SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

[dima42]

I agree with the micro plan through turn 75. Here's what I think about longer-term:

Pottery->writing is pretty obvious to me here. I am not yet convinced about Alphabet vs. going after the Masonry/Wonders route, but I favor the Alphabet possibilities. Meeting another tech-trading-friendly AI would clinch it for me.

So tech:
Pottery->Writing->Alphabet->MC->Construction->CoL (with prereqs if necessary), trading for early filler techs, IW, math, and eventually currency. MC is mostly for the trading and defending against barb galleys.

Expansion:
City on the NW island unless it's crap (have time to explore), City on the 8 square island to the far east, possibly a filler city on one of the small western islands, possibly a city to grab iron/copper.

Wonders:
Trying for a late pyramids sounds lucrative given the amount of SE economy we will be running here. Colossus is pretty obvious if we have copper; possibly if we don't have copper as well.

Aggression:
I'd really like to attack at the onset of catapults, because we need quality land. For this to happen:
We need to start building cats at construction in above tech tree. We should time about two each of swords/axes and six galleys before this, as well as about four land units and a couple galleys after this. This would have an initial strike force of eight cats, eight land units, and eight galleys.

I'd actually prefer to bear the brunt of exploring with galleys rather than workboats in this game, because we'll need the galleys.

Hopefully this will get lots of rebuttals and we'll have some productive discussion .

 

[Keath]

I agree with the micro plan through turn 75. Here's what I think about longer-term:

Pottery->writing is pretty obvious to me here. I am not yet convinced about Alphabet vs. going after the Masonry/Wonders route, but I favor the Alphabet possibilities. Meeting another tech-trading-friendly AI would clinch it for me.

Agreed - just that one issue about mining/chopping the stone forest.

So tech:
Pottery->Writing->Alphabet->MC->Construction->CoL (with prereqs if necessary), trading for early filler techs, IW, math, and eventually currency. MC is mostly for the trading and defending against barb galleys.

Check.

Expansion:
City on the NW island unless it's crap (have time to explore), City on the 8 square island to the far east, possibly a filler city on one of the small western islands, possibly a city to grab iron/copper.

Check, but we can explore the two tile island potential on way to check the north island.

Wonders:
Trying for a late pyramids sounds lucrative given the amount of SE economy we will be running here. Colossus is pretty obvious if we have copper; possibly if we don't have copper as well.

I would say that Colossus is big.

Aggression:
I'd really like to attack at the onset of catapults, because we need quality land. For this to happen:
We need to start building cats at construction in above tech tree. We should time about two each of swords/axes and six galleys before this, as well as about four land units and a couple galleys after this. This would have an initial strike force of eight cats, eight land units, and eight galleys.

I'll let the warmonger experts debate this one.

I'd actually prefer to bear the brunt of exploring with galleys rather than workboats in this game, because we'll need the galleys.

YES. I would use the work boat 4 for a little local exploration, then get it to next cities' resource. I'd feel much better with galleys exploring and lurking locally.

Hopefully this will get lots of rebuttals and we'll have some productive discussion .

YES, let the discussion begin.

 

[justjohn]

On running through the moves I discovered on Turn 71 that the mine for stone still has 6 turns. Was the worker to chop forest rather than mine? (Turn 68 - worker mines)

The real game does not have a forest on the stone hill tile.

I agree with the micro plan through turn 75. Here's what I think about longer-term:

Pottery->writing is pretty obvious to me here. I am not yet convinced about Alphabet vs. going after the Masonry/Wonders route, but I favor the Alphabet possibilities. Meeting another tech-trading-friendly AI would clinch it for me.

I agree we have to think about this.

So tech:
Pottery->Writing->Alphabet->MC->Construction->CoL (with prereqs if necessary), trading for early filler techs, IW, math, and eventually currency. MC is mostly for the trading and defending against barb galleys.

If we're able to trade up to Priesthood, then we should consider using Oracle for MC.

Expansion:
City on the NW island unless it's crap (have time to explore), City on the 8 square island to the far east, possibly a filler city on one of the small western islands, possibly a city to grab iron/copper.

Since Victoria came from the east, and if the map is Big and Small (of which I'm still not convinced), then we should find more AIs there, and therefore expanding in that direction is good. Otherwise I think the resources we find during exploring will tell us where to put our cities.

Wonders:
Trying for a late pyramids sounds lucrative given the amount of SE economy we will be running here. Colossus is pretty obvious if we have copper; possibly if we don't have copper as well.

Aggression:
I'd really like to attack at the onset of catapults, because we need quality land. For this to happen:
We need to start building cats at construction in above tech tree. We should time about two each of swords/axes and six galleys before this, as well as about four land units and a couple galleys after this. This would have an initial strike force of eight cats, eight land units, and eight galleys.

I'd actually prefer to bear the brunt of exploring with galleys rather than workboats in this game, because we'll need the galleys.

Hopefully this will get lots of rebuttals and we'll have some productive discussion .

When and how to attack is ain important decision, one which we will have to evaluate as we play. The game description said that the map was difficult for warring. That one sentence have tormented me for a while. What can we expect?

Maybe it's just a matter of logistics, i.e. difficult to move troops around. This was my initial though and the reason I thought the map was an Archipelago with Tiny Islands (which is still think is quite plausible). If logistics is the main obstacle and the map is filled with tiny islands, then how to we best battle it? Moving troops around with Galley would just take too much time, and if there are only tiny islands, we wouldn't gain much better land anyway. Hence in this scenario, would it be better to do some fast teching until we reach better vessels and units?

Or maybe it's not logistics, but that there are no strategic resources anywhere near us. What then? We would probably need Gunpowder, implying we need to build up for quite a while before warfare, probably including better vessels.

I'm not opposed to an earlier war using cats and whatnot, but I'm just afraid that it will not be possible. If the map is Big and Small, then for sure our first objective (when it comes to war) is to establish a beachhead on the main continent. After we take out one AI there, we can reorganize to whatever strategy is necessary.

As for exploration, my main hope for our exploring WB is to meet everyone and hopefully see where they are, not mapping out all land. I don't think we should send out more than that one WB, at most two. When we need better exploration, then we should use something else.

 

[dima42]

Regarding the map script, I am convinced that this is not "big and small" or "archipelago with tiny islands" or anything like that. Very simply: the mapmaker went through and made the map tile by tile. The AI have ample land and we don't. They are on one or two continents (possibly with England by itself). They are in contact with each other from the early game. There are geographic barriers on the mainland to prevent easy conquests.

I'd be extremely surprised if we could not get any strategic resources through some cleverness. But it's possible.

 

[Keath]

The real game does not have a forest on the stone hill tile.

I wondered why I had so much trouble getting that right.

As for exploration, my main hope for our exploring WB is to meet everyone and hopefully see where they are, not mapping out all land. I don't think we should send out more than that one WB, at most two. When we need better exploration, then we should use something else.

Mapping the fog has helped us plan a very suitable route east. If wb4 goes east to the eight tile island to check for a suitable city site, it would be well on the way to keep going. On the way (with updated de-fogging) we could check resources in prospective city sites that way getting two jobs done by one Magellan effort and losing little time on the way. That is the great thing about this de-fogged map. Very good stuff!

I'm betting we'll meet a few more Ai soon and I'll bet they are all to the east. Is there a way to tell if Vicki has met others?

 

[justjohn]

I'm betting we'll meet a few more Ai soon and I'll bet they are all to the east. Is there a way to tell if Vicki has met others?

Turn 61
Met Victoria from the west east, (has 1 city, and came with a workboat)
She has 108 points and 2/0 espionage ratio

On the very turn Victoria meets us, she spies on us 2 points. Hence she must have met someone else, and almost certainly only 1 or 2 others.

 

[Keath]

Good luck, fizbankovi!! - -

 

[justjohn]

There is one question that we should have discussed, I think:

Should we whip LH as soon as City2 reaches size 2, or just build it (since by then City2 can work both the improved Fish and the Stone hill with mine)? At the moment I lean towards whipping, unless we see that we need the whipping for something else. Also, if we do whip, then our Worker have time to road the stone hill before moving on the the desert hill.

Galley exploration: If the Warrior explores the 1-tile island as suggested, then its natural that the Galley explores the westward 2-tile island, the NW 3-tile island and the NW 7- tile island. It should ofc be done in such a way that all tiles that could be used by a city is covered. (Sry for stating the obvious.) That will take about 10 turns (depending on where we want to end up with our Galley), so we have a few to spare. Maybe take a look around the next 2-tile island westward, or the 2-tile island SW? And Keath is right that ist might be better to move the Galley to the tile 1W of Elba (instead of 1S of Elba) and let the Warrior enter Elba from there. Then the Galley can start by exploring the NW 7-tile island and circle west and south. Ofc, all this might be changed depending on what shows up.

 

[fizbankovi]

signing in for today, sorry guys didnt have interent until now!

 

[fizbankovi]

im starting the game planing to play according post 353 (upgraded PPP) i will tell you guys if anything comes up

 

[Keath]

Good stuff! I'll be around, for one. - -

 

[fizbankovi]

well sh** f**K look at this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3HJwlWbFktw/TXfRENFr-HI/AAAAAAAAAII/iZ3HQ8PGYlc/s1600/turn+64.jpg

we lost a realy good city place there...

i missed the se tile with warrior... im sorry

 

[fizbankovi]

which way should galley explore further?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RmeCwOuL5Ug/TXfWCA-vADI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/NfFEKAnBZCY/s1600/turn+71.jpg

 

[fizbankovi]

i am going to circle around the big island,

N, NE, NE, E

if thats ok ?

edit: i AM doing this move, i figure the galley needs to get back home, so forther W is to far.

 

[Keath]

^^What about moving the galley around the se peninsula, pick up the warrior and take him through the new city (change name to???) and back to Elba for MP if he can be there in time?

I guess the pig site would give us a 3f city and with the fish will be useful in the future...

edit:cross post -- your choice, as long as the warrior is back in time. There's lots of time for the galley to explore, I think.

 

[fizbankovi]

sorry Keath, i missed that post, i moved earlier...

i dicided to road the stone hill, so we can move on it without loosing a turn later. i think mining the desert hill can wait 3 turns?

 

[Keath]

If the stone is mined it will get 1f, 4p. That was the plan, I think. Then the desert hill.

 

[fizbankovi]

i altered the plan regarding the worker moves... i think it should be ok this way. i actualy played to turn 75 already, screenies and report comming up.

 

[fizbankovi]

Turnset report 2


Turn 63
Worker chops, we are down to rank 4 gdp, GLH City is rank 1 on top cities (pop 6)

Turn 64
Paris, for now, droped NE from stone hill. Reveals some nice land to the NE. I missed the scout move with the warrior…
Rank 2 at GDP
Turn 67
moved worker to the hill and started mining, warrior scouted 1 tile island, and now on his way home. No mistakes since warrior move.

Turn 69
Pottery finished, writing, warrior going home galley on its way to N.
Vicky WB scouting the South, so she is definitely on the near island to the east.
Elba doing Granary
Turn 70
2 pop whip on granary, going onto WB, Paris did not whip, just builds LH

Turn 72
Galley Is returning home around the big island, worker builds a road on stone hill, for later improvement, and hooking up the stone


Turn 75
Elba is pop 5, WB finished, Worker finished road, Galley is back home ready to scout or ferry, Elba needs new work orders, paris is 5 turns from lh, and 6 turns from growing

galley has not moved yet, WB 4 has not moved yet, worker has not moved yet


WE MEAT RAGNAR! Stoping point, uploading turnset report, and screenies.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XegtTIKCpIY/TXfeM3BEkDI/AAAAAAAAAIg/7NSe6wgWGN8/s1600/turn+75+demo.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AQYbfsUwnRw/TXfeHdnMZpI/AAAAAAAAAIY/TbWKFjliogU/s1600/turn+75.jpg

save uploaded

 

[Keath]

I've had a quick look and there is a lot to consider.... Good set, fiz. You've uncovered a lot of fog and things are picking up. Ragnar, you say..... Did you just meet him and which direction do you think he came from?

We have marble for a city on south tile of two tile island with clams.

The north island has beaver and crab.

And a city on the pig with fish and......

So far no copper.

So Victoria and Ragnar are our close(est) neighbours. Looks like we should go for Alphabet but getting Masonry would be good, too.

Let's go find these 'neighbours'!