SGOTM 13 - TNT thread
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
There has been no word from bjartur. I've pmed him but no response. So you will be up right after justjohn.
We began Mar 25 and have until June 25. So we are 18 days in, 75 days to go. We are at turn 119(***Edit - read score instead of counting turns2metraninja said:
) We have had 7 turnsets (including jj). 20% of our time to do 16% of the game and of course we will finish long before that date. 
So I don't see a reason to hit the panic button yet.How about everyone else? Do we need to speed up or lengthen turnsets?
dima42
Prince
You mean we're at turn 131 
.
.dima42
Prince
That being said: I'd be pretty surprised if the game took more than 400 turns.
I don't think the first 60 moves really counted since we worked them out mostly before March 25th. So in reality we've played 60 moves in 15 days. This is 4 moves/day.
75*4 = 300 --> turn 420, so there's in fact probably no reason to panic, but it's definitely not relaxed time.
I don't think the first 60 moves really counted since we worked them out mostly before March 25th. So in reality we've played 60 moves in 15 days. This is 4 moves/day.
75*4 = 300 --> turn 420, so there's in fact probably no reason to panic, but it's definitely not relaxed time.
Actually turn 119 (at 25 years/turn) as I mistook the P&R page score as turns.You mean we're at turn 131
But still I think we have time. We are right in the middle of the pack on the graphs page.Once we have explored and found the missing AI we should have a much better idea of the date we should aim for our conquest/domination.
400 turns would be what date? Edit: 1780ad.
justjohn
King
I played until Currency, since that was suggested. That turned out to be 22 turns - I hope noone will shoot me for it. There were not as many interesting events during my turnset as in dima's, but here are the highlights:
I followed the plan with some minor changes:
I decided the fastest way to get another Worker and Settler, was to produce the Settler in Elba and the Worker in Corsica with the overflow from whipping the Barracks (which I then did). Corsica then built a WB while growing back to size, and then continued the Settler. Elba grew back in one turn and started another Settler.
I built two Warriors in Lyons since we needed some MPs. Later during my turnset Lyons whipped a Trireme (exploring east) and built a Monument.
After building LH and whipping Granary, Orleans started on another WB. We need a lot of them!
After getting the Rice done, Reims grew faster than expected (I hadn't really thought about it). So the next time Reims reached size two, I whipped LH. (Reims didn't have any good tiles to use, and the border was a long way from expanding.) Its border just expanded and I had a WB ready for the Fish, and Reims will grow to size 2 next turn, using Fish + Rice. The Worker outside Reims builds a Mine on the hill.
In addition to the planned actions, I decided to put all Espionage point towards Willem. He's at the top of the scoreboard and has the tech lead, hence knowing what he researches is good.
Turn 125: Meet last AI: Joao II. (His WB found us actually, came from NW.) Hence no Germany in this game.
Turn 133: Lost eastwards exploring Galley to a barb Galley. The same turn Joao asks for Metal Casting, but that is our monopoly tech, and I decline. (I had already given him three smaller techs before.)
Turn 135: Willem is the third to discover Mathematics, and he will trade. Thus trade MC to Willem for Mathematics (which also helps our research towards Currency).
The Gold City has been build. (I haven't chanced it's name, and it defaulted to Paris.) I have improved its inner circle Fish and Clam, and two Workers are currently improving its Gold (done in 2 turns). At size this city can either whip LH, or just work Fish + Clam + Gold.
Copper and Stone are hooked up, meaning we can produces Axes and some Wonders. I haven't built any Axes yet, but I suggest whipping one in Orleans the next turn. (Orleans is two turns from growing and becomming unhappy.) Another option is to whip a Trireme there. In either case Orleans will then finish another WB, which we soon will need.
Both Elba and Corsica build Settlers in two turns. We have to decide where we want our next cities. I've found another source of Iron to far to the east. A city there will get Iron + two Clams at least. Lyons will finish a Galley next turn, and a WB with the overflow, being ready for the Corsica Settler. There is a Galley outside the golden city that has not moved this turn. It can return to pick up Elba's Settler (but is also needed to transport the Workers back soon). After the Settler, I suggest Elba should produce a WB (already started) while growing to size 6, and then 3-pop whip the Library (which otherwise will soon start to decay). Another option is to let the Library decay (8 production) and go for Forge or Moai statues first.
I've sent an exploring Trireme eastwards and a Galley westward. I've found Willem, but have not yet seen enough to get trade routes.
I've set next research to Code of Laws, but we will need to discuss that of course. Currently we share the tech lead with Willem. (He has Calendar and soon Monarchy. Note that many AIs will trade Monarchy even if they are the only one that have it. There are a couple of exception techs like that.)
OK. I think that's it. How about it?
-jj-
I followed the plan with some minor changes:
I decided the fastest way to get another Worker and Settler, was to produce the Settler in Elba and the Worker in Corsica with the overflow from whipping the Barracks (which I then did). Corsica then built a WB while growing back to size, and then continued the Settler. Elba grew back in one turn and started another Settler.
I built two Warriors in Lyons since we needed some MPs. Later during my turnset Lyons whipped a Trireme (exploring east) and built a Monument.
After building LH and whipping Granary, Orleans started on another WB. We need a lot of them!
After getting the Rice done, Reims grew faster than expected (I hadn't really thought about it). So the next time Reims reached size two, I whipped LH. (Reims didn't have any good tiles to use, and the border was a long way from expanding.) Its border just expanded and I had a WB ready for the Fish, and Reims will grow to size 2 next turn, using Fish + Rice. The Worker outside Reims builds a Mine on the hill.
In addition to the planned actions, I decided to put all Espionage point towards Willem. He's at the top of the scoreboard and has the tech lead, hence knowing what he researches is good.
Turn 125: Meet last AI: Joao II. (His WB found us actually, came from NW.) Hence no Germany in this game.
Turn 133: Lost eastwards exploring Galley to a barb Galley. The same turn Joao asks for Metal Casting, but that is our monopoly tech, and I decline. (I had already given him three smaller techs before.)
Turn 135: Willem is the third to discover Mathematics, and he will trade. Thus trade MC to Willem for Mathematics (which also helps our research towards Currency).
The Gold City has been build. (I haven't chanced it's name, and it defaulted to Paris.) I have improved its inner circle Fish and Clam, and two Workers are currently improving its Gold (done in 2 turns). At size this city can either whip LH, or just work Fish + Clam + Gold.
Copper and Stone are hooked up, meaning we can produces Axes and some Wonders. I haven't built any Axes yet, but I suggest whipping one in Orleans the next turn. (Orleans is two turns from growing and becomming unhappy.) Another option is to whip a Trireme there. In either case Orleans will then finish another WB, which we soon will need.
Both Elba and Corsica build Settlers in two turns. We have to decide where we want our next cities. I've found another source of Iron to far to the east. A city there will get Iron + two Clams at least. Lyons will finish a Galley next turn, and a WB with the overflow, being ready for the Corsica Settler. There is a Galley outside the golden city that has not moved this turn. It can return to pick up Elba's Settler (but is also needed to transport the Workers back soon). After the Settler, I suggest Elba should produce a WB (already started) while growing to size 6, and then 3-pop whip the Library (which otherwise will soon start to decay). Another option is to let the Library decay (8 production) and go for Forge or Moai statues first.
I've sent an exploring Trireme eastwards and a Galley westward. I've found Willem, but have not yet seen enough to get trade routes.
I've set next research to Code of Laws, but we will need to discuss that of course. Currently we share the tech lead with Willem. (He has Calendar and soon Monarchy. Note that many AIs will trade Monarchy even if they are the only one that have it. There are a couple of exception techs like that.)
OK. I think that's it. How about it?
-jj-
justjohn
King
When uploading my save, I got an automatic turnset log that includes the barb Galley attack.
Note that the Fish I gifted to Cathrine was just canceled because we lost the ability to trade with her. Maybe a barb Galley is blocking the costal route? And here is a link to the save (same as found on the Progress page):
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/TNT_SG013_BC0485_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Spoiler :
Note that the Fish I gifted to Cathrine was just canceled because we lost the ability to trade with her. Maybe a barb Galley is blocking the costal route? And here is a link to the save (same as found on the Progress page):
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/TNT_SG013_BC0485_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Nice turnset, jj! 
Too bad about the lost galley but it happens and you have no way to avoid a bad RNG. Nice to see some more territory.
We have 6 cities with more to come. I mention this because:
Willem - 3 cities
Isabella - 4 cities
Joao II - 3 cities
Catherine - 2 cities
Ragnar - 3 cities
Vicki - 2 cities
So no Germany, no gorilla, no astronomy necessary. Am I correct to consider this a simple race to conquer or dominate? I guess we don't know everything yet but it would seem that an earlier finish is possible -- just 17 cities at this time. Am I hallucinating or is this the situation?
So which way is quicker -- domination or conquest?
***ROSTER
enKage (up)
keath (on deck)
Windfury
fizbankovi
2metraninja
The Dude Esq
dima42
justjohn (just played)
We're down to eight participants and when enKage does his turn, everyone will have had a turnset.
Too bad about the lost galley but it happens and you have no way to avoid a bad RNG. Nice to see some more territory.We have 6 cities with more to come. I mention this because:
Willem - 3 cities
Isabella - 4 cities
Joao II - 3 cities
Catherine - 2 cities
Ragnar - 3 cities
Vicki - 2 cities
So no Germany, no gorilla, no astronomy necessary. Am I correct to consider this a simple race to conquer or dominate? I guess we don't know everything yet but it would seem that an earlier finish is possible -- just 17 cities at this time. Am I hallucinating or is this the situation?
So which way is quicker -- domination or conquest?
***ROSTER
enKage (up)
keath (on deck)
Windfury
fizbankovi
2metraninja
The Dude Esq
dima42
justjohn (just played)
We're down to eight participants and when enKage does his turn, everyone will have had a turnset.
dima42
Prince
Nice turnset, jj!
Ditto.
I suspect the biggest challenge in this game will be keeping up the economy, and mopping up after the AI when necessary.
But I agree that so far, it seems like a very easy emperor game than a hard one. Is there some surprise? Maybe. But I don't think we can adequately hypothesize on what it might be. On the other hand, while it's probably easy to win this game in a few hours while drunk, it is very hard to figure out the fastest win.
I guess this is ~3 turns later on getting started on Colossus than I'd hoped, but it's hard to weigh the cost of that versus infrastructure. Enkage, Colossus is probably the focus of your turnset
. That and whipping up an army. I think aiming for a declaration on Ragnar about 20 turns from now makes sense. jj, I'm a bit interested on the trade of MC for Math. Is this something you'd do on Deity also, or just lower levels? I've usually waited a bit longer before trading off monopoly techs on higher levels, but would always make this trade on the lower levels, and I wouldn't be sure where Emperor/Immortal falls on that.
Willem isn't a wonderwhore (in fact, we don't really have wonder builders this game, which is convenient) so we shouldn't be late on Colossus.
Other than Colossus, I think we should attempt a bunch of wonders and succeed to build close to none of them
. We probably should conquer GLH, and there is some merit in some circumstances to capturing Apostolic Palace so that it doesn't screw up with our plans . Also, ToA? This really seems like a good setup for a hybrid trade route and the whip-wonderfail economy. A requisite for this is lots of warriors, which can be produced by temporarily pillaging (or gifting, but that requires a 10 turn commitment) our own copper source. This is probably several turns of production after the army whip for Ragnar. (We'll need to fix a lot of unhappiness then, anyway.)It's still too early to say whether domination or conquest is faster. Also, 2metra is probably more qualified than I to make this assessment. Actually, I know nothing about the land percentage acquisition on archipelago maps...
justjohn
King
The reason for going through with it, was twofold. First, seeing that we're already in the tech lead (with Willem), means it is no big deal giving up MC. We now have Currency as a monopoly tech, and we will get more later. I didn't see much reason holding it back. Of course, if we didn't need it, then I have waited longer, but it gave us +20% towards Currency, which was the second reason and that tipped the scales. Of course, that bonus is not huge, but as I said, it doesn't look like we will have a tech problem anyway.
If I had done this on Deity? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the overall tech situation. In the same situation, I would probably have done it, but on Deity things would probably look very different.
When I play Deity games with Mapfinder saves, I never have a problem getting the tech lead. In such games I never build the Oracle (unless I can get Civil Service, but that is rare), I simply trade for the tech that the AI chooses.
So tasks:
start forge/colossus
Start Moai ASAP for military
Things to decide
a) whip library first and then keeping happy cap in capital while building moai in capital
build forge in copper city and collosus
b) whip forge instead of library in capital, colossus in capital, moai in copper city (and later maybe try for late pyramids for fish-specialists)
So we have to finally decide which one would be military city - i vote for copper one
I know we dont have wonderspammers here, but in my games Willem (and not only him) very often rushes for collosus. Especially if he has a need to build forges - and actually he does (gold in his borders visible). I hope we will finish it on time.
Where should i settle next city? On northern fur island or eastern city first?
If eastern - take a slot with double fish and iron or take horses?
---
Techs:
- towards Great library
- tech machinery manually to pay a vist to Rangar
- whip market anywhere run 2 merchants, wait for GM, bulb machinary - but propably it will come rather late O_O. Anyway, we will need some GM for bulbing or trade mission
- For sure i dont see any need for lib race, thus compass/optics/astronomy ASAP
---
How to balance military growth? We can easily raise happy cap now (forge +1 gold, markets +1 fur and +1 furs by itself, charismatic monument) - but i suppose it is a task after collosus
-- will play wend/thurs,
start forge/colossus
Start Moai ASAP for military
Things to decide
a) whip library first and then keeping happy cap in capital while building moai in capital
build forge in copper city and collosus
b) whip forge instead of library in capital, colossus in capital, moai in copper city (and later maybe try for late pyramids for fish-specialists)
So we have to finally decide which one would be military city - i vote for copper one
I know we dont have wonderspammers here, but in my games Willem (and not only him) very often rushes for collosus. Especially if he has a need to build forges - and actually he does (gold in his borders visible). I hope we will finish it on time.
Where should i settle next city? On northern fur island or eastern city first?
If eastern - take a slot with double fish and iron or take horses?
---
Techs:
- towards Great library
- tech machinery manually to pay a vist to Rangar
- whip market anywhere run 2 merchants, wait for GM, bulb machinary - but propably it will come rather late O_O. Anyway, we will need some GM for bulbing or trade mission
- For sure i dont see any need for lib race, thus compass/optics/astronomy ASAP
---
How to balance military growth? We can easily raise happy cap now (forge +1 gold, markets +1 fur and +1 furs by itself, charismatic monument) - but i suppose it is a task after collosus
-- will play wend/thurs,
justjohn
King
Don't forget Corsica. Currently Corsica is our city with the most production, it already is our most developed city (most buildings), it has Barracks and can whip (or build) promoted Axes, and as a minor point I already put 13 hammers into a Forge there (before Copper was hooked up). I think it is natural to put a Wonder in Corsica and/or make it a military factory.
Remember, there are two Settlers being built in just two turns. We need to decide both locations. My gut feeling is one with Iran and 2 Clams, and the other either by nothern Fur or by the western Horse + 2 Dyes. Since Willem already has Calendar, we could hope more get it and then we can trade for it not too long in the future.
You also mention Machinery. What kind of army forces are we thinking of using against Ragnar, our first target? We have Axes, with Iron we can have Swordmen. If we want to declare in 20 turns or so, then that's all we can get, and that should be enough.
dima42
Prince
jj, what turn did ragnar get enough on his hands right now?
justjohn
King
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
dima42
Prince
Ok, here is what I think after looking at the save in more detail:
*The most important exploration unit right now is a scout, not a galley. We should make one and send him inland.
*One city whips axes into colossus, another city whips axes into moai. At about 40 overflow hammers per whip, with a 2x for the resource, this should be 3 whips (240 hammers) and 5 turns of organic build (5*11*2 = 110 hammers) in Corsica. This is actually a bit too much and we won't use all of the third whip into the colossus, but the overflow can just go onto the next axe. Corsica is a must for one of these spots, and can produce the wonder within 10 turns of now.
*Elba is the natural second place because it is not as whipped out as Lyons right now, and can handle the 1 extra pop thanks to being the capital right now. It will also likely become a GP farm, and thus could use wonders. It will take like 2 turns longer because of less overflow and weaker organic building. But Elba is the natural GP farm in this game, and Moai isn't useful there, so I think Corsica should build Moai and Elba should get Colossus, despite the slower Colossus.
That's 6 axes. We need 12 (and 2 spearmen). We only need 12 because Ragnar is going to declare on someone, and it's very likely not us. (However, it might be worthwhile to park a galley by Nidaros to make sure of this.) It's usually a good idea to keep cities at about same level of slavery unhappiness, so this means one more whip in Lyons (a 2 pop galley whip; galley in Lyons because it is furthest from Ragnar), three axe whips in Orleans, a lighthouse whip at upper end of pop 3 in Paris, then a granary whip in Paris, then two axe whips in Paris, and a 2-pop granary whip followed by two axe whips in Rheims.
Replace two of the above axes with spears. This is 11 rather than 12 axes, but whatever, we'll deal. Somewhere in there there will be an organic axe produced?. Nah, probably not. Overflow into a scout somewhere early-ish.
The invasion plan I think should be a first group of axes marching along the northern peninisula, and a second group of axes delivered by three galleys directly to near Nidaros. Sucks to have to take Nidaros first without experience from the first combat, but the inefficiency of attacking Uppsala is too much...
Why is it ok to whip so much? Well, because our higher population is useless, and we're about to hook up gold. This brings me to my next point.
I think iron is less important than an extra luxury resource (we're getting iron from Nidaros anyway). Thus, I think the next two settlers should go on fur and dyes. Also, hook up spices as a priority (chop forest, then road, then plantation -- we should have calendar by then.)
*The most important exploration unit right now is a scout, not a galley. We should make one and send him inland.
*One city whips axes into colossus, another city whips axes into moai. At about 40 overflow hammers per whip, with a 2x for the resource, this should be 3 whips (240 hammers) and 5 turns of organic build (5*11*2 = 110 hammers) in Corsica. This is actually a bit too much and we won't use all of the third whip into the colossus, but the overflow can just go onto the next axe. Corsica is a must for one of these spots, and can produce the wonder within 10 turns of now.
*Elba is the natural second place because it is not as whipped out as Lyons right now, and can handle the 1 extra pop thanks to being the capital right now. It will also likely become a GP farm, and thus could use wonders. It will take like 2 turns longer because of less overflow and weaker organic building. But Elba is the natural GP farm in this game, and Moai isn't useful there, so I think Corsica should build Moai and Elba should get Colossus, despite the slower Colossus.
That's 6 axes. We need 12 (and 2 spearmen). We only need 12 because Ragnar is going to declare on someone, and it's very likely not us. (However, it might be worthwhile to park a galley by Nidaros to make sure of this.) It's usually a good idea to keep cities at about same level of slavery unhappiness, so this means one more whip in Lyons (a 2 pop galley whip; galley in Lyons because it is furthest from Ragnar), three axe whips in Orleans, a lighthouse whip at upper end of pop 3 in Paris, then a granary whip in Paris, then two axe whips in Paris, and a 2-pop granary whip followed by two axe whips in Rheims.
Replace two of the above axes with spears. This is 11 rather than 12 axes, but whatever, we'll deal. Somewhere in there there will be an organic axe produced?
. Nah, probably not. Overflow into a scout somewhere early-ish.The invasion plan I think should be a first group of axes marching along the northern peninisula, and a second group of axes delivered by three galleys directly to near Nidaros. Sucks to have to take Nidaros first without experience from the first combat, but the inefficiency of attacking Uppsala is too much...
Why is it ok to whip so much? Well, because our higher population is useless, and we're about to hook up gold. This brings me to my next point.
I think iron is less important than an extra luxury resource (we're getting iron from Nidaros anyway). Thus, I think the next two settlers should go on fur and dyes. Also, hook up spices as a priority (chop forest, then road, then plantation -- we should have calendar by then.)
dima42
Prince
If you ask him to try to declare on someone, he says "We have enough on our hands right now." This means he's getting ready to declare on someone. Do you know how long he's been in that state?
justjohn
King
This is not possible for the Colossus. Remember that you need a Forge to build the Colossus, and with a Forge, an Axe becomes a 1-pop whip with very little overflow.
Some other thoughts. I have several times (on Archi maps) combined a capital Moai with Bureaucracy, which works nice. Our new golden city also has a lot of food, but maybe it is not developed enough to become a GP farm when we need it. Elba is the simple choice, and maybe we don't want to run Bureaucracy anyway this game?
And I'm sorry, dima, but I didn't pay close attention to that part of the diplomacy, so I cannot say how many turns Ragnar's been "busy".
dima42
Prince
lol @ me forgetting that you need a forge for a colossus.
1. Where are we going to settle two cities?
2. I assume Corsica will build the Colossus. If whipping axes won't work, what could we whip to expedite the build?
3. Where will we put Moai? The Golden City? Corsica?
4. Do we want a science city where we'd build Oxford?
6. What techs do we require?
7. Barracks? Build one in Golden City, Elba and the one in Corsica for three? Or do we only want one?
8. How many triremes? galleys?
@ dima - how does the whip-wonderfail economy work? Do we need warriors for HR and military happiness? How many? Would we have funds to upgrade those warriors or would we bother?
Ragnar is in WHEOOHRN. Would/could he target us even at pleased? How do we handle the diplomacy when we find out who he's after?
2. I assume Corsica will build the Colossus. If whipping axes won't work, what could we whip to expedite the build?
3. Where will we put Moai? The Golden City? Corsica?
4. Do we want a science city where we'd build Oxford?
6. What techs do we require?
7. Barracks? Build one in Golden City, Elba and the one in Corsica for three? Or do we only want one?
8. How many triremes? galleys?
@ dima - how does the whip-wonderfail economy work? Do we need warriors for HR and military happiness? How many? Would we have funds to upgrade those warriors or would we bother?
Ragnar is in WHEOOHRN. Would/could he target us even at pleased? How do we handle the diplomacy when we find out who he's after?
fizbankovi
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2004
- Messages
- 278
nicem well played. How many turns are we planing/ turnset now?
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