Ship tactics help? MOO2

[haphazard1]

I second many of the points made by scratchthepitch.

I like the creative trait, because it lets you play with the most toys. But it is not necessary. I strongly agree with not taking penalties to your basic economy -- food, production, or cash.

For early combat ships, your main choice is between missiles and beams. If you have a decent computer to get accuracy up to at least 100%, beams are probably better. Otherwise missiles give you better odds of actually doing damage but if you don't finish the enemy fast you will be out of shots.

If you go for beams, I like mass drivers for the longer range without damage penalties. Stay back and try to snipe the enemy. If you go for missiles, I usually try for fewer larger volleys -- lots of 2x racks rather than larger racks. If you get into an extended slugging match with missiles you are doomed anyway, so try to overwhelm the enemy with the initial volleys.

Scan the enemy ships to see what they have. The AI sometimes creates weird designs, and some ships may be significantly greater threats than others. Pick your targets accordingly.

Tactics are important -- concentrate your fire and wipe out one target before shifting to the next. Especially if the enemy has shields, you need to pound those down and then pour in the fire before they regenerate. Manouver to hit the same "side" of their shields repeatedly, and to deny them the chance to do the same thing to your own ships (assuming you have shields). Paying the cost to give your weapons full directional capability (or at least 270 degress) helps a lot, so you can turn your ship to present a full-strength shield side to the enemy and still fire.

Another thing to watch out for early is military leaders -- you can see these if you scan the enemy ships. If the enemy has a leader with a big defense bonus on a small ship, you are never going to hit it with beam weapons. If you get a chance at a leader yourself, they can make a big difference in early effectiveness.

All the above applies mostly to the earlier phases of the game -- more options (fighters, boarding shuttles, etc.) are available later. I hope this helps. MOO2 is a fantastic game and I have had many, many fun hours playing it. I hope you can master combat and enjoy the game as well.

 

[vmxa]

BTW you can see a leader without a scan. It will have an L. This is usually the first target. Early missle ships need to use bays properly. You want to put a junk missile in the first bay and the better racks after that. The reason is the first wave is likely to get shot down, at least in part.

I already mentioned you want to have a dither ship to leave after the missle boats fire and retreat. Often a scout will do the job as you shold only have 2 rounds of missiles. They are do the job or not.

 

[vmxa]

Ok I started Monday night on the Orion run for you. First off I think it is quite foolish to post that I lied when I said I send 6 battleships. Well you actually use the BS epithet, but is essentially saying I am a prevaricator. That lacks validity coming from someone that does not know the game.

You add in the fact that my posting in your thread was geared to help you get better, it is offensive. So here is the save for your proof. BTW I am not going to hold any animosity for your churlishness.

I took the settings that you were using as I understood them:
-GC -Spy +P Feud Sub Lith/ Average level, Huge map, Avg planets, 8 players and avg tech start.

I will say I have never used avg tech start. I have done a couple of advance tech, 99.3% or more I use Pre-warp.

I decided that it makes no sense to use those traits as they would not fit in an Orion run game worth a darn. I used the same game settings, but changed the player stuff.

Repulsive, -SA, -SD, UniTol, LHW, +P so some are the same.
Start game. We get a mixed bag, good enough planets, but are off to the far right of the map. This means it will be hard to find Orion.

If this was Impossible I would worry that they would beat me to it. I suspect that at this level that is not an issue. So we have two additional planets. I prefer 3. They are good planets, but I would like an Ultra Rich. Here is what they are:
Large Tundra Rich, Large Terran Abundant. So pretty good all in all.

As a Unitol I sell my barracks as it is of no use, until you want transports. You save the maint and get the gold right now. A barrack is only useful if you have a morale penalty government. I get 30 gold for rax and move all scientist to production to build the colony base.

I may need to change some things as I am not sure what techs I get to start. The fact that flight is already known is going to mean contacts sooner. Normally I research frieghters to be able to feed other planets. Here we have that tech, so Research Labs will be first. Of course no research is being done right now.

Send out the boats, not use to starting with ships either. I even send out the colony. It only has one place it can reach anyway. It has three planets, colonize one and put on housing.

3500.7 Colony base used to colonize one of the planets and we start another CB.
3501.4 we hire Labor leader Crassis. We have both planets colonized now and put pop to research.
3511.3 meet Trilarians, I have 4 systems. Just researched planetary comps. No warships yet. Trils have only class III that I want. I put 2 spies on them for now.
3513.4 meet the Rocks as I found 5th system. I keep stealing junk from Trils, will take a look at the Rocks.
3516.6 Antie coming at Qui. We have 6 systems.
3518.6 Meet Mrrs, colonize 7th system. Working on my first combat ship.
3519.3 Anties attack me again.
3519.7 scout runs into the guardian.
3522.1 anties come, but not for me this time.
3522.4 invade a Rock planet. Need to get closer to Orion to reach it.
3523.7 capture another Rock planet.
3525.1 capture Cryslon.
3525.7 4 anties hit Rav, but no harm. BTW no ships at the planet.
3525.8 killed off AlGAST.
3525.9 killed off Gorra.
3526.0 killed off Zak. Trying to get the final ships upgraded for Orion. The
fleet is on its way to Tsugi, next to last planet of Coids.
3526.1 busted Tsugi and lose contact with the Rocks. Fleet heads to refit.
3526.4 Emo was hired, too late to matter.
3526.6 Trils eliminated the Rocks.
3527.1 6 BB's head for Orion.
3527.2 Kill Guardian, no loses and Get Class VII as free tech. X-armor one of the antie techs. Done playing now.

The save is prior to the arrival on Orion. It needs to be renamed to gam.

 

[vmxa]

It was really sad how poorly the AI was doing. The rocks never even attacked me. No other AI made any runs at me and I had no ships most of the game. I think the game has to be played on Impossible for any fun.

The difference would be that I probably would have been at least blockaded. I would have had to fight off some ships and my troops would not have been enough as I only used 2 transports at any point in time.

 

[scratchthepitch]

concentrate your fire and wipe out one target before shifting to the next.

That's what I do, but a lot of the time I don't destroy them initially, but knock out their computers or reduce their weaponry to a level they no longer are much of a threat, then move on to the next. The AP/AF mass driver is good for that in the early stages of the game, later, the ion pulse cannon is much better. In the early game I will usually try and board and capture ships that are rendered immobile, if I can. Later on, when I have better capture tech, I usually try and capture as many as I can. Those not worth keeping after wards, I scrap for ready cash, and tech if they're higher up the ladder than I.

It was really sad how poorly the AI was doing. The rocks never even attacked me. No other AI made any runs at me and I had no ships most of the game. I think the game has to be played on Impossible for any fun.

The difference would be that I probably would have been at least blockaded. I would have had to fight off some ships and my troops would not have been enough as I only used 2 transports at any point in time.

I've found the only way to play the game is on impossible, otherwise the AI hardly does anything. But even on impossible I've had games, in which there were no repulsives, and I kept all the AI races as friends throughout the game. But in other games, they were constantly at my throat. I think it's fairly random what the AI does at any playing level.

 

[vmxa]

For my lets get in a game of Moo2 game, as oppossed to let try this tactic or trait, I use Replusive. I do that because I do not want to be bothered with them asking for a trade or a treaty. All we can do as a Repulsive is war or peace and I pretty much never give peace once war is declared.

I just think it is too big of an advantage to the human to make deals with the AI and I do not want to take time to click out of their entreatments. Plus the -6 works so well.

 

[scratchthepitch]

vmxa

After our conversation a while back about repulsive, I tried a couple games as an uncreative repulsive. I had expected the other races would treat a repulsive player the same way repulsive AI treat a player. Their reaction gradually sliding down to hate with war following not long afterwards. That's not what happened. They treated the repulsive player same as they did a non repulsive player, so it wasn't really that much different of a game. Just no dip or tech trades.

 

[vmxa]

That is what I want, no diplo. They just make initial contact and very little else, till they declare or I declare.

 

[scratchthepitch]

That is what I want, no diplo. They just make initial contact and very little else, till they declare or I declare.

I like the dip. It's not much, but it does add a little bit more variety to the game. After playing a few slaughter 'em all as fast as I can games, that got boring. Now I like to fool around with different ideas, strategies, ship designs, and see what these do.

BTW, looking at your logs, I was reminded of a few things I've noticed in stock games. The Antarans always first appear around turn 150, and if you don't take Orion by turn 250, the AI will usually get it soon after that. Another thing, when you start knocking out the monsters, at the special systems, the AI will then start doing this also soon after. If they are not doing it already. It's best to hit these before turn 150, or even better, 120, to get there first. For that reason, I try and hit the monster systems in fast succession to nail as many as I can. One thing the AI never does in my games is go after the Antaran home world. I tried a test where I gifted the AI the necessary stuff so they could attack the Antaran home, but they never went for it, even after more than 200 turns.

 

[vmxa]

They will not go for Antie HW. I never paid attention to when they will go for Orion. I just know I cannot wait much beyond getting to tech 3500 and even that could be too late (well on Impossible).

I have been playing Moo2, since it came out. So I have no variety left. That is why I tend to get most of the techs and then just dust all the planets. I used to always want to get all the systems, but not anymore.

Moo1 is even more so as it came out in 1993. If I do not play a small map in Moo1 I no longer grab all the systems.

 

[Vineheart01]

ive started figuring it out but now 9/10 of the games i start i fall prey to something i dont think i can get around: computer advantage.

Without a doubt, the computer in this game has an econ advantage. How do i know?
I just played one on Large with Average planets, Hard difficulty, average tech. Race doesnt mean anything for what im about to say.
I start in the middle-ish of the map with 6 planets i can scout. One is Orion, so one scout down. The last one i scout has a 15pop, Average, Terran planet so of course i snatch that. Not even 4 turns later (as in 4 clicks of the turn button, as i think people dont count that as a turn) my only neighbor contacts me demanding said system. i of course say FU and WHAM 2 destroyers come take it.

Wtf?

I find it pointless to play a game where its entirely luck. Getting hit that damn early by a computer thats given advantages = done game, while not being hit that early means you win. I havent lost a game yet since i figured out some of the basics in ship design where i was left alone long enough to research more than research labs and hyp farms.

 

[scratchthepitch]

ive started figuring it out but now 9/10 of the games i start i fall prey to something i dont think i can get around: computer advantage.

Without a doubt, the computer in this game has an econ advantage. How do i know?
I just played one on Large with Average planets, Hard difficulty, average tech. Race doesnt mean anything for what im about to say.
I start in the middle-ish of the map with 6 planets i can scout. One is Orion, so one scout down. The last one i scout has a 15pop, Average, Terran planet so of course i snatch that. Not even 4 turns later (as in 4 clicks of the turn button, as i think people dont count that as a turn) my only neighbor contacts me demanding said system. i of course say FU and WHAM 2 destroyers come take it.

Wtf?

I find it pointless to play a game where its entirely luck. Getting hit that damn early by a computer thats given advantages = done game, while not being hit that early means you win. I havent lost a game yet since i figured out some of the basics in ship design where i was left alone long enough to research more than research labs and hyp farms.

Some of the races have vastly better industrial capacity than others. They can build faster and I suspect the logistics limits the player is saddled with do not apply to the AI. In a mod I made of this game, I've seen AI races with strong industrial ability with titans (yes, plural) before turn 100. I try not to tick those guys off early in the game.

Was your neighbor a repulsive race? By this I mean one that you can only declare war on, beg for peace with or surrender to. If so, then that's typical and the best counter is to build up a fleet early with whatever you got. If you appear weak, they'll pick on you. Best tactic on these guys is to go on the offensive early before they can build up and if it's too early for you to build up an invasion fleet, with transports, overwhelm them with cheap ships like missile/fighter carrying destroyers and nuke them to bedrock. You don't have to wipe them out entirely, but reduce their planets to just a couple of pop and destroy their buildings. This will knock them out of the early game because it will take them a long while to recover and become a threat again, if they ever do. They usually never recover.

If the race was a regular one and you could do trade/research treaties and non-aggression packs with, doing this goes a long way into getting friendly relations with them and avoiding their attacking you. Also it's important to not back the AI into a corner on the map where they have to go through you to expand, if they are one of the more aggressive races, because they will attack you to get out of that corner. I did this in a game to the Elerians before I had much of a fleet and they responded exactly like your neighbors did, even though I had all the treaties with them and their attitude was friendly on the attitude slider.

Another tactic to avoid those situations is to regularly trade techs with and/or gift things to nearby races before you get a fleet up. Call them up every so often and offer a trade. If that isn't a go, gift them something weak, like a low level, innocuous tech or the minimum cash.

While these tactics will reduce the random and not so random AI aggressions, they are not complete cures for it. In most games, you'll have to fight them, sooner or later, so the best medicine is having a larger fleet.

 

[Vineheart01]

No he wasnt repulsive, but he denied any treaties i tried to do prior to him stomping my face. Was the rat-face things whatever they were called (started with a G).

As for the comment regarding dealing with repulsives early on, yea that didnt work too well for me. Another game awhile ago i had Sakkra nearby that were repulsive. He had no armor or shield upgrades, so i decided to deal with him with my mirv nukes. Somehow, however, even tho i was puting everything i could into workers to get ships out, he was still pumping out battleships faster than i could pump out destroyers. Way faster. I'd clean out 5 battleships, and 3 more would be there a turn or two later. I couldnt get more than 1 of his colonies because the instant i went further he sends 3 transports and a couple battleships to one of my colonies.

I stand by what i said that computers have an advantage in this game to counter the fact they are an AI and lack proper responses to what im doing (as in, i have heavy shields so go for shield-piercings).

Not even fun anymore. And those treaties dont mean squat because soon as one race starts a war with me and i dont cream him instantly, everyone else joins in. And if its prior to turn 50 or so, i might as well just start over right there because i can barely defend 1 front, let alone 3. Damn blockades.

 

[scratchthepitch]

No he wasnt repulsive, but he denied any treaties i tried to do prior to him stomping my face. Was the rat-face things whatever they were called (started with a G).

The traders. They are not particularly good at anything else. When a race is stubborn about treaties, it means they want larger bribes for them. Try gifting them a tech or several before asking for a treaty. Sometimes the bribes demanded can be pretty steep. Save the game before negotiations and test out what they want first. Experiment. With Gnolams, the best treaty to ask for first is an economic treaty. Also sometimes a race is not willing to treaty right after you meet them but will be willing after a few turns. Other times they are willing at the start, but if you delay a few turns, they want a lot in the way of bribes.

As for the comment regarding dealing with repulsives early on, yea that didnt work too well for me. Another game awhile ago i had Sakkra nearby that were repulsive. He had no armor or shield upgrades, so i decided to deal with him with my mirv nukes. Somehow, however, even tho i was puting everything i could into workers to get ships out, he was still pumping out battleships faster than i could pump out destroyers. Way faster. I'd clean out 5 battleships, and 3 more would be there a turn or two later. I couldnt get more than 1 of his colonies because the instant i went further he sends 3 transports and a couple battleships to one of my colonies.

The AI has a habit of attacking one of your systems when you attack them. Build star bases, and if you can build planet defenses, those too, on your planets the AI can reach. These together are usually strong enough to hold off early AI battleships, if there is not too many. When attacking the AI, I try to take out their nearest first, to stop them having the range to get inside my core area, if that is possible.

If they can build fast, like Sakkra with their pop bonuses can, I go for their heavy producing planets with a lot of pop. If you can take out these quick, I mean reduce their pop and destroy their buildings, not invade them, you can knock out their ability to keep pumping out those battleships. Frequently their fleet plus star base and planet defenses are too strong to confront head on, so I will try and get them to split their forces. I'll go after a poorly defended planet first to draw the ships away from the heavily defended planet and destroy the ships. Then I will go after the planet with the star base and defenses.

Sometimes I also lure the AI to attack one of my planets by attacking them. When this works, I meet them and destroy them there, then continue the rampage through their systems. If the AI is stronger than I, which is in every game early on, I faint towards several of their systems to try and get them to split up so I can then deal with them peacemeal. Eventually they usually bite the lure.

I stand by what i said that computers have an advantage in this game to counter the fact they are an AI and lack proper responses to what im doing (as in, i have heavy shields so go for shield-piercings).

I agree, the AI has built in advantages the player doesn't and is very dim. In fact, I would not call it a real AI, but more a series of "if this, do that" commands, random roll results and cheats.

Not even fun anymore. And those treaties dont mean squat because soon as one race starts a war with me and i dont cream him instantly, everyone else joins in. And if its prior to turn 50 or so, i might as well just start over right there because i can barely defend 1 front, let alone 3. Damn blockades.

Some of these wars are caused by spies of another race framing you for their spying. Darlocks do this a lot, since they spy a lot. But if it's the player doing that trick, it's fun watching the others go to war against each other because of your spying. One way you can avoid the random war making of the AI is to reload the turn earlier and bribe them that turn. That stops it for that incident. The main weakness of this game is the AI randomness which is a result of the primitive AI employed in the game. It's an old game.

Some other ideas that will reduce the early game AI aggressiveness is use less AI players, so it takes longer to meet them and you can expand more first. You could also use a larger map setting, this has the same effect. I usually use 8 players and a huge map and not much usually happens before turn 100 in those games and I can usually get a decent base before the fireworks start. But also, they can flare up earlier too. It depends on the set up of the game. Some games turn out to be almost unwinable with the race one picked due to the set up.

 

[vmxa]

ive started figuring it out but now 9/10 of the games i start i fall prey to something i dont think i can get around: computer advantage.

Without a doubt, the computer in this game has an econ advantage. How do i know?
I just played one on Large with Average planets, Hard difficulty, average tech. Race doesnt mean anything for what im about to say.
I start in the middle-ish of the map with 6 planets i can scout. One is Orion, so one scout down. The last one i scout has a 15pop, Average, Terran planet so of course i snatch that. Not even 4 turns later (as in 4 clicks of the turn button, as i think people dont count that as a turn) my only neighbor contacts me demanding said system. i of course say FU and WHAM 2 destroyers come take it.

Wtf?

I find it pointless to play a game where its entirely luck. Getting hit that damn early by a computer thats given advantages = done game, while not being hit that early means you win. I havent lost a game yet since i figured out some of the basics in ship design where i was left alone long enough to research more than research labs and hyp farms.

I cannot recall the break down, but Harder makes research cost you the same and they pay less. Impossible give them another break point on techs. I seem to recall 33%, but cannot recall.

Avg tech start gives flight and some ships to all. So they find you sooner and see you are weak and them declare/demand. Starting in the middle means contacts are more likely and sooner.

Expanding prior to being able to defend will lead to blockades and starving or worse, that is how it goes. One way to trick them into thinking you are stronger is to make a couple of destroyers and with nothing in them, just basic hulls with an engine.

I have not used that in years, but it can be useful. They cost less and canbe made quicker.

 

[Jolly Rogerer]

Early in the game missle ships are probably best unless you have a good + to hit as a racial characteristic, as it can be hard to hit with beam weapons without good computers. Even mirved nukes can hold their own for a while. I usually have lighter ships (cruisers or even destroyers) and only pack two missles per battery. I fire them and then run to the back of the map and let the AI run into them. Once your missiles have hit, your ships can flee the combat.

The easiest race for me is:

Negatives: Repulsive, -to be hit, - to hit
Positives: Cybernetic, Tolerant, and the government type that boosts production and food by 50%.

This means you don't have to worry about pollution at all, and only have to spend about a third of the population producing food that other races do. It allows you to build spies and colony ships faster, which at higher levels is important. Also, cybernetic allows you to repair ships in combat and all ships are completely repaired after combat.