SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element
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Shaandore
another mathematician
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1) OK 1S of rice, but not spices there.
Can we settle 1s of rice? its 2 diagonal steps from the barb city, and they are on the same landmass...
There is no Spice in the vicinity, so I don't know what you are talking about.
If we can settle 1S of rice, we need a border pop to have a passage, but with settling 1SE of rice, we have a passage right after getting ready with the two forts. (I admit that it takes more worker turns, but I think it will still be faster than waiting for border pop, if I build a worker in Anvil as planned) We could speed up the border pop by building a missionary in Hammer, and we would have roughly the same timeline.
But the question really comes down to whether we can settle 1S of rice.
2) no, only strategic cities. We must to take in account the dom limit by the end of the game. If we can keep all the good cities we capture it's far better than plant new cities. I think that many resources are there to bait us. Don't fall in the trap.
Absolutely agree. Even double gems are net loss without rathaus at this point. By the time we set it up, it won't have enough time to contribute.
About your conservative warring
what you said can be true - and probably is - for the AP city which has many units. We have 4 turns before the new election, so that is the limit.
But for Angkor a cat and a treb will level the road for our attackers, with only 3 units there and only one of them is a LB.
I will bombard Harihara for sure, it is also on hills, so we can use every bit of help. For Angkor, I would like to catch up with the medic stack, so I will bombard with the full health guys this turn, so the others can heal. Next turn bombard with all trebs except 1 or 2, and sacrifice the cat and 1 or 2 trebs. Then take the city.
BTW where do we plan to use the 2nd Confu Missionary 1E of Goldfoot?
Great, all input is welcome!
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Ask UT. Any of the Khmer cities, i presume.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
No, there're spices few tiles SE of the double gems, but we don't care them. Soon we'll have Qin's spices
About the WestBridge city, you're right, we can't settle it 1S of rice. I used WB, but you can simply move the settler there without actually moving it and you can see the city icon greyed.
So yes, we need to settle it where the worker stands and we need 2 forts. The E one can be where i marked or 1N, at choice. Map:
Spoiler :
Do not pillage the farm, it can be used until the fort is built.
Move the worker in the jungle 1W of it to build a road.
Pillage where i signed, it's free gold.
I suppose you agree about Khazak, raze it for conquest gold and pillage everything but roads before to take Khoisan. We need the troops there fot it, so we can delay and use the time to build the forts.
About Khmer, i think your plan will work. I noticed just now that we used a 3rd GG for a scout and we did not even promoted him to M3. UT must explain this
. So promoted is a complete waste. We has the HA ready in Goldfoot. He's got not much chances to defend the stack than a chariot. And he could have been used for mot up injured units, to gain XP to arrive to morale. Now we need a 4th super medic, a para. But later.Anyway he can reach the stack for Angkor this turn and next one swap with the chariot in Hari. The injured trebs will heal a bit.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Well the spices I talked about were whatever I saw on the pic south of the rice. Guessing it isn't spices after all. The medic was supposed to be M3 but when I went to click c1, the promotion icons shifted and on my wife's computer there is some delay so he got hill1 instead. It was a mistake but we at least have a M2 for the second stack.
Yes missionaries are for kymer cities. Pisa is a crappy city that can't build much so a made a couple missionaries.
Yes missionaries are for kymer cities. Pisa is a crappy city that can't build much so a made a couple missionaries.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
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A fourth medic is not necessary since we can airlift one or two medics in no time to the first city we take.
Too bad about the scout though, it's kind of a waste. Medic 2~= medic 1, because medic 2 only heals the guys on surrounding tiles. But still having a medic 1 is better than nothing.
Research wise I like Blub's 0% on Nationalism plan.
Too bad about the scout though, it's kind of a waste. Medic 2~= medic 1, because medic 2 only heals the guys on surrounding tiles. But still having a medic 1 is better than nothing.
Research wise I like Blub's 0% on Nationalism plan.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Correct. This is another good reason to selectively keep the cities we conquer and to not plant any new one.
Before to see the whole map i thought we needed the 2 barb cities on the coast S of Peter, but we don't. So we can raze them for conquest gold.
Since we seem to agree on any point, can you post a new PPP (a copy/paste with variations) so we can see if it needs more refining before you start play?
I scattered some hints, i suppose you agree with. Can you include them so i'm sure you did not lost them?
Shaandore
another mathematician
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PPP
Research and Diplo:
Switch to 0% and Nationalism until Oxford is ready.
Trade Lib for Compass+???+110 gold. I guess we can't get music+compass (too lazy to open the game now) but then maybe we should skip Theo too because it only raises WFYABTA limit. Or skip the trade altogether. Why give our enemies a strong tech for just 110 gold and a cheap tech? Some input on this would be nice.
War:
Take Harihalaya and Angkor Thom. Bombard Hari for 3 turns, and Angkor for 1 turn, then go in.
raze Hariharalaya to get rid of AP
Upgrade 3-4 trebs to cannons in Angkor before moving on.
Cities:
Establish new city where the worker stands, and build two forts to have a passage to the west without landing any units. Pillage unnecessary farms that Lie outside BFCs. Hades Anvil builds a worker to help building the forges and improve the new city. Hades hammer builds 2 LBs to spawnbust and protect the land.
Sail three or four cannons and 1-2 muskets west to get Koishan and raze+pillage Khazak.
Most of our cities will build cannons with a couple muskets because they have no counters, and a couple knights thrown in there for mobility.
Mainz works 6 specs (4 merchant, engineer, spy) to get a max probability non-scientist in 11 turns. Meanwhile we build a theater to have artist slots.
Vienna finishes Oxford, then its bank, then a Harbour.
Ulm gets the next GP, maybe with some starving towards the end.
Whip forges and Rathauses in Luxemburg and Strasbourg.
Research and Diplo:
Switch to 0% and Nationalism until Oxford is ready.
Trade Lib for Compass+???+110 gold. I guess we can't get music+compass (too lazy to open the game now) but then maybe we should skip Theo too because it only raises WFYABTA limit. Or skip the trade altogether. Why give our enemies a strong tech for just 110 gold and a cheap tech? Some input on this would be nice.
War:
Take Harihalaya and Angkor Thom. Bombard Hari for 3 turns, and Angkor for 1 turn, then go in.
raze Hariharalaya to get rid of AP
Upgrade 3-4 trebs to cannons in Angkor before moving on.
Cities:
Establish new city where the worker stands, and build two forts to have a passage to the west without landing any units. Pillage unnecessary farms that Lie outside BFCs. Hades Anvil builds a worker to help building the forges and improve the new city. Hades hammer builds 2 LBs to spawnbust and protect the land.
Sail three or four cannons and 1-2 muskets west to get Koishan and raze+pillage Khazak.
Most of our cities will build cannons with a couple muskets because they have no counters, and a couple knights thrown in there for mobility.
Mainz works 6 specs (4 merchant, engineer, spy) to get a max probability non-scientist in 11 turns. Meanwhile we build a theater to have artist slots.
Vienna finishes Oxford, then its bank, then a Harbour.
Ulm gets the next GP, maybe with some starving towards the end.
Whip forges and Rathauses in Luxemburg and Strasbourg.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Knights are far superior to any unit until rifles. Don't underestimate them. Especially against barbs, which can't build pikes.
It's my turn to be lazy
Does Anvil have barracks? I doubt.And don't forget the Medics moves that i suggested.
Shaandore
another mathematician
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Anvil is building its barracks currently. Will do the medic switch, or better say that the better medic will stay behind with the more injured, and the healthy will move on to next target. Later the upgraded trebcannons will move out with the healed guys.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
It's Hammer building barracks 
We need to discuss 2 National wonders: Ironworks and FP.
There're aren't many cities which can support the IW: Florence, Vienna, Aachen.
I think Vienna can be discarded having already the Bureau bonus. Florence with some RP watermills can do well and also Aachen with a couple WS.
Usually i choose a coastal city for the IW due to the harbor.
The FP is somewhat strange in this map. We have higher maintenance in our NE cities than in our NW or Goldfoot. It can depend by the size.
Anyway i think that the best city for it is Hammer, since we're oriented to keep the 3 Russian riverside cities and Khoisan.
In fact, Khmer and China are closer to our Capital than many of our core cities. Vienna stands almost in the perfect center of the NE corner roughly keeping any city also of the SE corner at the same distance.
Things start to change starting from Gao and Kumbi, worsening from Anvil to the East.
We can consider also the Jap cities, or Beijing. But i think that the best output is if we build it soon in Hammer.
Another point: if you raze/pillage Khazak, you can do the same with Yayoi. The cities are connected by railroad, thus it's not a painful jungle travel. When we arrive to Khoisan, we must do it in forces, to be ready to an attack. Peter is a bastard, usually.
With cannons, muskets and knights we can also consider to start a 2 front war: China and Russia.
We need to discuss 2 National wonders: Ironworks and FP.
There're aren't many cities which can support the IW: Florence, Vienna, Aachen.
I think Vienna can be discarded having already the Bureau bonus. Florence with some RP watermills can do well and also Aachen with a couple WS.
Usually i choose a coastal city for the IW due to the harbor.
The FP is somewhat strange in this map. We have higher maintenance in our NE cities than in our NW or Goldfoot. It can depend by the size.
Anyway i think that the best city for it is Hammer, since we're oriented to keep the 3 Russian riverside cities and Khoisan.
In fact, Khmer and China are closer to our Capital than many of our core cities. Vienna stands almost in the perfect center of the NE corner roughly keeping any city also of the SE corner at the same distance.
Things start to change starting from Gao and Kumbi, worsening from Anvil to the East.
We can consider also the Jap cities, or Beijing. But i think that the best output is if we build it soon in Hammer.
Another point: if you raze/pillage Khazak, you can do the same with Yayoi. The cities are connected by railroad, thus it's not a painful jungle travel. When we arrive to Khoisan, we must do it in forces, to be ready to an attack. Peter is a bastard, usually.
With cannons, muskets and knights we can also consider to start a 2 front war: China and Russia.
Sorry, I was tired yesterday and I was agreeing with everyone. I think build cannons and conquer. I would give Koishan low priority.
Shaandore
another mathematician
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IW is a waste on this map IMO. We would need to say hello to our best prod spot for 20-30 turns. I would wait to have an actual production city before even considering that.
Forbidden Palace is something we need to place carefully. I think Japanese territory would be optimal, but it's a long way down the road, and we probably don't want to wait so long. Hammer looks okay, but we will have ~3-4 cities in the NW quarter, and we already decided to keep more than 4 in the south. So why not build it in Beijing or thereabouts?
Sorry about the Anvil-Hammer mixup.
I'll do the trade: Compass+Music+110g <-> Lib with Qin.
@Folket: Koishan is high priority because it gives us trade routes to Peter. Khazak and Yayoi are middle of the map barb cities in the jungle. They have some cottages, but we consider to raze/pillage them to keep dom limit threat to minimum.
EDIT: as discussed earlier, we can't build a city 1S of Rice because there is a barb city nearby. We could build it in th enorth and build only 1 fort, but then we would lose the dye. So 1SE of rice looks best for now. Harbour before Bank: good point!
Forbidden Palace is something we need to place carefully. I think Japanese territory would be optimal, but it's a long way down the road, and we probably don't want to wait so long. Hammer looks okay, but we will have ~3-4 cities in the NW quarter, and we already decided to keep more than 4 in the south. So why not build it in Beijing or thereabouts?
Sorry about the Anvil-Hammer mixup.
I'll do the trade: Compass+Music+110g <-> Lib with Qin.
@Folket: Koishan is high priority because it gives us trade routes to Peter. Khazak and Yayoi are middle of the map barb cities in the jungle. They have some cottages, but we consider to raze/pillage them to keep dom limit threat to minimum.
EDIT: as discussed earlier, we can't build a city 1S of Rice because there is a barb city nearby. We could build it in th enorth and build only 1 fort, but then we would lose the dye. So 1SE of rice looks best for now. Harbour before Bank: good point!
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
We already discussed this and i tried it in WB. The chosen spot is not possible, so we have to take what we can and build 2 forts.
Khoisan is a startegic city, Khazak is buried in the jungle S of Hammer. Yayoi is even deep in the jungle. Conquest+pillage gold is the reason and the railroad so we don't have to waste many turns in movement and away cost.
About caravels, i recommended to always keep an empty galley stacked with the loaded ones, so at worse we lose that.
I said we need to discuss the option. We did it. I mostly agree that we can evaluate the option later.
About the FP, building it in Hammer we have 4 cities W of it and 3 E.
I do not think we want to keep the easternmost Jap cities, they look crap, but Beijing can be a candidate.
I think the distance is higher in the Hammer area and W of it than in Japan, but i can be wrong.
You are good to go.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Yes, once a city has a Rathaus. But if we capture the 3 Russian cities without it...
So we need 3 forts and the chances are really low. If we were Louis maybe.
We don't have any GSpy. ATM our spy can steal no more than compass and with the 45% chances. I won't base a research plan on that. I think it's better use our spies for cities revolt to save turns of bombardment.
I was posting about the TR with Peter, then i forgot to do. No TR but maybe some resource... until we destroy him.Right, I forgot that we are in Mercantilism. It would still be good to trade some resources though.
I'll play tonight after I get home. (It will be late, but I won't chicken out, I promise)
I'll watch the thread, good luck!
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