SGOTM 17 - Maple Sporks

[astre]

thanks DS for screens

anyway, here in the ppp number 27...

T40 w0+w1 chop 1E of cow, cancel actions, w2 farming (already done)
T41 if barb did not move: w0 goes 1E of copper city
if barb did move: w0 finishes chop (20h) and all further actions of w0 are delayed by one turn.
w1 to hill 1W of pig city, w2 1N
T42 w0 chop 1E of copper city, w1 1E of pig city road, w2 chop
T43 w0 chops, w1 finish road, w2 still chops
T44 w0 finishes chop, w1 do to railed copper, w2 finishes chop
T45 (settler, axe and library finished) w0 go on cow or finish chop if border poped 1 turn earlier that i tought, w1 moving, w2 1S farming banana, axemen go finish the archer
T46 (copper city border pop) w0 pasture pig, w1 moving, w2 finishes farm

Phant switch to settler now, 14 hpt towards it.
- T44 end, it has 3*14h+45h (chop w2)=87/100 settler -> settler ready IBT T44/T45
- T45 put overflow into settler
-T46 we will see if we continue settler or finish granary

Copper (in case of no barbarian in sight)
- 46/30 monument now, let's work cow for growth:
- T45 axe-> axe
- T47 axe 2 finished

PIG:
-44 pop gained, whip library (we gain nothing to whip it previous turn)
-45 Start archer (3 turns)

Science put 100% science t45
the road of w1 is to gain 1 turn before settlement. then the worker is one turn ahead of settler to be able to mine copper the turn of settlement.

 

[Iagoc]

Iagoc, yes, it does work like that.

So if we're going double settler, does that mean that if we whip the first settler the second settler gets 2.25 times the overflow?

(whip 30 hammers = 45 hammers due to whiping settler, overflow 45 hammers=67 hammers due to building settler)

Or is that just wishful thinking?

 

[astre]

Just tested it.
If we do turn 44 whip then chop lead to 38 overflow aka 57 for next setler (settlers turn 45 and 49)
if we delay it by one turn, that mean 48 overflow and 72 for settler (settlers turn 46 and 49)
if we delay it by 2 turns, 57 overflow and 87.5 for settler (settlers turn 47 and 49)
we can notice that there is no acceleration of second settler if we try to optimize this process.

did not try the double chop same turn. Tell me if i should.

 

[nocho]

There's no denying the screenshots. I'd say it has to do with the chop but looks irrefutable indeed.

PPP looks quite allright. I'd maybe camp the fur first before mining the copper. With fur we grow quicker and it's extra commerce and happy.

If we go settler-settler in phant, I'd consider 2nd chop with w2. Although we could whip the second settler possibly as that pop should equate to 45h for settler and we'll have farm done when we whip (if we indeed farm instead of second chop with w2).

 

[astre]

right, the fur is on forest while in my test game it is on jungle


I've continue to test a bit this overflow mechanism:
in reality the second whip/chop is not counted in the first multiplier but only in exceed overflow.
I did the test with previous PPP then whip the second setler i come at the same turn as all before: turn 49.
smae result with chop delayed by 2 turns to get max overflow then whip next turn: settler 2 arrive at t 49.
In the end, I think we just should let first settler come out as fast as possible as in the original plan.

 

[Sengir]

Production lessons ahead:

All production is added at the end of turn. If you build a wonder, and you've accumulated enough hammers to have it done in 1t it will finish the moment you press enter (you can check the log for that). Similarly, units with 1t left to finish will be done before anyone else gets to move, making it possible to whip a last minute defender, or just produce it naturally.

About chopping, multipliers and overflow: every turn, production is calculated with the production modifiers for the item you are building at that moment. However, if there's overflow, the amount of hammers that will be available, will be the base amount of hammers, modified by whatever multipliers you get towards building the next item.

Example time:
Let's say we're building a settler, and we're at 70 hammers, with 6hpt, before multipliers. We've got a 50% bonus to settler building, giving us 9hpt. That's not enough to finish it, so we decide to put a chop into it as well, adding another 30h, or 45h after multipliers. Thats 54h, putting us at 124h for the settler, or an overflow of 24h right? Well, no: That 24 hammers went through the multiplier, so the base amount of hammers is 24/150*100 = 16.
Now, if we'd build another settler, the overflow would be multiplied (as would the base hammers), giving us 24h. But if we'd build another unit, we would only have a lousy 16 hammers instead. Unless we have build Heroic Epic in which case it would have 32h of course.

TL;DR:
Production is calculated at the end of turn; overflow is most useful if it goes into something that has modifiers of its own, so its best to put most of the hammers of a chop into a settler, rather then producing overflow.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

Astre, I believe you will play tonight? As I'm up next, and I will be away from Thursday evening until Monday on business travel, I'd like to pick it up quickly after your turnset tonight, and see if we can reach a consensus for me to play Thursday during the afternoon.

If not, It's better I swap with the next person in line (nocho)

 

[nocho]

@astre, I'd definitely try to get the 1st settler asap. Not sure though whether to finish 2nd settler with whip or chop.

@Sengir, interesting lessons. I'll have to take your word for it, but I'd swear there are circumstances where your prod queue is not handled first when you press enter. Maybe I'm confused with a previous version.

@DS, if indeed astre plays tonight I guess there's time enough to discuss stuff before you playing on Thursday. Otherwise we'll swap.

 

[astre]

will play in 1 hour

thanks for the lesson sengir

 

[Sengir]

@Sengir, interesting lessons. I'll have to take your word for it, but I'd swear there are circumstances where your prod queue is not handled first when you press enter. Maybe I'm confused with a previous version.

That would be Civ3, where wonders could be snatched from you with only 1 turn remaining.


And I'd chop the second settler, regrowth is just too slow IMHO

 

[astre]

all went fine, the barb axe did went away first turn.
I left some options open:
w0 can chop 1E of cow or start pasture
w2 can chop for settler or go camp (I bet chop will win)
did not change science % as numbers were diferent as in my test game but can be changed now.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Maple_Sporks_SG017_BC0475_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Here is your Session Turn Log from 625 BC to 475 BC:

Turn 90, 625 BC: You have constructed a Monument in Copper city. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 91, 600 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 92, 575 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Caste System!

Turn 94, 525 BC: PhantCity can hurry Settler for 1⇴ with 8ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 94, 525 BC: PigCity has grown to size 4.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for PhantCity.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Copper city.
Turn 94, 525 BC: You have trained a Settler in PhantCity. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of PhantCity are about to expand.
Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of PigCity are about to expand.
Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of Copper city are about to expand.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Copper city will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of PhantCity have expanded!
Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of PigCity have expanded!
Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of Copper city have expanded!

Turn 96, 475 BC: PigCity can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 25ℤ overflow, 3ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Copper city has grown to size 2.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Copper city can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 31ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.

 

[nocho]

Looks good! You're done? In that case, DS up and me on deck.

Note Mansa's CoL! He must have some golds or gems or something...

 

[Sengir]

Looks good from the logs indeed, can't access the save yet (computer is back, but I have to reinstall civ, which is quite a bit of work on a mac). So some screenshots of our lands would be welcome.

 

[astre]

yep i'm done
one global picture

 

[DwarfSleepy]

looking good. I got it. Will start looking around and working on a plan.

Congratulations on the football nocho! I'll see how distraught the other side is when I'm in Milano next weekend (together with a Spanish colleague, I wonder if he's safe there...)

 

[nocho]

Not really my merit, but still thanks! If you're colleague is from Madrid there'll be no problem. Otherwise hang out with Interistas only!

Good luck with the plan, seems a bit more straightforward now.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

Here we go:

Hire 1 scientist in Pigcity. When growth in 4 turns, hire 2nd scientist
100% deficit research for 10 turns should net us IW (with 2nd scientist, without that we would need 11t)

Settler 3 goes to Rice, settles on top
Worker 1 makes furcamp, then coppermine (unless IW already, then Pigpasture first), then Pigpasture

Peninsula warrior (warrior 1) has two choices:

1. spawnbust SE corner, which is still not safe from barb spawning
2. Go to Mansa and beyond to scout

Option 2 has my preference. We can always emergency whip/chop an Axe or Archer in Phantcity if a barb does show up, and archer3 from pigcity can go there and be there 1 turn earlier then warrior

Worker 2 (near Phantcity): chop forest into settler where now. Then farm banana, then camp unforested Ivory

Axe 1: guards/spawnbusts doublebananapig city until settler arrives, then guards railroad approach

Worker 0 (near Coppercity): Pasture S-pig (before jungle grows!), then chop forest on doublebananapig cityspot as not to loose the hammers when settling

Axe2 (to be built in Copper): go west to spawnbust and kill wounded barb archer (let archer attack our axe)

Archer0 (in coppercity) goes north to spawnbust

Archer3 (to be built in Pigcity) goes to spawnbust SE corner

Settler 4 settles doublebananapig city inbetween two bananas

City builds:
Phantcity: Settler, Granary, Archer
Coppercity: Axe, Granary
Pigcity: Archer, Granary, LH
To be settled Rice-spot: Granary
To be settles in betweenbanana-spot: granary

 

[Iagoc]

Peninsula warrior (warrior 1) has two choices:

1. spawnbust SE corner, which is still not safe from barb spawning
2. Go to Mansa and beyond to scout

Option 2 has my preference. We can always emergency whip/chop an Axe or Archer in Phantcity if a barb does show up, and archer3 from pigcity can go there and be there 1 turn earlier then warrior

Keep in mind that if the barb spawns on the railroad he will be in furcity in just 2 moves. I agree that the war wont be much help anyway, against axes, but we should consider moving in a unit a bit closer, at least until fur is whipping size.

Edit: I think we should go monument first in the new cities for the earlier border pop.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

A barb cannot cross the ocean on the rr just as we can't. So fur city is safe from barbs

Edit: don't agree with monument for early border pop: both new cities have enough resources in inner ring (or in neighbouring culture in case of pig)

 

[nocho]

I'll look in more detail later, for now some considerations:

- I think we need more workers very soon, more so with IW on the horizon (you'll play until IW I guess, DS?)

- I'd keep the warrior on the peninsula. To weak to scout, too far away too. OTOH an excellent MP for fur city

- Agree that monuments are not needed for fur and doublebanana. Enough good tiles available and in both we want a library. So I'd go granary-library in both.

- DS, as you're away for the weekend, extra homework for you for tomorrow. What'd you tech after IW?