurate from western European sources were you can clearly see in that period under the rule of Car Dusan almost whole present Bosnia was part (so if you don't belive Turks you would probably belive your patterns West Europen Historians in this case

So I guess you're right only in two things 1.Better stick whit what you know better Croatian CivMod thread and 2. You DO need a vacation (or better glasses)

 

[Anima Croatorum]

..this is..

Now, you completlly disapointed me. I thought you're more serious. This look like ordinary provocation . Your observation on Souls and elder Gods look much better than this...

But this is not place to discuss this matter in details.

Hum, Travunija and Duklja were not Serb states. They were Slavic states whose allegiances shifted as the winds blew across Balkans. Sometimes vassals to Byzantium, sometimes to Croatia, sometimes independent, sometimes to Hungary... by the time Serbia emerged as an independent state all of these political entities were merely historical titles, some already forgotten.

 

[Pooks]

I apologize for calling you modest. Now i know why Athens wasn't mentioned.
I love maps, that woudl be great if u could post one that clearly defines the borders of that region, during that time period

 

[Pooks]

This is my last post here.. but truthfully.. Athens as part of the "Katalansko Vojvodstvo" That is close enough.

Thats practically serbia.. With all due respect, if you're going to include cities in Croatia, Bosnia, Albania etc... Than u got to include athens too.
Serbs came so close to ruling it, and you just got to know they had crazy influence in it.. It would be a shame to leave it out of the civ.

 

[Alone]

I apologize for calling you modest. Now i know why Athens wasn't mentioned.

You did NOT called me modest in any previous posts so I guess (since you can not quote yourself you need a better memory also

I love maps, that woudl be great if u could post one that clearly defines the borders of that region, during that time period

We have somethig common, I also like maps Thats why we all like this game I guess.

ONCE MORE: If nobody like this kind of list simply we'll stick with one that Velja already posted!
AND ONCE MORE:But you do realise that you willinglly refuse to put some very important cities of Croatia in CroMod just becouse they are not part of nowadays state of Hrvatska. Because I expect that in this thread you have same rules applied.

Maps comming, but offcourse it will not clarify completly any position of any state in earlier historical periods as Vet Legion mentioned that one can be disputed allways

 

[Shqype]

We fought for Kosova in 1389 against Otomans empire.Where were you back then.

The Battle of Kosova in 1389 was led by the Serbs , but it was actually a Balkan coalition against the Turks. In addition to Serbs, there were also Croatians, Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, etc. fighting to defend the Balkans from the Ottoman Empire.

However, the reason that battle was lost was because one of the Serbian leaders (which had a Turkish brother-in-law leading the battle) defected to the side of the enemy. Yes , a Serbian leader joined the Turks with a sizeable portion of Serbian troops at a critical point in the battle, thus allowing the Turkish side victory.

Albanians were unified during the 15th century under Gjergj Kastrioti to fight the Turks , while the Serbs were paying tribute , not powerful enough to lift a finger against the Ottomans. 10 years after his death, Albania was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, and kept under Ottoman control for almost 5 centuries. Sure there were rebellions, but they weren't enough to completely defeat the strongest army in the world.

Balkans in 1815:

1856-1878

Here is a map of Eastern Europe at 1878:

See where the Serbian aspirations are? That is the land they tried to claim for their own.

This is a good one. See where it says ancient boundaries (which even today are ethnically Albanian) and boundaries after a European Treaty that gave Albanian land to its neighbors?

This is a map:

In red is modern-day Albania with the international borders that the world recognizes, and is part of the ethnic Albania that exists today, the Albania that existed BEFORE the European Leaders split up Albania and gave part of the land to Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece.

Those maps are English, German, Italian, and French. They prove the point better than your propagandic claims based on false nationalistic myth.

 

[Alone]

This is my last post here.. but truthfully.. Athens as part of the "Katalansko Vojvodstvo" That is close enough.

Thats practically serbia.. With all due respect, if you're going to include cities in Croatia, Bosnia, Albania etc... Than u got to include athens too.
Serbs came so close to ruling it, and you just got to know they had crazy influence in it.. It would be a shame to leave it out of the civ.

I know why you're doing this...You simply wants to include Beč (Vienna) as a part of cro-civ. I mean you influenced Austria so much.. do it please I guess noone would have anything against nor Austrians nor Croats

@Anima - it's not a thread for that but just shortly if you know: What was then the name of the province ruled by Voinovich family and after Dusan's death Nikola Altomanovic (Nikola Voinovic nethew). And they were all Serbian nobles.

 

[Alone]

@Shqype

Your last map (that present some planed future) speaking of the nature of your nation better than anything. Thank You for posted here.


THIS IS MAP THAT SHOW PAST TIMES. 1354, to be clear.

 

[Shqype]

As I said , that was conquest under Stefan Dushan , considered the greatest leader of Serbia. That lasted for a very short time, 9 years. Like someone said earlier, you cannot include Athens as a part of Serbia for something like this. Athens is a Greek city , and is historically a center of ancient Greek culture. It is not a part of Serbia , just like the Albanian cities that you claim.

 

[Alone]

Just for the record Athens was never part of Serbia and is not on the pic above ether.

!!!!

 

[Shqype]

Alright then , let me give you a better example of what is not allowed.

During WWII the Germans took control of most of the Balkans. They brought Serbia under their Empire. However, the Germany civilization cannot include Beograd as one of its cities, because Beograd is a Serbian city which Germany has no legitimate claim to.

Acquiring cities for a short period of time during war by conquest does not give one rights to legitimately claim that city. Perhaps that better clarifies what I meant.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Bravo Veljo!

 

[Alone]

welcome to this thread

Ma odličan posao je napravio, samo je malo tvrdoglav
Jel imas ti neko dodatno resenje za Hajdukovu statistiku?

edit: translation - Great job for Velja, and question for P1fanatic for sugestion about Serbian UU, since this member is one of the best unit moders of all members, if not the best (i bio sam skroman u hvalama ovaj put )

 

[player1 fanatic]

I think that Hajduk is really original idea.

At first, when somebody (maybe some of the posters in this thread, it was long time ago), was making mod for Balkan civs for Civ3 while ago, my idea was to have some sort of Infantry UU, to represend soliders from Balkan and WWI which could have better defense (Serbia held long time against much greater Austrian force). In Civ4 it could be something like extra city defense bonus.

But when I think about it, Hajduk is really genuine idea.

Let's leave Infantry UU for some Balkan or WWI scenario.



As for Hajduk balancing, why not give them First Strike ability. That should similate hit and run tactics nicely.

Here is my idea.
Give them 2 First Stikes (like Samurai), but reduce strenght to 8. Then add free "Guerrila I" promotion to compensate.

Should give nice irregular flavour.



P.S.
Woodsmen promotuion is nice too, but unfortunately in that point of game, there are no really too much forests to make it useful.


EDIT:
Or let's really keep it simple.
Make it same as Musktemen, but with added 1 First Strike and free level of Guerilla I.

 

[Velja]

The Battle of Kosova in 1389 was led by the Serbs , but it was actually a Balkan coalition against the Turks. In addition to Serbs, there were also Croatians, Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, etc. fighting to defend the Balkans from the Ottoman Empire.

However, the reason that battle was lost was because one of the Serbian leaders (which had a Turkish brother-in-law leading the battle) defected to the side of the enemy. Yes , a Serbian leader joined the Turks with a sizeable portion of Serbian troops at a critical point in the battle, thus allowing the Turkish side victory.

Albanians were unified during the 15th century under Gjergj Kastrioti to fight the Turks , while the Serbs were paying tribute , not powerful enough to lift a finger against the Ottomans. 10 years after his death, Albania was conquered by the Ottoman Empire, and kept under Ottoman control for almost 5 centuries. Sure there were rebellions, but they weren't enough to completely defeat the strongest army in the world.

I heard this before... And Milos Obilic was Albanian, wright?? You call him Milosh Kopili. Funny guys these Albos.

In red is modern-day Albania with the international borders that the world recognizes, and is part of the ethnic Albania that exists today, the Albania that existed BEFORE the European Leaders split up Albania and gave part of the land to Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece.

Oh my God, what did they teach you there in Albania???
European leaders split Albania? Because of them you have your state today. Because of them Serbia had to give away Skadar(which we conquered in Balkan wars) to Albania.


What did yoy try to say with these maps? You missed to say the point. What they prove?

 

[player1 fanatic]

Just to get back to Hajduks.
(and forget about real-politics, Serbian, and Albainian nationalist will just never agree about some things and that's hard truth)


Hit and run can be represented with either first strikes or retreat chance. The only problem with this aproach is that gunpowder units can't get promotions with these abilities.
So if it has FS1 it will alwasy be FS1, if it has 25% retreat it will always be retreat


Anyway, just having UU with both Woodsman I and Guerrilla I for free is an interesting option too.
Woods and hills were always connected with Hajduks anyway. And they are good attackers since Civ leader is agressive so they have Combat I.

 

[srdjann]

Well, I didnot want to got involved in such discusion, but I dislike very much when some without any knowledge give some really incorrect and provocative posts as mr. srdjann did it for example. Niksic (use to be Onogosht), Podgorica (use to be Ribnica -and birth place of STEFAN NEMANJA) were never Serbian City?????? They were among the FIRST!!!

Well, you said it! Podgorica and Niksic were never part of Serbian empire because in those times they had different names!

Nobody will complain if you put Onogosht and Ribnica, but if you put Niksic and Podgorica that will be something completely different (to repeat myself – sick wish of serbian nationalists).

For an example, Singidunum could be a part of Rome civilization but what will you say if someone put Beograd (or Belgrade)? You will be at least unsatisfied.

Naming Banja Luka, Podgorica, Niksic, Sarajevo, Knin... as a part of Serbian Empire wouldn't be much different as naming Tokio too (Srbija do Tokija )

On the other hand, speaking of Kosovar cities (Prizren, Pristina, Pec...) I totally agree that they should be names of cities inside Serbian mod even thoug I think that they are no longer inside Serbia (formaly yes for a couple more months or maybe years, but practicaly no). They were part of Serbian empire in history so they must be included without concerning todays political situation.

 

[LAnkou]

whoaaa....

such a discussion on city names?
i know i'm a westerner and my knowledge of balkan history is quite small, but so much discussion between serbian, croat, albanian...(didn't remember any slovenian post). I'm wondering if i'm gonna add serbia (and to be fair, that would mean i have to remove croatia).

well, i don't know whether Belgrade should be serbian or french, but here are some simple rules to get everyone agree:

-focuse on cities that are within the boundaries of the existing state
-in the case of Serbia, i would try to avoid as much as possible city that are in kosovo. from what i know, Kosovo is still part of Yougoslavia (wich include Serbia and Kosovo), but if i were you i would try to avoid polemic
-if there are historical serbian cities that are outside serbian boundaries (i mean cities that everyone agree they were part of serbia long enough, cities that were founded by serbian but aren't serbian anymore), try to give them the oldest name (the Niksic/Onogosht thing), it won't be seen as rude but rather as smart
-i disagree with the use of the map of the empire: it last 9 years only...should i include italian cities since Napoleon conquer them and keep them for some years? no i don't think so
-Use the present boundaries to determine whether a city should or shouldn't be in the list. avoid polemic
-avoid polemic
-avoid polemic

well that's sad, but with the present way the things are, if i add serbia to superciv, i will change the city list and make my own: (wich will be done in this way: google, "major serbian cities", copy/paste, play)

 

[LAnkou]

here is the google list (include vojvodina, if it's a problem to any vojvodinian, i may try to fix it)

Principal Cities and populations
Name C Cf 2002-04-01
1 Beograd 1,120,092
2 Novi Sad 191,405
3 Niš 173,724
4 Kragujevac 146,373
5 Subotica 99,981
6 Zrenjanin 79,773
7 Pančevo 77,087
8 Čačak 73,217
9 Leskovac 63,185
10 Smederevo 62,805
11 Valjevo 61,035
12 Kraljevo 57,411
13 Kruševac 57,347
14 Šabac 55,163
15 Vranje 55,052
16 Užice 54,717
17 Novi Pazar 54,604
18 Sombor 51,471

 

[VetLegion]

I'm wondering if i'm gonna add serbia (and to be fair, that would mean i have to remove croatia).

Remove France while you are at it.

here is the google list (include vojvodina, if it's a problem to any vojvodinian, i may try to fix it)

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