SGOTM 17 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

adrianj · May 26, 2013

The teleportation *could* still work.

The key will be to have a city that is closer to the stack than Gold City or Hangzhou, and that city is West relative to the ice/mountains. The planned city for building Peter's galleys is a candidate. This assumes we use only our own cities for "nearest home city".

From reading the above quote, I get the impression that "nearest home city" could also be an AI who we have Open Borders with. In that case, the nearest home city would surely be one of Churchills. In this case, we could make the jump in two steps:

1. OB with Churchill and take Ceasefire with Toku while standing in Toku's lands close to Kyoto or Osaka. This will hopefully teleport us to Churchill.

2. Move the stack to the north of Churchill's lands, and cancel OB (or DOW), this will hopefully teleport us to the empty jungle area.

Make sure we do this with 1 or more settlers. And we use Universal Suffrage to buy our ships and any extra units.

Edit: C63 - with your little test game, could you modify it so that there is another AI on the other side of the teleporting stack?

adrianj · May 26, 2013

Now, reading it AGAIN... the teleport doesn't strictly go in a straight line. It goes to whichever tile has the lowest 'Jump-Cost'. Ie, if the distance is small, then the units could indeed travel away from the home city. So, Sleepless' idea to jump across the mountain way at the south could work.

But, jumping INTO Churchill's lands doesn't solve our problem, because then we would just get teleported out again when we do declare on him.

The attached screenshot shows some possibilities to teleport into the jungled area. In this example, we would put our stack 4N of the rice (yellow circle) and hope to jump to the unclaimed jungle tile 2W1N of it. I think this sort of outcome is better, because a) we don't need to muck around teleporting into Churchill's lands first, and b) we could do it sooner since we don't need to work our way through Toku first. Doing it sooner gives us more time to amass galleys+units for the attack on Churchill.

Ronnie1 · May 26, 2013

Anandre said:
I hear my name and am thus summoned!

So looking like 2 more turns from me? Scouting north to get vision north of the peak, moving all available troops to the tile with 1 wounded Cuir on it, then smashing the first city in 2 turns (current turn = turn 0), upgrading all troops to Combat 2/3, a few Cannons to Accuracy, and some to CR2? The rest of the discussion thus far has been speculation based on moving to Churchill, from what I gather.

No, moving now and smashing next turn is better. You will have all those cannons (more than enough have accuracy already), the 4 Ciurassiers with them and the 15 or so Cuirassiers that will be 1 tile behind. Should be enough to burn it, if not, there will be nearly nothing left the next turn.

Sleepless · May 26, 2013

I've no problem with you playing a couple more Anandre. There is quite a lot of MM to do around the cities though.

I'd start from the top and look at all the cities..

e.g Timbuktu can take some of the plains cottages from Djenne instead of specs. Nagara Jayasri has an artist spec should be changed. Lots of production tiles can be changed to commerce tiles especially in Surys and Qins lands when they come out of revolt.

Atm any units which need upgrading I would hold back in Hangzhou if we want to upgrade them. Some of the workers in Chinese lands should go towards the roads for peter and we need to remain focused on that as well.

Good Luck..

Conquistador 63 · May 26, 2013

Also I'd speed up our GPP rate in Taoism (can give us a GP in 2t) and CC, so we could keep running a Golden Age.

I think the spy could move NE/NE/NW ending up current turn on the top of the jungle hill uncovering more of the land.

@adrianj, not sure I understood your request re. Test map. You want another AI to the W of Churchill there?

Finally,

2. The game calculates the jump-cost for all valid jump target tiles (they need to be revealed and accessible), all distances are calculated as plotDistances.

Do Churchill's lands or even the jungle to his N fulfill the "accessible" condition?

Ronnie1 · May 26, 2013

Sleepless said:
I've no problem with you playing a couple more Anandre. There is quite a lot of MM to do around the cities though.

I'd start from the top and look at all the cities..

e.g Timbuktu can take some of the plains cottages from Djenne instead of specs. Nagara Jayasri has an artist spec should be changed. Lots of production tiles can be changed to commerce tiles especially in Surys and Qins lands when they come out of revolt.

Atm any units which need upgrading I would hold back in Hangzhou if we want to upgrade them. Some of the workers in Chinese lands should go towards the roads for peter and we need to remain focused on that as well.

Good Luck..

I agree with this, every city needs looked at and evaluated based on purpose.

No comments on stopping unit builds and building wealth?

adrianj · May 26, 2013

Kakumeika learned in a prior SGOTM that it's possible to teleport to entirely different continents. The measure for "accessible" isn't about how to get to the tile, but rather simply a matter of if a unit can stand on it.

Eg, If we had OB with Churchill, then his tiles would be accessible. Mountains/Water not accessible for obvious reasons. An AI we don't have OB with not accessible. The AI we are signing ceasefire/peace with not accessible. It's unclear to me about 3rd party AIs that we are already at war with.

Regarding a test game - I just thought adding a bit more detail to your simple test map to more closely mimic what's actually happening in our game. Is there a Churchill AI in the test game? Make sure there are some unfogged tiles to reveal some of Churchill's cities, and also some empty tiles E of Toku.

Try the teleport test with A) no OB with Churchill, B) with OB. In the first case, I would expect our units to teleport to the E of Toku, ie, towards our own city. In the second case, I would expect our units to teleport toward Churchill.

@Ron - re stopping unit builds for Wealth. I agree. Cities that have just completed a unit could build Wealth. In any case, :gold:

will be essential to buy things under US, eg, galleys. Our Heroic Epic Capital city should stay on units though.

Anandre · May 26, 2013

So switching all mainland cities to Wealth except for HE, and building units in Sury/Qin's lands, or keep them on Wealth as well? I'll probably play in 14-16 hours unless I get the go-ahead tonight, which I'll play in a few hours then. It just seems like there's a lot of discussion still going on, so I want to make sure we're agreed on everything before I continue.

Ronnie1 · May 26, 2013

I would build wealth everywhere except Aachen(HE).

If the majority wants to wait on a civics switch until we are sure we need to start teching again, then I am fine with that. Main thing for me is that proper care is taken to micro manage our fairly big empire at this point. That's why I suggested going to shorter turnsets.

adrianj · May 26, 2013

There's a lot of discussion going on about how to get to Churchill. The details about building Wealth, etc are dependent on how we do that.

I think we could have a better discussion after the Spy has moved toward the ice. Hence I'd be happy for you to complete the current turn (moving spy and everything else), and for next turn move only the spy.

Mainland cities that have just completed their build (excepting HE) could build Wealth. Unit builds in Suryqinland sounds fine to me. When we eventually switch to US we could rush them to completion.

Conquistador 63 · May 26, 2013

Not sure about stopping unit builds, do we already have enough troops to take on Peter? We didn't last time I checked.

Unfortunately I'm now away from civ PC until Wednesday night, so can't fine tune the test map but it is easy enough to do it for anyone who is able and willing.

McArine · May 26, 2013

adrianj said:
There's a lot of discussion going on about how to get to Churchill. The details about building Wealth, etc are dependent on how we do that.

I think we could have a better discussion after the Spy has moved toward the ice. Hence I'd be happy for you to complete the current turn (moving spy and everything else), and for next turn move only the spy.

Mainland cities that have just completed their build (excepting HE) could build Wealth. Unit builds in Suryqinland sounds fine to me. When we eventually switch to US we could rush them to completion.

Conquistador 63 said:
Not sure about stopping unit builds, do we already have enough troops to take on Peter? We didn't last time I checked.

Unfortunately I'm now away from civ PC until Wednesday night, so can't fine tune the test map but it is easy enough to do it for anyone who is able and willing.

I'm good with moving the spy and the units.
I don't think we should start building wealth in mainland. I'd let our market/grocer/bank cities build wealth, and keep the rest on units, untill we're sure we can take Peter.

Ronnie1 · May 26, 2013

adrianj said:
There's a lot of discussion going on about how to get to Churchill. The details about building Wealth, etc are dependent on how we do that.

I think we could have a better discussion after the Spy has moved toward the ice. Hence I'd be happy for you to complete the current turn (moving spy and everything else), and for next turn move only the spy.

Mainland cities that have just completed their build (excepting HE) could build Wealth. Unit builds in Suryqinland sounds fine to me. When we eventually switch to US we could rush them to completion.

I like the everything up to moving the spy at the start of the next turn. See below for unit build comments.

Conquistador 63 said:
Not sure about stopping unit builds, do we already have enough troops to take on Peter? We didn't last time I checked.

Unfortunately I'm now away from civ PC until Wednesday night, so can't fine tune the test map but it is easy enough to do it for anyone who is able and willing.

Not knowing exactly what Peter has to defend with, it is hard to say exactly what we need. But my rough calculations put us at 150+ mobile units. That seems like a lot to me. :dunno:

Anandre · May 27, 2013

Welp... time to get to teleporting, it looks like. The only city I set to Wealth was Timbuktu. I set Qin/Sury cities to prioritizing commerce tiles. One of the cities in the SE corner has a boatload of Scientists.

Spoiler :

Sleepless · May 27, 2013

I don't think we have any units for Peter at the moment. The road and load city still need to be built. Plenty of workers in China for that. Though they will need protection. Remembering barbs can zoom down the rail lines as well.

Think a reasonable assumption is 40 units for Peter. Less if we want to take our time and reduce defences etc. Plenty of pillage gold to be had in his lands though. Also we will need a Medic for this stack.

If we can get the teleport to work I would look at having about 60 units for churchill. Bearing in mind we can't re-inforce and if we kill most of Toku's units before taking a ceasefire will be easy to mop him up a turn or so later.

@Anandre - remember we can pillage Tokus tiles. Just don't do it in a stack as we don't want to lose the roads.

So I would like to keep building troops in most of our cities atm.

It might also be an idea to concentrate our cities on growth especially if we want to tech later. Most of our cities are food heavy and with Caste should be able to run 5 scientists with rep that is 30 beakers per city. Very approx 1000 beakers per turn with the slider at 0. Sure we can do alot better with MM etc.

Anandre · May 27, 2013

I was going to pass it off, actually. I don't have any significant playtime in the next 2 days, unfortunately.

We have two Medics - 1 in Hangzhou, 1 in Toku's land.

Sleepless · May 27, 2013

Missed Anandre's post. If teleporting works looks like that would be the way to go. If not paras.

McArine · May 27, 2013

I tried a quick test with C63's test game.

I moved the stack further north, so we could jump onto unclaimed terrain.
Placed a city in roughly the same area as our load city will be, and took cease fire.
That gave me the same straight line from the load city, to the edge of the water/ice, where it stopped, with clear view to the other side. Bummer :cry:

Apparently the game can figure out that across the water is not accessible.

I then redid it, with added mountains. And then it worked, apparently the game can't figure out that the water/ice/mountain is equally inaccessible. :lol:

I don't know if that's a bug, or it's working as intended. But I think we should report it to Alan, just to make sure we can use it.

Save is right before the city is settled.

Sleepless · May 27, 2013

I know in a recent GOTM there was an island surrounded by mountains so totally inaccessible. People got units into it by closing borders and transported across the water/mountains as the nearest available square. So certainly possible in vanilla version to do this.

adrianj · May 27, 2013

@McA - can we get a screenshot of your test situation (I can't open any saves from this computer)

Could we also get a more zoomed out screenshot of the area around Kagoshima? As zoomed out as possible while still seeing Gridlines please. Edit: Use the 'Field-of-view' slider if it helps. Would be great if Warwick and Gold City are both in the frame.

:lol:

Toku built the Colossus in a city, indeed entire empire, that can't work any coastal tiles...

Edit: Has anyone looked at the ice/coast to the north of the jungle lands? Can we get units in through there?

SGOTM 17 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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