SGOTM 06 - Gypsy Kings

[oyzar]

According to da_vinci's sims we'll have the copper hooked up so it'll be fine.

 

[hellwitch]

I find hooking the copper before chopping better in long and short term. I long - its obvious that working higher productive tile earlier is better. In short term - an Axe (IMO chopped axe ) is the best way to defend us vs all kind of threads. I didn't make the calc. with copper first or not but the difference(not more that 1-2 turns) wont worth if we get pillaged because the lack of heavy defender !!!

In case of Astro aproach:
One important noteif we want to blub Astronomy - if we have Col the first sci will burn for Philo. Of cource the bline for Astro is not the way but we can miss the whole religions tech tree. Something like : Hunting>AH>Wheel>Archery>Pottery>Writing>Myst>IW>Math>Masonary>Costruction>Calendar>Sailing>Compas>MC>Mashinary>Optics>Astro

the order could not be this. This way our military will have Crossbowmans, Cats, maybe War Elephants, Axes and swords - and we will meet at most Longbows in few numbers. I find this as fastest.

Missing Currency and Col will hit our economy a lot so we must consider do we really want to blub or we will wait for second sci and if it comes early enough ok if not - to get Astro by ourselfs

 

[oyzar]

Huh? We chop once then do the copper to speed up the settler 1 turn... The culture graph is quite wierd... CRC might have built the stonhenge or maybe they are preparing culture bridges? At least they didn't do early BW which should give us an advantage. I am not very good at reading score graphs. Anyone able to get something sensible out of that?

 

[da_Vinci]

Huh? We chop once then do the copper to speed up the settler 1 turn... The culture graph is quite wierd... CRC might have built the stonhenge or maybe they are preparing culture bridges? At least they didn't do early BW which should give us an advantage. I am not very good at reading score graphs. Anyone able to get something sensible out of that?

I may have forgotten to include 2 hammers of overflow in the current turn into settler ... in which case 2 extra hammers might be enough to make no difference between mine-chop and chop-mine. Let's take a close look (yet again, but it is important to get this right, I think).

And my long post was not a sim, it was a "thought experiment" ... do we have an updated test map for simming? I may have missed it.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

@ dV, Don't make it so complicated, open the city screen and see the 2F + 6H right now. Add 2F when the farm is complete next turn for a total of 10. 30H for each chop = same as 3 turns. The only thing I didn't throw in was switching to the copper if mined. But I wouldn't do that, based on giving up the 8C from the Gold.

I am not making it complicated, I am just reporting on the existing complexity!

You say 2F 6H into settler on screen now. We are working 3F 1H city tile (ignore commerece for this calc), 0F 3H gold, and 3F rice. 6F 4H minus the 4F we are eating is 2F 4H, so two of your current 6H must be overflow.

So we are 6 into settler base now, with a one time bonus of two (which I missed) then rice farm adds two to base, so we get 8 base until mined copper.

When copper is mined, I don't switch to copper from gold, I switch to copper from the rice: rice = 5F, copper = 1F 5H so copper instead of rice during the settler build.

So in my long thought experiment, just subtract 2 from all of my "left to go" on settler numbers.

And chop-mine still saves one turn ... mine-chop wastes a worker move which is probably the difference. I was remembering the "18 to go with 8 per" changes to "18 to go 9 per" when I thought two would matter ... but it only means that chop mine completes faster even if not working the copper (since corrected it is 16 to go with 8 or 9 per).

I think that mining the copper while settler builds frees the worker to go improve city 2 (and come back for second cap forest chop) rather than have the worker spend time on the mine ... so I don't think we gain a lot with the settler two turns earlier if the worker can't join him.

I see worker pasturing cows, maybe chopping forest SE of cows if we need that, then mining the gold. Rather than improving more capital tiles, do we whip axes (or barracks?) for a fast axe rush?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I was thinking axeman while growing to size 3 then another worker before building a barracks. I am fine defending with 2 warriors though

We lack defensive mobility (roads) and if two archers enter our borders, no way we can defend the city, the farm and the mines. Even an axe with no roads can't cover everything.

Let's not understimate the enemy nor overestimate or defensive capabilities.

A worker is how many axemen? If we get a fast axe rush out to take enemy second cities, won't that mean a faster kill of local AI (which is what we want ... or is there a reason to keep them alive?). I am not sure if the second worker is necessarily the best move ... depends on how fast we want to make our first strike. This may be a decision for the turnset after oyzar's, in which case we have time to mull it over.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm against a 2nd worker, after the settler, all we need is troops now. These will get us free workers. In fact, if I was playing this game by myself I'd be tempted to play safe, skip settler as well and go for barracks (chopped) and spam axes until Mansa and Alex are gone.

Hmmm maybe I should up my medication, I was known to be the team's peacemonger.

 

[Ronnie1]

I am not making it complicated, I am just reporting on the existing complexity!

I hang my head in shame. In my simplicity, I missed that 2 of the hammers were from over flow. So yes, 8H this turn, and 8H after from the farmed rice. Then yes we can switch to copper mine for 9H/t for the remainder.

chop(so we can hook up copper not to speed up settler movement by 1 turn)

I am confused by this though. All we need to hook the copper is a mine. I already simmed it

From C63, "Correcting my earlier post we don't need road to connect copper, one tile adjacent to 2 rivers connect them."

From R1, "C63 is correct, I just tested with WB and a mine is all that is required to access the copper. "

I'm against a 2nd worker, after the settler, all we need is troops now. These will get us free workers. In fact, if I was playing this game by myself I'd be tempted to play safe, skip settler as well and go for barracks (chopped) and spam axes until Mansa and Alex are gone.

I agree with this assessment, especially given it's origin!

EDIT:So 8 turns to mine the copper after the rice is done(3 to get there, 6 to mine). So we have 10turns at 8H/t = 80. 150-80=70 remaining, 70/9 = 8 turns, - 1 chop = 30H which gives the settler in 15 turns total counting the inherited turn.

 

[Ronnie1]

do we have an updated test map for simming?

It is here.

Here is the updated test map. It still says T1 as I don't know how to alter that. I "think" I made all the appropriate changes. Feel free to update as necessary and re-post.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/89064/GK_Test_Map_BC-3070.CivWarlordsSave

 

[toller pretzl]

I'm against a 2nd worker, after the settler, all we need is troops now. These will get us free workers. In fact, if I was playing this game by myself I'd be tempted to play safe, skip settler as well and go for barracks (chopped) and spam axes until Mansa and Alex are gone.

Hmmm maybe I should up my medication, I was known to be the team's peacemonger.

I agree with this assessment, especially given it's origin!

I like the way this discussion is going

 

[oyzar]

Hellwitch as long as we skip meditation there is no danger of having to bulb philosophy. The updated testmap is rather useless given that alot of the specifics are rather wrong.. Have to pretty much replay it move from move from the start of the other test save. How will another worker not help? there is no way another worker won't help us improve the capital and the other city faster... The 1 axe is just to defend us until we get the second worker and the barracks up then we'll be able to churn out more units. Due to all the peaks it shouldn't be too hard to manage defense.

 

[da_Vinci]

How will another worker not help? there is no way another worker won't help us improve the capital and the other city faster... The 1 axe is just to defend us until we get the second worker and the barracks up then we'll be able to churn out more units. Due to all the peaks it shouldn't be too hard to manage defense.

The question is a matter of play style. No question that another worker will help if our goal is to grow to max pop, build some infrastructure, and later build the axe army. I have generally been a builder first and a warfighter second.

But an alternative style is to forgo building, spam axemen and rush the AI ASAP. Some of the more successful GOTMers (and SGOTM teams I think) have won with that approach, so I am simply saying that we should consider the alternatives. Maybe watching the power graphs will tell us whether MW or CRC have chosen that path.

So ... If we want to spam (and whip?) axemen for a fast rush, is a second worker needed? If we are whipping, then maybe capital has all the tiles improved it needs for a while, and the one worker is enough for the two cities at low population,

If we want to grow the cities to max pop ASAP, then I think we need another worker so that the pop can work improved tiles.

Is there any advantage to keeping Alex and Mansa alive? If not, then a rapid removal of them seems in order ...

But if we are pretty sure we need astro, then maybe rapid city growth is the fastest way to that, and we can kill the AI later and still be done before we have galleons.

What if a victory is reachable by galley? Then is fast kill or fast growth the better plan?

So let's not dismiss either one out of hand, let's discuss the pros and cons. If we don't need to decide right away, then maybe oyzar can play to settler and first axe, and we can discuss what to do next with more information about our world.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Is there any advantage to keeping Alex and Mansa alive? If not, then a rapid removal of them seems in order ...
So let's not dismiss either one out of hand, let's discuss the pros and cons. If we don't need to decide right away, then maybe oyzar can play to settler and first axe, and we can discuss what to do next with more information about our world.

I agree with this approach. I see no reason to keep them alive. And as C63 pointed out, they have workers that will soon be ours. We need 4-5 Axes and then we gain a capitol site that will surely be the equal of anything we produce ourselves.

EDIT:

The updated testmap is rather useless given that alot of the specifics are rather wrong.. Have to pretty much replay it move from move from the start of the other test save.

We can make the specific changes to the map. I don't see how the turn number shown at the top makes any difference. With world builder we can add units, improvements, change city sizes, culture and buildings, religions, pretty unlimited really.

 

[oyzar]

It is the number of turns left to farm the rice the food in the food bar and the extra beakers i was talking about.

Turn numbers somewhat matters for barbs but beside that not so much... Anyone run any tests on just whipping out a fast army with 3 improved titles vs doing it on max size with a full compliment of mines? I fully admit i am not that experienced in fast conquest wins and maybe focusing too much on growing the cities and improvements have been my downfall...

 

[da_Vinci]

It is the number of turns left to farm the rice the food in the food bar and the extra beakers i was talking about.

Turn numbers somewhat matters for barbs but beside that not so much... Anyone run any tests on just whipping out a fast army with 3 improved titles vs doing it on max size with a full compliment of mines? I fully admit i am not that experienced in fast conquest wins and maybe focusing too much on growing the cities and improvements have been my downfall...

Fast conquest is not my forte either ... but Lehm I think has been heading that way, and maybe Munro too. hw, are you a fast conquest guy? What about tp (or is that TP? ) Pretty sure Thrallia is not a fast conquest expert. And it looks like C63 may need an exorcism after this game, as we have never seen the fast conquest demon in him like this before!

Is this a sufficiently large strategic divergence that we might play to settler and first axe, then wait for the return of those on vacation before we proceed?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Is this a sufficiently large strategic divergence that we might play to settler and first axe, then wait for the return of those on vacation before we proceed?

I agree with the first part of this at least. I think oyzar can play through the founding of city #2 if we are agreed on the blue dot location. The only remaining question would be what tech to follow AH, and I think The Wheel for both the movement and the trade route would be a logical step. Start building Axes in London after the settler.

 

[oyzar]

I think i should stop after the settler is done. Not sure if it is best to play the set in the middle of the night as i often seem to mess up math etc, it should be pretty straightforward but you never know what might pop up.

 

[Ronnie1]

I think i should stop after the settler is done. Not sure if it is best to play the set in the middle of the night as i often seem to mess up math etc, it should be pretty straightforward but you never know what might pop up.

I think you should only play when you are most comfortable. I also want everyone to know that IF something occurs that changes the plan, and you feel it is significant enough to warrant discussion, save it, upload it, and you can finish the set after we get a chance to hash out the options.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think you should only play when you are most comfortable. I also want everyone to know that IF something occurs that changes the plan, and you feel it is significant enough to warrant discussion, save it, upload it, and you can finish the set after we get a chance to hash out the options.

By all means, don't rush this now, play when you are at your sharpest. We are not in any hurry now, and if we are successful, never will be!

And when in doubt, save, upload and consult!

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I played the turn 0 final prince test map out to about turn 80.

Human barbs appeared at turn 57

They entered our borders at turn 76 (I added a warrior adjacent to our copper mine every two turns to check this). No incursions by AI to turn 74.

By turn 43 AI had second cities up, and archers.

I am now thinking that a second worker early is a good idea. We have roads to build, mines on hills to build, cottage or farm the dye, forest to chop, grass to cottage (or farm) ... a scouting WB to build. For example, we need roads to hook copper to second city (well, test map did ... will coast connect it in the game?). Workers we capture may be needed in the new land to improve and road ...

CRC has a pause in their power graph ... they may have build up their cities first, then built troops for the attack. The culture spike is either a built wonder, or a captured one perhaps?

How soon do we want granaries and libraries in our cities (barracks seems a no brainier)?

dV