kcd is up next if he can, otherwise Jovan, but I think he got bored with us. Anybody want to "get it"? I'm relatively free for the several days and am happy to keep playing but want to stop for awhile and discuss what to do. Without studying things (dangerous)... I'm intrigued by Paper since we can get a LOT of trade routes going really fast, which would help our economy a lot. Of course, so will being able to run merchants and scientists (and artists to pop borders). Maps would also help us with longer range war planning--the Great Lighthouse would be nice to capture, eh? I don't know what to do about tech trading, though, and am fuzzy on what to build next. Libraries for cities running scientists and markets for cities running merchants? Shall we build Moai in Chicago?
Just trying to bump up the population to run more specs after we revolt [edit: and also squeezing out a couple more commerce to get CS]. I don't think we want to whip anywhere except maybe LA (marble) to get the granary--but if we work the marble it wouldn't take too long to finish "naturally."
NE in Washington is the next goal imo. If we generate an extra GM earlier that's worth more than extra trade routes from Paper.
Hmm, I can see that. Going for Aesth and Lit would also increase our odds of getting the Music Artist. Need to check if the Southies have Lit yet--I don't think so. I'll bet we could beat them to Music--our tech rate will be crazy after we revolt. As for the Natl Epic in Wash, I'm not sure. It doesn't have many hammers (long time to build NE) nor food (not many specs). Boston or Chicago might be better on both counts (I need to look more closely at Chicago). Boston has LOTS of food AND hammers. We could run a ton of specs or have a lot of hammers but not at the same time. I see this as our main military city, but it could crank out a lot of specs GPs before we need all those hammers for war. It could also build beaker and/or gold multiplier buildings very quickly. See what you think.
[Edit: Note to self: Is the MoM gone yet? Do we want to build it?]
If it would help move the discussion along, I would be delighted to finish the turn, revolt, hit enter, and do some preliminary specialist assignments so we can see what kind of tech rate we'd be looking at. The marble city has a chop coming in soon so I don't think it's worth it to whip anything. I'd set research to 0% and Aesthetics. Courthouses aren't worth it yet so I'd build markets or libraries as appropriate in cities that need new builds. If in doubt I'd just build wealth for a turn.
I can make time to play if someone can help with the PPP. I think it is OK to whip even if a chop is coming in. The overflow goes to the next build or to cash, either of which is probably better than working unimproved tiles. I assume CS+Bur are coming now and we are paused to discuss last-minute whips and/tech path. We should also continue to explore... find out what it would take to get the Wiz. But I think its looking more like Paras.
I went ahead and played through the revolt to Caste/Bureau. I 1-whipped the granary in LA. (Or maybe I didn't. I sure thought I did, but the pop and hammers don't seem right. Eh, not a big deal either way.)
After adding sci's in cities with libraries and merchants elsewhere:
+19 gpt, 111 bpt @ 0%
-95 gpt, 260 bpt @100%
About 130 bpt at sustainable 15%.
Several cities are growing fast so we'll be able to add more specs soon, and I still have Boston mostly on production duty. At the sustainable rate we're looking at roughly 3 turns for Aesth, 3 for Lit, 8 for Music. Paper would be about 7. (If we build wealth we can shave a fair number of turns from these times.) At the moment we have 1 beaker invested in Aesthetics. GP from Wash in 5 turns, 6 turns for NY and Philly.
Preliminary PPP
Wash: Grow in 3, work nearly finished farm, continue growing until we can run another sci (making 5 sci's). Building a market (20).
NY: Build a lighthouse (7) to stabilize at running 3 sci's.
Boston: Workboat for SF in 2 turns, then finish library (3), lighthouse (3), and National Epic and Great Lib (maybe before NE if we're worried about the AIs). Plantation the recently de-jungled sugar when we get Calendar for extra food. In the meantime farm the jungle next to the lake. We can ultimately run 5 specs if we don't work the mines (plus 2 Great Lib sci's) but I think we need the hammers right now and the city still needs to grow onto farm(ed|able) tiles. If it takes the clams back from Houston it could run another 1.5 specs. Currently running 1 merchant.
Philly: Lighthouse (?) in 12, otherwise market (30) or courthouse (24). Currently running 3 sci's--can run 2 more with more population.
Atlanta: Finish galley (3), then ... barracks? I have it running 2 merchants but it could work 2 more mines (1 needs to be improved first). This mostly will be a production city.
Chicago: 2 chops just went into lighthouse. I'd build Moai next and let it grow work the lake and coastal tiles then keep growing and use extra pop as specs. Could be a pretty good production city. Build Wonders for failure gold?
Seattle: Growth in 2, now running 2 merchants and building a library (21). We can eventually chain irrigate down here and run more specs.
San Fran: Borders expand to get fish, cows, and copper in 5. Could run an artist instead of merchant to pop the borders in 1 turns but it won't immediately have the population to work new tiles (at least 3 turns). Finish granary (7--but chop coming in soon), then ... market? Courthouse? It'll have pretty good production and food--Boston will be sending down a workboat for the fish.
LA: Whipped granary--market next? Chop/farm next to river for growth. Mine the grass hill for more hammers and this city can take care of itself and run some specs after awhile.
Houston: Not sure what to do with this city--started a library but it has no hammers invested. It's using Boston's crabs at the moment to grow. It could work 2 of Boston's grass hill mines when Boston is running maximum specs but then it should give the crabs to Boston because of better multipliers.
Spy will take 18 turns to enter Indian territory by land--might be better/cheaper to just wait for Boston to build a galley to ship it over some day. Eh, it can explore on the way by land, so I guess have it continue overland. We should have pretty well explored the presumed ring of mountains within another 6 or so turns--our only hope for an opening is now on the north.
Nobody has Literature yet but everybody but the Westies (Monte/Gandhi) has Aesth. No change in what's available for tech trades. We could give Liz a pig for 2 gpt--we have plenty of health and will have another pig hooked up soon.
[Edit: Oh yeah, research! I'd say go for Aesth and Lit. If we're the first to Lit (or close) go for Music and save the Artist for a later Golden Age--we'll be getting only Merchants and Sci's so we'll need something else for later multi-GP GAs and don't want to burn the Artist right away. I think. For now, do we want only Sci's or some Merchants, too? Sending a Merchant on a grand trade mission is kind of risky (and slow) at this point. Would we settle for a mission to England via galley? Escort overland on a longer mission with a couple chariots? We should work out a bulbing plan for our Sci's: Philosophy, Edu, Lib'ism, and take Nationalism or MilTrad with Lib'ism?? After Music I'd say go for Paper and get those trade routes.
Tech trading: We'd like to get Calendar soon--workers are running out of things to do. Metal Casting and forges would be good for our production cities. But we might need to give too much away for those--or it might take forever to wait. I don't know what to do, but wouldn't count on getting anything from the AI.]
Save uploaded.
SpoilerSubmission log :
Turn 118, 75 AD: Philadelphia has grown to size 10.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Chicago has grown to size 4.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Chicago can hurry Lighthouse for 2⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Los Angeles can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 8ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the West has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the West has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the East has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the East has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South is the worst enemy of Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East is the worst enemy of Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the West/Good Witch of the West.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the South will trade Calendar, Construction, Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Calendar, Construction, Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 118, 75 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Chicago.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Chicago.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Los Angeles.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Washington will grow to size 12 on the next turn.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Seattle will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Los Angeles will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 118, 75 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Dorothy adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Dorothy adopts Caste System!
Turn 118, 75 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Good Witch of the North adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 118, 75 AD: Wicked Witch of the East adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 119, 100 AD: Good Witch of the South has 50 gold available for trade.
Oxford isn't worth much right now, actually. I think GLib speeds things up if we can get it. We want NE/HE too, and will need Music for Cuirs/Cavs, so if we want the goodies its probably better to go that route and then backtrack to Paper-edu. Could tech Med (since fast bulb astro is not necessary) and trade for Philo at some point, to get us Lib bonus.
I do not know how one concludes the AI don't have Lit yet since we do not have aesth and cannot see who has Lit. AI won't trade aesth/cal so they are likely going for wonders there. The other techs are monopolies (or they just don't like us enough).
We also have WHEOOHRN to consider.
What are our goals? How far up the tech tree do we envision neding to go?
Are the mountains a Red Herring? Why did they put a routine in the upload process to notify us if the Wiz gets killed by an AI if they would need paras? Archer in England and scouts on galley may show Oz on the NW spoke, and that significantly alters how much a long-term investment in infra is valued.
The PPP looks OK to me, but I think we'd do well to have some strategic discussions at this point.
BTW... I keep having trouble posting... my posts go to a white screen, and pressing the "back" button gives me an empty form. So I'm now copying all my posts before submitting in case I have to submit them again. Anybody else having this problem? Or is it just my system (I have noticed other glitches in other forums so I suspect my own system)?
Oxford isn't worth much right now, actually. I think GLib speeds things up if we can get it. We want NE/HE too, and will need Music for Cuirs/Cavs, so if we want the goodies its probably better to go that route and then backtrack to Paper-edu. Could tech Med (since fast bulb astro is not necessary) and trade for Philo at some point, to get us Lib bonus.
I agree. As Yamps pointed out, getting NE quickly will net us more than getting more trade routes with Paper and maps (although I think that should remain high on our list).
I do not know how one concludes the AI don't have Lit yet since we do not have aesth and cannot see who has Lit. AI won't trade aesth/cal so they are likely going for wonders there. The other techs are monopolies (or they just don't like us enough).
I was going by the "Can Research" list. Music doesn't show for anybody who has Aesthetics, while Lit does. Confirmation would be good, though. Yeah, we probably won't be able to get Aesth or Cal in trade until the AI finish their wonder(s).
I keep forgetting to check--are Rag/Asoka still in WHEOOHRN? The only way they can get to us is by land and we have fogbusting warriors posted in the hub (and a spy on the way) so we'd have a fair amount of warning. Boston would be our unit pump--do we have barracks there yet? We'll have roads all the way to SF next turn so we can get units down there pretty quickly. Horses are hooked up now and we could pick up HBR in a couple turns. SF will be able to grow very quickly soon and will have the copper mine, etc. so it'll have decent production. I think I had an axe on his way there, and there's another archer nearing Boston--I wasn't sure whether to send him down the spoke or to garrison Seattle, which is currently empty.
Are the mountains a Red Herring? Why did they put a routine in the upload process to notify us if the Wiz gets killed by an AI if they would need paras? Archer in England and scouts on galley may show Oz on the NW spoke, and that significantly alters how much a long-term investment in infra is valued.
Maps would help a lot. If we don't see Oz anywhere in the AI maps then settling next to the mountains and letting our culture expand so we can see inside is an option, but it would very likely be a pretty crappy city--maybe we can find a semi-decent site.
What are our goals? How far up the tech tree do we envision needing to go? ...
The PPP looks OK to me, but I think we'd do well to have some strategic discussions at this point.
Yeah, we need to think. Tech order (short and longer range), bulbing strategy, GP plan, Golden Ages...
Yes, I've been having trouble with the sever for days. When it hangs after I post I just leave it alone--usually my post gets through. You can open another tab or window and load our thread to see if your latest post succeeded without interrupting the original effort.
We'll need 2 GS for Edu and 1 GS for Liberalism. Philosophy we might be able to trade. It would be good to get Calendar in trade, Monarchy as well to unlock Feudalism.
I believe we'll need Paras. The notification would be there in all cases, with Oz behind the mountains or not so no info here. It's logical that he is isolated, he'd cause too much trouble to the AI otherwise.
I'll open the save later tonight for more comments.
I think we'll need more workers to farm all grassland tiles fast. NY needs some help for example.
We'll be able to hire specialists in many cities, let's do that. We don't have to build much right now, let's just keep some forces to be safe. No Moai right now imo.
Some care is needed with GP managment, let's plan ahead.
General idea: tech fast to MT, conquer India and England, tech fast to tech needed to kill Oz(likely Paras), conquer everyhing.
I basically agree with Yamps. I'll try to forecast what that means we need to do (and this is what we should discuss, though not so much is specific to the PPP):
Tech path:
Aesth
Lit (build GLib in ]Washington?]; NE in ___ and HE eventually in [Boston?])
Music (free GA)
Cal (by trade)
MetalW (by trade)
Paper
Edu (2xGSci bulb)
Med (by hand; not sure when about bulb order here, don't want to bulb philo for sure)
Philo (by trade if possible)
Nationalism
Liberalism (Gsci bulb?) ->Mil Trad
Gunpower (by trade if available?) (Cuirs)
PPr
Rep Parts
Rifling --(Cavs)
In no particular order we also need:
Chemistry, Sci Meth, Physics(free GS), Steel, Steam Power, RR, Combustion, Flight, Compass, Machinery, Optics, Guilds, Banking, Econ(free GM), Corp, Ass Line, Fascism(free GG).
Just to get paratroopers. And I maybe left off some stuff. I think we should concentrate on Cuir/Cavs for the moment and plan to kill someone (everyone) with those before they get rifling.
As for the PPP... getting the optimum mix of specialists I could use some help. Otherwise Xcals suggestions seem reasonable. Anyone else?
We need HBR in there, maybe after Paper if we have to research it ourselves. We'll want stables in cities that will build cuirs. We'll need Construction and Engineering for Chemistry, too.
Great Lib in Wash? Good for getting the academy bonus, but Boston can build it a lot faster and if we build the National Epic in Boston then we also benefit from the extra GPPs. I don't think any city can compete with Boston for the number of specialists it can run, although we'll have to trade some of them for mines when we go into war production mode. Also, assuming we put both NE and HE in Boston, we'll have filled up Boston's national wonder slots and we can't build Iron Works or whatever later. That's pretty late in the game, though, so probably not a big deal. If we don't build NE in Boston then where would it go? Washington? Again, that'll take awhile to build, although not as bad as the Great Lib. We can see how close behind us the AIs are when we get Lit, and compare building times in Boston vs Wash.
No Maoi in Chicago? Too many hammers? We just got a big overflow from chops and there are more forests up there--we could get it pretty quickly. It could then build Wonders for failure gold while still growing and getting more commerce--I think this works out as least as well as running specs as long as we don't have significant hammer decay waiting for the AIs to finish Wonders. It also leaves us with a pretty strong production city (that can also run lots of specs when needed) as opposed to a small farming community.
How worried are people about getting attacked? Only Rag/Asoka are in WHEOOHRN and they can only get to us via the spoke. We're sending spare units down there and have warriors on the outer perimeter for advance warning. Boston is nearby and connected by road. How about having SF build its own workboat and changing Boston's build from workboat to barracks, just in case? It can pump out axes, spears, and chariots every turn and a half if needed--surely adequate. And we can research HBR for horse archers in 2 turns.
Do we really need more workers? They ain't cheap, and we don't grow while they're being built, which is a bit self-defeating if we're focused on farming so we can grow faster. Apart from perhaps NY I think we're keeping up with farming and other improvements quite well. And after all those workers are done farming, what are they going to do? We only have a few plantations to build. Only a couple cities will benefit from workshops. We're adequately connected by roads--more would be good but there's no urgency.
If, as is likely, we turn out not to be Rag/Asoka's war target, should we consider a bit more expansion?
I updated our game report and noticed that there are 3 spoilers, one for each month. Hey, isn't the game only supposed to last 4 months? Why yes, it ends on December 10! That's 45 days from now.
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I'd say go for Aesth and Lit. If we're the first to Lit (or close) go for Music and save the Artist for a later Golden Age--we'll be getting only Merchants and Sci's so we'll need something else for later multi-GP GAs and don't want to burn the Artist right away. I think. For now, do we want only Sci's or some Merchants, too? Sending a Merchant on a grand trade mission is kind of risky (and slow) at this point. Would we settle for a mission to England via galley? Escort overland on a longer mission with a couple chariots? We should work out a bulbing plan for our Sci's: Philosophy, Edu, Lib'ism, and take Nationalism or MilTrad with Lib'ism?? After Music I'd say go for Paper and get those trade routes.
Why yes, it ends on December 10! That's 45 days from now. 
