SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Load SW and Chariot in Anvil on Galley and attack Hammer on next turn.
Attacking with all cats and treb for collateral damage. Then WEs then SWs then Axe.

No, no, Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!


You start THIS TURN
2 or 3 cats, then a WE or the first defender will stay unharmed or almost. Then cats. Once the CR2 sword have better than 1% chances, use it.

The GG stack will finish the job after the treb, which shoud survive. If you play it well.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay I'll play as BL says on the Hammer attack.

Hammer has fallen. It actually went very well. Survivors are 1 Treb, 1 WE, 3 SW, 1 Axe and our General Chariot. Plus I have another SW and Chariot ready to land next turn from Anvil.

GM is is Nanjing.


I still have to do everything else in the inherited turn but I wanted to get that out of the way so we could focus on other issues.

 

[BLubmuz]

Use General with the Chariot to make a medic
OK, it's even too late. We're paying maintence for 2 untis instead of 1

Can use some ideas for the workers
for what i can see, mostly farms. I see a mine for Niani to give it some hammers. It's not so food intensive to be whipped badly.

Cities:
Augsberg: Globe -> Kn->Cat->Treb
Nur: Grocer -> Bank
Mainz: LK-> Bank
Ulm: Treb->Bank
Bridge: Castle
DJenne: Kn->Treb-> Treb
Timb: Kn->Bank
Gao: Kn (1 turn)->Bank (Whip as possible)
Goldfoot: Gran->RatH
Flo: Mon-> Treb-> Treb->Kn
Nian: Forge
Kumb: Lib
Walata: Barracks->Bank
Pisa: Rath->Forge
Anvil: Rath
Lux: Gran
Strasb: Gran
Aachen: Trireme->LK->LK->LK
Prague: Kn-> Treb-> Treb-> Treb
Vienna: Grocer-> Bank

Aside Vienna i would delay the banks.
And aside the basic structures in the new cities (granary, library, forge and rathaus) i'd like to see 2-3 units out of any city before any structure. Maybe whip 2nd or 3rd one into a structure.

About Vienna, it's better if it works the mine and Pisa take back the riverside cottage, until it finishes grocer and bank.

On workers, there's a lot to do in the crabs area, with a better ROI than in any other place. See also if our road network can be optimized to gain some turn.

Take Hammer NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

 

[unclethrill]

Aside Vienna i would delay the banks.
And aside the basic structures in the new cities (granary, library, forge and rathaus) i'd like to see 2-3 units out of any city before any structure. Maybe whip 2nd or 3rd one into a structure.

About Vienna, it's better if it works the mine and Pisa take back the riverside cottage, until it finishes grocer and bank.

On workers, there's a lot to do in the crabs area, with a better ROI than in any other place. See also if our road network can be optimized to gain some turn.

Take Hammer NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I'll look over these suggestions in the morning. I still disagree on the banks but if the team wants less banks and more units I'll change the plans. I think we need them to support this war and future wars.

See above edit. Hammer has fallen!

 

[BLubmuz]

According to F1, the higher commerce cities are: Vienna, Timbu, Gao, Kumbi, Ulm and Nuremberg. Those surely deserve a bank. But we need also units and even if i see the benefits, we have more if we build at least 1 unit in most of them.
Asterisk on your list

Cities:
Augsberg: Globe -> Kn->Cat->Treb -3
*Nur: Grocer -> Bank i'd like a unit first, maybe with a whip to 1-2 turns into the grocer
Mainz: LK-> Bank -1 There's an Xbow there and i'd like to see it in Hammer. Build another instead of the LK, better 2. Then a grocer but not a bank
*Ulm: Treb->Bank -1 Whip the treb into a grocer - treb - bank
Bridge: Castle OK + Rat
DJenne: Kn->Treb-> Treb -3
*Timb: Kn->Bank -1 like Ulm: Whip the Kn into a grocer - unit - bank
*Gao: Kn (1 turn)->Bank (Whip as possible) -0 This city is not good for units: LH and Library, then grocer
Goldfoot: Gran->RatH OK
Flo: Mon-> Treb-> Treb->Kn -0 finish mon, LH, grocer - or barracks if you want units
Nian: Forge OK
*Kumb: Lib OK, then grocer or market
Walata: Barracks->Bank no sense in building barracks - bank: or you use the barraks or you wait to build them. I'm for the first, mostly because it has low commerce for now (only fresh water)
Pisa: Rath->Forge OK
Anvil: Rath we need it, but a granary first?
Lux: Gran OK
Strasb: Gran OK but let Aachen work the cottage and work the ivory
Aachen: Trireme->LK->LK->LK -3 swap a LK with a Xbow
Prague: Kn-> Treb-> Treb-> Treb -4
*Vienna: Grocer-> Bank OK

I've put the numbers to ease myself: 16 units planned. (i deleted some you planned)
Not counting the Xbow (for Hammer) and the GG, we have 2 trebs, 1 Kn and 1LK ready: 4 units. 3WE, 4 cats 1 HA in Goldfoot and some obsolete unit good for defense.

It's not exactly what you can call a SoD maybe a SoT (Stack of Trouble) Surely with an army like that the only Doom i can see is for ourselves.

Hammer has fallen!

Can we know the price? And if the city came with some building?

 

[unclethrill]

I agree with changes. It will be tonight before I can look at save and give specifics on losses and buildings. I would like to play tonight unless there is something else to discuss.
I did post what units we have left. We for sure lost all cats, 1 or 2 WE, and a SW or 2 but we still have a decent stack to defend until we can get a xb and lb over there.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree with changes. It will be tonight before I can look at save and give specifics on losses and buildings. I would like to play tonight unless there is something else to discuss.
I did post what units we have left. We for sure lost all cats, 1 or 2 WE, and a SW or 2 but we still have a decent stack to defend until we can get a xb and lb over there.

Good to see you agree. I know yesterday i was vague, but now i have carefully examinated the save.

Where i set 0 i meant that the city needs structures and build units there takes too long.
i.e. Gao must have all the research and economic buildings, then build whealth or research. Units there are a waste.

And before build a unit verify if the city has barracks.

I think we also need some missionary... too many things to do and too few hammers. But do what you can.

If we set a target of 15 trebs at least ready (i mean, built but not yet at the front) before start the war and a mix of 15-20 units i doubt you can be ready by turn 170.

And don't forget some LB to keep in the cities, but which must move with the stack.

So, by the end of the war we need some 6-7 LBs at least.

About research there's nothing to discuss until Edu is in.

I presume the team will approve your varied plan. In case noone chimes in, go ahead.

 

[Folket]

I think LK makes better defence then LB. Are LBs cheaper or something?

I say siege, LK and knight only.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think LK makes better defence then LB. Are LBs cheaper or something?

I say siege, LK and knight only.

LBs are cheaper and protective, so in a city they are better than any other unit until rifles. LK are good in the field, but to attack a city with LBs maces are better. Knights are better than anything else if they do not find pikes. But they are expensive.

I think that maces and LK can be about 6/4. Xbws are good too for field defence, but a couple is enough.

But what we really need is siege. And not only trebs, cats are better in the field.

Since you not commented about the builds i presume you mostly agree.

And we must have good units in Hammer, it's full of barbs around.

 

[Folket]

I mostly agree.

 

[unclethrill]

I mostly agree.

Well what changes do you have and what about workers. I would like to start in about 6 hours with some turns

 

[BLubmuz]

Well what changes do you have and what about workers. I would like to start in about 6 hours with some turns

I quote myself to gather my comments on workers and citizen assignment scattered on various posts:

On workers, there's a lot to do in the crabs area (2 fresh cities), with a better ROI than in any other place. See also if our road network can be optimized to gain some turn. Mainly E of Aachen.
In the almost developed cities, mostly farms. If they are hammer poor some workshop.
Cottages in Mainz BFC to be worked by Pisa initially, then i think that Pisa needs a mix of cottages, farms and workshops. I think it will be our hybrid city.
Basically if an area has cottages, build cottages, if farms, farms and so on
I see a mine for Niani to give it some hammers. It's not so food intensive to be whipped badly, so it needs hammers. It's also surrounded by jungle, so better clean.

A rule of thumb is to not clear jungle and not build an improvement if there's jungle adjacent or we risk it re-grows. But you know well this.

On MM i noticed only Vienna, it's better if it works the mine and Pisa take back the riverside cottage, until it finishes grocer and bank. Probably a LH can be a good build.
And Aachen, which can take back the cottage while the city NE can work the unimproved ivory.

 

[Shaandore]

I agree with both the city builds and worker improvements that Blub suggested. Green light from me.

 

[unclethrill]

Played to T163. ~3 or 4 turns. Stopping because it's late.

Met Peter. He is in the NW corner. Looks to be mostly or completely blocked by more water. I think that one strategically placed city and a couple forts and we can sail units from city East of Anvil (I forget the name) all the way to Russia. Russia and Sury have paper already. I got his WM +10 gold for our map. And got 60 gold for Mono from him.

I attached the save if anyone wants a detailed look. Be careful though I have moves queued up for the next couple turns so ...

Plan to play more tomorrow but with at least 2 AI having paper, Lib may be a risk. Also, Sury has completed the sistine in his southern most city

 

[BLubmuz]

Played to T163. ~3 or 4 turns. Stopping because it's late.

Met Peter. He is in the NW corner. Looks to be mostly or completely blocked by more water. I think that one strategically placed city and a couple forts and we can sail units from city East of Anvil (I forget the name) all the way to Russia. Russia and Sury have paper already. I got his WM +10 gold for our map. And got 60 gold for Mono from him.

Maybe with the GS Lib is still doable. The problem is that we can't have an interesting tech. Nationalism for the Taj, but the Taj will be soon built by Qin. Or Economics for the GM.
We do not have the prerequisites for Astro, which would be a disaster for our economy. In any case is out of reach. Gunpowder if we think to use it for muskets.

A city on the coast (which is a lake) 3S of the border with a fort over the farm 1SW of where i think it placed (the river can be better improved than with a fort) will give access to Peter with the ships we can build in 4 cities: the Hades, Gao and Kumbi.

Another choice can be to build the city 1S of rice, to have the only visible source of dyes in BFC. It will be less nice than the first i proposed, but we can have 1 in any city, 2 with theathers.

The barb city will be our foothold, hopefully.

Have you noticed the ice S of Peter? I can bet that the last AI is isolated by ice and mountains. But our GM will confirm this soon. If so it's paras guys

Keep it up UT, but bring units to Hammer. And promote the WE to shock.

Build LBs!!!

 

[Folket]

Revolt to mercantilism.

Never allow Augberg to grow into unhealth. Do not run any specialists here.

Build a settler to settle pig, dye, rice banana. We will need the city so we mgiht as well get it sooner to get use of the dye resource. It has plenty of food and will be productive pretty shortly.

Don't work workshops in Timbuktu. All these workshops should be made cottages. We have an academy and are far away from assembly line.

I think we should lib printing press. Libing nationalism is a good choice as well. I just like rifling a little better.

China is pretty happy with us. He may enter the war if Khmer bribes him. We can bribe him to declare on Japan and he will cause no problems.

We can also steal compass from him. Not a priority tech but harbour would be great in Vienna. The harbour in Vienna will probably pay for the tech by itself in less then 40 turns.

 

[Folket]

I think this looks great. I'm not that impressed by LBs. I think unclethrill can use his judgement on how many LBs we should build.

I would like to see two more spies being built. And perhaps more siege. Khmer does not have horses so huge stacks of siege should be a safe bet.

 

[Shaandore]

Yummy FP cottage cities in Peter's land.

And flat land too. Looks like he doesn't have horses. I think we should start preparing for some fun with him soon.

As for lib tech, I think we have a pretty good amount of techs to choose from:
- Economics for GM
- Printing press for a lot of extra commerce
- Gunpowder for later cannons
- Mil tradition if we can trade/research Nat and trade/demand Music in time.

Having paper for the AIs is far from having Education, so we might have time to lib MilTrad. We just need to almost research Lib, and later we can just pop it for any of the above techs if somebody gets Edu. They don't have too many cities, and separated, so they shouldn't be too fast.

What we shouldn't do is lib Nat. That we can trade for or demand in a succesful war.

If we think that this will be a long game (that ice looks suspicious), then we should lib Econ or PP for the economic boost. (and research the other one immediately after that)

 

[Shaandore]

Is the Globe ready? If so, we can start crazy whipping. Only work tiles that give food surplus. Whip a treb/Landschnekt/whatever every 2nd turn. Benefit

 

[BLubmuz]

Revolt to mercantilism.
It's 1 turn of anarchy and the foreign trade routes are not much. I think we can do it this turn. There're only 2 Kn 1 turn to completion and they move fast.

Build a settler to settle pig, dye, rice banana. We will need the city so we mgiht as well get it sooner to get use of the dye resource. It has plenty of food and will be productive pretty shortly.
So you prefer a worse city with a unique resource. I think it's the right thing to do.
But we don't need just a settler: missionary, LB and Xbow and at least 2 workers before the settler arrives.

I think we should lib printing press. Libing nationalism is a good choice as well. I just like rifling a little better.
Rifling is out of reach like Astro.
PP will give us 26 cpt if we're working all our villages and towns. But Econ will give us a free GM.
Mainz can generate a GS in 16 turns if we run 2 sci there and his priority is PP and he can bulb it almost to completion.
Also a GM can bulb part of PP, but it's a waste.

China is pretty happy with us. He may enter the war if Khmer bribes him. We can bribe him to declare on Japan and he will cause no problems.

Or beg for a small sum of gold the turn we just before declare on Sury.

We can also steal compass from him. Not a priority tech but harbour would be great in Vienna. The harbour in Vienna will probably pay for the tech by itself in less then 40 turns.

Sure, we can do this.

Is the Globe ready? If so, we can start crazy whipping. Only work tiles that give food surplus. Whip a treb/Landschnekt/whatever every 2nd turn. Benefit

Yes and already working

Some thought about what to do with our victims:
According to F8 we own 20.50% of land and Toku 12.00%. So we can assume that Sury, Qin and Peter have less than him.

The limit is 64%

A good rule i learnt in my time games is that you must stay some 15% below the limit to be safe by the end. Unless you keep some AI just to limit your borders. Let's assume to arrive around 64*.85=55%

At present our 20% with all Sury, Qin and Peter lands will bring us over 50%.

The new city to reach Peter and Hammer will give us some more. But do you want to raze the Pyramids and the HG (mainly the HG)? And we must keep Khoisan (the barb city on Russian coast) to have a foothold.

We need the barb cities S of Peter to reach the SW corner. So, i'm afraid that all those nice riverside mature cottages will be pillaged after we raze all the Russian cities. Maybe the eastermost one can be kept, nothing more.

Just to start discussing now an argument fo later, much later. But this is probably another trap the mapmaker prepared.